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Minara

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  11:39 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-The other comment that Allah and Shaitan both misguide, in context of the Quran and in my understanding, that is true. In Sura Baqara, it talks about the example of a knat, how small it is yet the unbelievers cannot even make it. Then it says the unbelievers are left wondering what this example means. And it says that Allah guides many through these examples, and Allah misguides many also with such examples, BUT He only misquides the fasiqeen.

Answer:- Please tell me which verse of Sura Bakara says so.

Minara
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  8:25 PM Reply with quote
Dear tilawat,

I explained before that Ka'ba and black stone do not have any divine attributes. If you ask the Ka'ba or the black stone to be an intermediary between you and Allah so the stone may help relay your request and prayer to Allah, because you think you are too lowly to directly ask Allah, then that is shirk - and that is what Hindus do. They ask they dieties to be intermediaries, to relay their requests to the one God.

The difference between Muslim and Hindu is Muslim directly asks God, but Hindu feels it is not his right place to directly ask God and that he must go through some agents - these agents are mere creations; either priests or idol statues.

You can clearly explain that to your Hinud friends, as I have done so in the past to my Hindu friends.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  8:27 PM Reply with quote
Dear Minara,

please refer to verse 26 of sura Baqara.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 01, 2006  -  1:39 AM Reply with quote
About which Islam are you talking dear Oosman?

You say "I explained before that Ka'ba and black stone do not have any divine attributes."
But Hadees says "Hajre Aswad Allah ka dahna haath he" (The black stone is Allah's right hand) - Muslim barawaait Abdullah bin Umar.
Do you notice, the black stone worshippers don' call in an Ajmi language but always call it by its arabic name 'Hajre Aswad' while they give 'Salat' a pagan name 'Namaz'.
I don't think you can divide human beings strictly in religious compartments. Have you read 'Bhagvad Gita' which is the most impotant book associated with the Hindoo religion. It teaches purest
of 'Touheed' and decries idol worship. Similar
is is the position with
the Quran. Do you think the so called Muslims have any thing to do with the book they claim to be theirs though it is actually meant for the entire humanity?
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, June 01, 2006  -  1:49 AM Reply with quote
Dear tilawat,

I do not judge other human beings like this. If a person says he is Muslim, he may well end up in Hell, and if a person says he is Hindoo, he may well end up in Paradise. This is up to Allah. My part is to be grateful to my Creator and ask Him to have mercy on me.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  9:28 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Dear Minara,

please refer to verse 26 of sura Baqara.


Salam,

Verse 2:26 does not say that Almighty Allah misguides anyone. The end of the concerned verse says “"What did GOD mean by such an ALLEGORY?" He misleads many THEREBY, and guides many thereby. BUT HE NEVER MISLEADS THEREBY EXCEPT THE WICKED”.

2:272

“You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides WHOEVER CHOOSES (to be guided)….”

10:25

GOD invites to the abode of peace, and GUIDES WHOEVER WILLS (to be guided) in a straight path.

16:93

Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He sends astray whoever chooses to go astray, and HE GUIDES WHOEVER WISHES TO BE GUIDED. You will surely be asked about everything you have done.

All The Above Verses Say That God Leads Astray Those Who Choose Themselves To Go Astray And Not The Ones Whom God Himself Leads Astray. Please read the following verses once again.

14:4

"We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them. GOD THEN SENDS ASTRAY WHOEVER WILLS (to be led astray), and guides whoever wills (to be guided). He is the Almighty, the Most Wise."

The evidence that God means that the ones who are led astray are those who choose by themselves to go astray (and not the ones whom God Himself leads astray) is given in the verse immediately preceding verse 4:

14:3

"They are the ones who give priority to this life over the Hereafter, repel from the way of GOD, and seek to make it crooked; they have gone far astray."

It is clear here that God is confirming that these people are going astray out of their OWN choice, it follows then in verse 4 where we are told that God leads astray those who choose themselves to go astray.

Minara.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  9:36 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

Dear Minara,

please refer to verse 26 of sura Baqara.


Salam,

Verse 2:26 does not say that Almighty Allah misguides anyone. The end of the concerned verse says '"What did GOD mean by such an ALLEGORY?" He misleads many THEREBY, and guides many thereby. BUT HE NEVER MISLEADS THEREBY EXCEPT THE WICKED'.

2:272

“You are not responsible for guiding anyone. GOD is the only one who guides WHOEVER CHOOSES (to be guided)….”

10:25

GOD invites to the abode of peace, and GUIDES WHOEVER WILLS (to be guided) in a straight path.

16:93

Had GOD willed, He could have made you one congregation. But He sends astray whoever chooses to go astray, and HE GUIDES WHOEVER WISHES TO BE GUIDED. You will surely be asked about everything you have done.

All The Above Verses Say That Anyone Can Go Astray Who Chooses Himself To Go Astray And Not The Ones Whom God Himself Leads Astray. Please read the following verses once again.

14:4

"We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them. GOD THEN SENDS ASTRAY WHOEVER WILLS (to be led astray), and guides whoever wills (to be guided). He is the Almighty, the Most Wise."

The evidence that God means that the ones who are led astray are those who choose by themselves to go astray (and not the ones whom God Himself leads astray) is given in the verse immediately preceding verse 4:

14:3

"They are the ones who give priority to this life over the Hereafter, repel from the way of GOD, and seek to make it crooked; they have gone far astray."

It is clear here that God is confirming that these people are going astray out of their OWN choice, it follows then in verse 4 where we are told that God leads astray those who choose themselves to go astray.

Minara.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  11:25 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

There is no rule existed in the Quran for observing missed prayer.

The Quran speaks of specific decreed times for each salat (4:103), yet many Muslims do their prayers outside their correct times in what they call (Salat Qada). Many Muslims have been falsely led to believe that if they miss any salat then they can still observe them at the end of the day collectively!!! Needless to say, such concession is not found anywhere in the Quran. Following such innovation is in violation of 4:103. Consequently, any salat that is missed is gone forever.

Minara
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  1:14 PM Reply with quote
Dear Minara,

It is not for you to judge if a salat that is missed is gone forever or not. It is for Allah to either accept it or reject it. We can hope that if a person's intentiont is good, then may Allah accept his/her late prayers.

Regarding your interpretation whether Allah misguides or not - your interpretation seems incorrect. Allah clearly says He misguides those who are fasiqeen, those who wrong themselves. If someone seeks the wrong path, then Allah shows it to him and that is how Allah leads him further away from the right path. The human makes the first choice, then Allah helps him in that direction - the direction can be good or bad depending on the person's choice.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  12:36 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

Pt.-I :- Brother, when Almighty Allah says in His Quran that He sets specific times for every prayer, then it is illogical to think that we can observe a particular prayer any time in the day if we could not offer it in its specified time!!

4:103 Once you complete your Salat, you shall remember GOD while standing, sitting, or lying down. Once the war is over, you shall observe the Salat; the Salat are decreed for the believers at specific times.

The last part of the verse 4:103 says that “salat are decreed for the believers AT SPECIFIC TIMES”. It clearly means that Salat must be observed its specified times e.g. Fajr salat must be offered at its specified time, Asr prayer must be offered its specific time etc..etc.. Nowhere in the Quran it is said that we should offer our missed salat at any time in the day. If any one follow such innovation then it will be in violation of 4:103. Any salat that is missed is gone forever. However, we can ask forgiveness from Almighty Allah for our missed prayer, but we cannot say that we should offer missed (Salat Qaza)prayer.

Pt.-II :- Brother, It seems to me that you did not read my earlier post carefully. I told you in my earlier post that “Anyone Can Go Astray Who Chooses Himself To Go Astray And Not The Ones Whom God Himself Leads Astray”(16:93, 2:272, 10:25)

14:4

"We did not send any messenger except (to preach) in the tongue of his people, in order to clarify things for them. GOD THEN SENDS ASTRAY WHOEVER WILLS (to be led astray), and guides whoever wills (to be guided). He is the Almighty, the Most Wise."

The evidence that God means that the ones who are led astray are those who choose by themselves to go astray (and not the ones whom God Himself leads astray) is given in the verse immediately preceding verse 4:

14:3

"They are the ones who give priority to this life over the Hereafter, repel from the way of GOD, and seek to make it crooked; they have gone far astray."

It is clear here that God is confirming that these people are going astray out of their OWN choice, it follows then in verse 4 where we are told that God leads astray those who choose themselves to go astray.

Regarding the verse 2:26 mentioned by you please read the following clarification;

Verse 2:26 does not say that Almighty Allah misguides people. The end of the concerned verse says '"What did GOD mean by such an ALLEGORY?" He misleads many THEREBY, and guides many thereby. BUT HE NEVER MISLEADS THEREBY EXCEPT THE WICKED'.

God Almighty, in order to explain to us certain truths, sometimes uses analogies in the Qur'an. If there is a need in the analogy to mention words like mosquito or fly, for instance, then a serious-minded reader would readily understand the idea in the right context. However, for someone who is inclined to reject the message without considering it properly, examples like these provide opportunities to make fun of it. Thus God Almighty says that the same message guides some and misguides others. However, the message doesn't misguide anyone but those who are transgessors: those who have spoiled their innate goodness by doing what their nature requires them to stay away from.

Let me give you an example of a passage where a fly has been mentioned in an illustration. The Qur'an mentions an example to illustrate the foolishness of those who worshipped statues instead of God Almighty in surah al-Hajj. (22:73) It says:

"O mankind! A similtitude is coined, so pay heed to it: Those on whom you call beside Allah will never be able to create even a fly though they combine together their abilities for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are both the seeker and sought."

In this verse the Qur'an has effectively used the example of a fly to help the reader understand the weakness of the polytheistic position of worshipping statues. However, those who are to be misguided by this passage might claim that there was no reason why there should be a mention of a creature as mean as a fly in God's message.

Obviously anyone who says that, has missed the point completely. However, he has missed the point not because there was anything wrong in the idea of mentioning a fly in the example, but because he didn't want to understand it, and in order to justify his position, he uses the mention of fly in the passage as an excuse. The Qur'an claims people who are thus misguided are those who have contaminated the innate goodness of their pristine nature by transgressing against Allah's will (which they clearly knew instinctively).


You told that ‘The human makes the first choice, then Allah helps him in that direction - the direction can be good or bad depending on the person's choice”.

My belief that Almighty Allah does not inspire/help the people to do something evil or bad. It is Satan who inspires for these evil or bad things. If your interpretation is right then please tell me -

“How is the misguiding by Satan different from the misguiding of Allah then”?

“If Allah can misguide a girl to fornicate as in this case , how is that different from Satan”?

I hope now you have understood my answer.

Minara.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  1:52 PM Reply with quote
Minara,

I guess there is no point arguing over this. I stand firm on my understanding as I do not see the rationale in yours.

First it is true that the prayers should be done at appointed times. But it never says that Allah will not accept late prayers, does it? So if a believer does late prayers and he/she has good intentions, so I pray that Allah may accept their late prayers. Better late than never. Allah is after all very merciful, perhaps out of His mercy He will accept it. In any case it is not for me or you to judge other people whether there later prayer is accepted or rejected, it is a matter that Allah will decide.

Regarding your other point, if someone does not wish to see the light, then Allah lets that person wander in the dark and this is how that person is led astray. Allah can chose to guide or misguide anyone He wants. If a person desires misguidance, then Allah lets him get astray, and if a person wants guidance, then Allah may guide that person. The person makes the choice, good or bad, Allah only helps that person in that choice.

Allah grants prayers and requests from everyone. That is what His attribute of Rahman means. It does not matter if the person asking for something is a Muslim or non-Muslim, is a good person or a very evil person - Allah still grants their prayers. If a bad person asks God that he wants to steal a diamond or kill someone's father, then Allah may accept his prayer and help him get his way. If someone wishes you harm, then Allah may accept their prayer and hurt you - in Urdu we call it 'nazr lug jana'. The point is that if a person wants misguidance, then Allah gives it to him.

So we should ask Allah to give us guidance with knowledge and hikmat!
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  12:19 AM Reply with quote
The discussion about the point whether Allah misguides people is futile. Some say He guides only the guided ones and not the Fasiq ones. Quran says "If you are in trouble seek help from patience and salat but Allah is only with the patient". Is it not a fact that Allah is not with 'Musallin' who call themselves 'Namaazi' and are always making a show of it as though it is an end in itself when actually it is a prayer for seeking guidance which accrding to Minara is available only to the already guided ones. In fact this is the riddle created by 'Monotheism' which combines power of good and evil in one God. It necessitated the creation of a sub-god called Satan to whom the power of evil has been delegated by God. But as delegation does not mean abnegation of power God does retain and exercise the power of evil himself, which power under biotheism is exercised by Ehramen. Monotheism gives rise to the riddle of Epicurus as given hereunder:-
"The Riddle of Epicurus
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

Have anybody an answer for it?
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  11:48 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Point-I, - “But it never says that Allah will not accept late prayers, does it? So if a believer does late prayers and he/she has good intentions, so I pray that Allah may accept their late prayers”.


Answer:- Almighty God says that Salat should be offered at SPECIFIC TIME. So the concept of Late Prayer (Kaza Namaj) is non-quranic. My belief is that Almighty Allah will not accept any non-quranic concept/idea regarding religion from any one. Almighty God says in His quran that “THE SALAT ARE DECREED FOR THE BELIEVERS AT SPECIFIC TIMES”(4:103). So no question will arise for LATE PRAYER because it is DECREED by Almighty God that we must offer our salat at its SPECIFIC TIME. We cannot make any religious rule/laws. We cannot say that praying late prayer is Islamic, because our only religious source/law is the Quran and IT says that we should offer our salat at its specific time. When God says that salat should be offered at specific time then it will illogical to think that we can offer it outside its mentioned time!!

Almighty Allah can not accept any religious idea which is derived from another source besides the only source i.e. Quran for ours. He says in the Quran that we should not accept any other source as source of law(religious) beside Quran.

Point – II, You said that “Allah grants prayers and requests from everyone. That is what His attribute of Rahman means”.

Could you please give me any reference from Quran that Almighty Allah responds or grants prayers of disbelievers?

You also said “If a bad person asks God that he wants to steal a diamond or kill someone's father, then Allah may accept his prayer and help him get his way. If someone wishes you harm, then Allah may accept their prayer and hurt you - in Urdu we call it 'nazr lug jana'”.

Is it your own thinking? Quran does not support your thinking brother. If yes, then could you please give me any reference from the Quran in support of your belief?

Also brother you could not yet to comment on my previous points, which were as follows;

“How is the misguiding by Satan different from the misguiding of Allah then”?

“If Allah can misguide a girl to fornicate as in this case , how is that different from Satan”?

Now please look my belief as follows;

"Say, ‘The Truth is from your Lord’: Let him who will, believe; and let him who will, reject…" (18:29, Yusuf Ali)

Now if Allah gives the freedom to accept or reject His guidance as is absolutely clear from the above verse, how can He also say that whomever He guides no one can misguide and whomever He misguides no one can guide? Clearly, these are two contradictory statements and Allah is beyond contradiction (4:82). There is nothing in the Quran which will lead to doubt (2:2, 32:2).

Does Allah personally misguide anyone? Most Muslims have one scapegoat which they always use when they are faced with such situations. They say, "Allah can do anything. He has unlimited power and control over everything and everyone." If that is the case, then why did Allah send His Book of guidance to us? Why did He send all His messengers? Why did our Prophet (S) face so many enemies in daily life as well as in the battlefields? Why did he (S) and the sahaba (R) suffer so much throughout their lives, for the sake of Allah? Allah has all the powers and he can do anything! He could have directly punished all the enemies of the Prophet (S)- but He didn’t. Instead, He ordered them to fight the enemies of Islam; to go to battlefields; and give their lives if need be- so much so, that they were warned that those who would try to run away from the battlefield will go directly to Hell (8:16).

Secondly, if Allah does anything (e.g. send anyone to Hell or Heaven as he pleases, give wealth or poverty to anyone, dignity or poverty to anyone, etc.), then why do human beings have to be held accountable for their deeds. It doesn’t seem fair and just or even logical to send someone to Hell if Allah misguided him or her. So is it not our duty to pause and seriously reflect on these extremely important questions impacting our lives—here as well as in the hereafter?

"Does Allah Misguide Anyone," can be cast as "Does the Quran Misguide Anyone?" This is because Allah has said whatever he had to say to humanity in its finality, totality, and completeness is in the Quran (6:115, 6:38, 10:37, 5:48). There will not come any other book from Allah, nor any other prophet from Allah after our last prophet (S) as declared by Allah in the Quran (33:40). Therefore, our relationship to Allah is only through His book, the Quran and nothing else.

Allah tells us the Quran was sent to guide and give glad tidings to the momineen (2:97). Those who will follow the Quran will benefit from it; those who will not, will suffer the consequences (10:108). Those who will follow it will be guided, and no one can misguide them, and those who will not follow it, will be misguided, and no one can guide them.

It is our choice whether or not to follow the Quran and after our choice is made, we get what we deserve. It is our choice which data to enter into the computer, and based on that, we get the right or wrong answer (guidance or misguidance). We cannot say the manufacturer magically chooses who will get right and who will get wrong answers. This is up to the person, and how he or she uses the computer. In the same way, Allah does not magically choose who will be guided or misguided, rather it is up to the person to choose the Quran as his guidance. If he chooses the Quran, he will be guided. If he chooses anything else, he will be misguided and no one can guide him. Thus; "Whoever follows the Quran will be guided by Allah, and no one can misguide, and whoever does not follow the Quran, will not be guided by Allah, and no one can guide." Allah does not directly do things for us; we have to do ourselves and follow his laws. Allah does not change our condition until we change our selves (i.e., change our psychology, mental attitudes and behavior) (13:11).

This is my understanding.

Minara
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  11:17 PM Reply with quote
Minara,

You seem very strick about relgion, such strickness leads to fundamentalism. You should be open to interpretations.

Point-I

If you think that Allah will not accept later prayers, then ok, you can think like that. But I think Allah can do as He pleases, and if He wants to accept late prayers, He can, He is master of His will - we cannot dictate our will to Allah.

Point-II

A believer does not have a monopoly over prayers. Allah grants prayers of all His creations, whether they believe or disbelieve does not matter. Every day million of Christians, Jews and other monotheists ask God for favors, and Allah grants their requests all the time. The grand-father of the prophet was an unbeliever, yet he prayed to God when Abraha was attacking with the elephants. Allah gives examples in the Quran like those who are caught in the storm and they invoke Allah, then Allah delivers them, but they are rebellious again (10.22).

And the most blaring example and proof that Allah grants prayers of the unbelievers is the fact that Allah granted the request of Shaitan that he be allowed to misguide humanity.

You should read some tafsir on the attributes of Allah 'Rehman' and 'Rahim'. One means He is merciful to everyone, believer or not; and the other attribute applies to His mercy to believers only on Judgement Day.

Point-III

quote:

How is the misguiding by Satan different from the misguiding of Allah then


Shaitan communicates to us by giving us suggestions. May be it is our own nafs. But the shaitan can give ideas that are meant to harm us. In your questions about the person who does zina, it is from suggestions from the inner self or shaitan or both.

An example of how Allah misguides the fasiqeen is from the example I gave earlier. Allah presents an example of a knat (a small flying bug). The unbelievers get confused by such examples and get more misguided. On the other hand the believers' faith only increases. A believer realizes that it is Allah's majesty that He created such a small insect that can fly. The believer glorifies Allah more. The unbeliever will say it is evolution and it happened by itself. The unbeliever will try to rationalize and find reasons for their false beliefs. The more examples you or Allah gives to the unbelievers, the more firm they will get in their unbelief. This is how Allah misguides them even more. Every time you call them, they go away more. It is by their own choice, so they are culpable for it and might get punished in the end. That is how Allah is just.

I hope it makes sense to you now.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 09, 2006  -  2:16 AM Reply with quote
Dear Oosman
Your reply to Point II of Minara is very pertinent. The saving of Kahba by Allah himself from Abraha, a Muslim of his time, when the same was a Mandir containing hundreds of idols raises many questions. Was Allah then only a national God of the Arabs? The Kahba was not a Kibla then even for the Arabs then why Allah protected its idols and their worshippers from a Chrischian Abraha (Muslim at that time)?
Remember please that the Truth is above all.
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, June 09, 2006  -  11:46 AM Reply with quote
Tilawat,

You sound very confused.

quote:

In fact this is the riddle created by 'Monotheism' which combines power of good and evil in one God.


There is no riddle, no confusion. God is not evil. God is only good. God gave humans and jinn the free will. The wrong excercise of this power by us gives rise to evil.

quote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.


God prevents evil when He wants to. That shows he is able to do that. Many times He punishes bad people and prevents them from causing harm to innocent people. Especially if an oppressed person makes a prayer, God answers that person and punishes the oppressor in this life. Have you not see the example of Mukhatar Mai in Pakistan?


quote:

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.


God is fully able to and is willing to prevent evil, as He does when He pleases.

quote:

Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?


Evil arises when humans (and jinns) excercise wrongly their free will.

quote:

Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"


You know what, these stupid philosophical questions are all the same thing. They keep asking the same thing in different ways. I recommend you stop reading this philosophical crap. No wonder you are so confused. Ask Allah for knowledge, hikmat and guidance; so you see through the nonsense of this philosophy you quote.

Best regards.

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