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Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, July 09, 2006  -  10:00 AM Reply with quote
Tilawat said: This forum is meant for discussion to seek truth.

Do not you know, the Truth is Quran and the reply of brother Shamshir is entirely in accordance with Quran. You people are deviated from Quran and do open Shirk with God.

So you have told a lie! This forum is not meant to seek truth but for you corrupt people to find their unlawful needs by hook or crook. So regarding the knowledge and the intentions, these corrupt people including you actually are like ‘hashfa ae himare’

Tilawat said: and not just to repeat what is written in the books of old.

What a nonsense reply is!!!! Why do you take the support of the old books of fabricated hadith???? Have you any way other than the old books of fabricated hadith????

Tilawat said: Verily God is with the patient." (Not with the Musallies?).

Before speaking, come out of your whims. Non-Muslims have comparatively more patience.
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Monday, July 10, 2006  -  1:26 PM Reply with quote
Dear Oosman,


Quote:- There is no point to engage in the debate with brother Samsher and with brother Minara any further in any issue of religion.


Reply:- You are absolutely right brother. Of course there is no point to engage with us regarding idol-worshippers’ religion HISLAM. My and Minara’s views only represent the true religion ISLAM. But yours, i.e. idol worshippers views, only represent the false religion i.e. HISLAM, which has no relation with Qur’an & Almighty God.


Quote:- Things has been discussed for more than a year with brother Samsher in the forum (Quran and Sunnah) all are failed to convinced him and he failed to convinced others.


Reply:- Again you told a lie. You are no more than a liar. All the points which I discussed through the forum(Quran and Sunnah) and also this, discussed only in the light of Qur’an not anything else. Many true believers of this forum understood that and appreciated them, but only the idol worshippers like you could not understand this. This is your misfortune brother as Mr Zulfee rightly said “Those who worship their own whim can never understand. God has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing and there is a covering over their eyes, and there is a great punishment for them. So they have all the misfortunes in this world and the hereafter”.


Quote:- It is always a good idea to keep away from arguments, while other party is not coming closer to yours understanding. There must be a limit for that.


Reply:- This is another lie based totally on your whims.


Quote:- Both Samsher and Minara have entirely different understanding of the religion. All have the freedom of choice to interpret the religion what he thought is right.


Reply:- As I told you earlier that We are not the followers of HISLAM. Idol worshippers are the follower of it. But we are the followers of ISLAM. So there should be difference between our understandings.

Samsher.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Monday, July 10, 2006  -  1:35 PM Reply with quote
Salam Oosman,

Q:- Doing voluntary acts of goodness and volunatry acts of charity - all this is not shirk. You are totally confused if you call voluntary acts of worship a shirk.


A:- Of course it is SHIRK if the idea of it comes from other source besides Qur’an and if we consider them as part of our religion. Please refer once again to Mr. Zulfee’s reply regarding this as follows;

“Fifth marriage might be volunteer GOOD DEED TO SUPPORT THE WIDOW AND HER CHILDREN but God SURELY dislikes such a volunteer good deed. It is shirk because someone is worshipping one’s own whim not God”.

So brother, I am not confused rather you.


Minara
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  12:51 AM Reply with quote
Minara

I quote: “Fifth marriage might be volunteer GOOD DEED TO SUPPORT THE WIDOW AND HER CHILDREN but God SURELY dislikes such a volunteer good deed. It is shirk because someone is worshipping one’s own whim not God”.

Firstly, Quran does not put any limit on the number of wives you can have at a time. It exhorts you to have as many wives as you can have, by saying "Have two,two, three, three". Does it not mean literally that you can't have a single wife?

In fact the religions with particular dogmas and agenda do come to a clash with ethics and morality at some stage if followed literraly. So is 'Deen e Mullah' in Islam. Quran says "Istabiqu fil kheirat" (Compete in doing what is good) but the Mullah says "Do what I say the Quran says".
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  7:24 AM Reply with quote
Tilawat,


Q:- Firstly, Quran does not put any limit on the number of wives you can have at a time. It exhorts you to have as many wives as you can have, by saying "Have two,two, three, three". Does it not mean literally that you can't have a single wife?


A:- Don’t misguide others by telling lie. Pleas read the following verse;


[4:3] “If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - YOU MAY MARRY TWO, THREE, OR FOUR. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content WITH ONLY ONE, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship”.

The above verse clearly sets the limit of wives you can have at a time i.e. maximum FOUR wives. The above verse also says “ if you fear least you become unfair, then you shall be content WITH ONLY ONE or with what you already have”.


Minara.
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  12:59 PM Reply with quote
For once I have to agree with usmani790!

For minara, please stop quoting wrong translation of the holy Quran:

[4:3] “If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers

It is not asking to marry their mothers, but asking to marry the orphans under their care!

Also please accusing us of being idol worshippers or of doing shirk. It is for Allah to judge who does what, and it is not your place to call me idol worshipper.

Salam!
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  2:05 PM Reply with quote
Q: - Many true believers of this forum understood that and appreciated them.

Yes! Of course, you are right and I totally agree with you, dear brother sksamsherali!
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, July 12, 2006  -  1:47 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Tilawat,


Q:- Firstly, Quran does not put any limit on the number of wives you can have at a time. It exhorts you to have as many wives as you can have, by saying "Have two,two, three, three". Does it not mean literally that you can't have a single wife?


A:- Don’t misguide others by telling lie. Pleas read the following verse;


[4:3] “If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers - YOU MAY MARRY TWO, THREE, OR FOUR. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content WITH ONLY ONE, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship”.

The above verse clearly sets the limit of wives you can have at a time i.e. maximum FOUR wives. The above verse also says “ if you fear least you become unfair, then you shall be content WITH ONLY ONE or with what you already have”.


Minara.


Do you mean Minara that only the unfair are permitted to have a single wife? But what about the sex-slaves? Do you think any limit has been placed on them that you can possess at a time with no consideration of fairness?
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, July 12, 2006  -  10:10 AM Reply with quote
Salam Oosman,


Q:- For once I have to agree with usmani790!


R:- You can do it, but the truth does not depend on such type of your agreement with such & such person. The truth regarding islam is only quran and nothing else.


Q:-For minara, please stop quoting wrong translation of the holy Quran:


[4:3] “If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers

It is not asking to marry their mothers, but asking to marry the orphans under their care!


R:- No your translation is wrong. Whatever may be, for the sake of argument if we accept your opinion then it too means that the Quran sets the limit of wives you can have at a time. You can’t exceed that limit.


Q:- Also please accusing us of being idol worshippers or of doing shirk. It is for Allah to judge who does what, and it is not your place to call me idol worshipper.


A:- You follow another source(s) i.e. your own whims, fabricated hadith, opinion of long bearded mullah, etc..etc..,which is not supported by Quran. You follow all those things beside the only Qur’an. So you are idol-worshipper.


42:21 “They follow idols who decree for them religious laws never authorized by GOD. If it were not for the predetermined decision, they would have been judged immediately. Indeed, the transgressors have incurred a painful retribution”.


But you do not accept that you are idol-worshipper. Qur’an also inform us about this that in spite of your idol worshipping you will not be ready to accept that.


6:22 On the day when we summon them all, we will ask the idol worshipers, "Where are the idols you set up?"

[6:23] Their disastrous response will be, "By GOD our Lord, we never were idol worshipers."


[6:24] Note how they lied to themselves, and how the idols they had invented have abandoned them.


Minara.
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, July 12, 2006  -  10:18 AM Reply with quote
Dear Tilawat,

Q:- Do you mean Minara that only the unfair are permitted to have a single wife? But what about the sex-slaves? Do you think any limit has been placed on them that you can possess at a time with no consideration of fairness?


A:- I only meant to say you what Qur'an says in 4:3 regarding the subject and nothing else. I can't make false any imagination as you & the members of your team i.e. Oosman, Usmani790... generally do. If you did not understand the above verse then please let me know, I shall InShAllah try to my level best to make you understand.

Minara
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  12:08 AM Reply with quote
Dear Minara

I am an Ajmi Arab and have therefore to rely on translations of the Quran in English or Urdu. I shall be obliged if you can make me understand it.
BTW, I could not make out even whether you are a male or female. Will you please clarify this also?
Minara

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  11:19 AM Reply with quote
Dear Tilawat,

This is not necessary. I too could not make out about your sex. So what?

Minara.

quote:

Dear Minara

I am an Ajmi Arab and have therefore to rely on translations of the Quran in English or Urdu. I shall be obliged if you can make me understand it.
BTW, I could not make out even whether you are a male or female. Will you please clarify this also?
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  12:18 PM Reply with quote
Dear Tilawat,

Quote:- You mentioned every type of worship but forgot to mention the worship of the 'Black stone' called only by its Arabic name 'Hajre-Aswad'.

Reply:- Why, did you not read the point-4 of the article?

samsher
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  3:11 PM Reply with quote
Tilawat Said: Firstly, Quran does not put any limit on the number of wives you can have at a time. It exhorts you to have as many wives as you can have, by saying "Have two,two, three, three".

YOU ARE WRONG!!!

Firstly, don’t choose the isolated and your required words. See the full sentence ie before and after your chosen words. Then you will understand the matter. Secondly two two, three three or four four is wrong but two, three or four. Have a look at the Arabic text also (if you know) or see the translation of the downloadable Arabic with English Quran at: www.islamasoft.co.uk/downloads.html which you must not deny.

Tilawat Said: Does it not mean literally that you can't have a single wife?

Aren’t you honest? Have you not read the complete verse- “If you fear least you become unfair, then you shall be content WITH ONLY ONE or with what you already have”.

Oosman translated [4:3]: “It is not asking to marry their mothers, but asking to marry the orphans under their care!”

YOU ARE ALSO WRONG!!!

For instance, the age of the orphan girls is two years when her father dies and the responsible man or the caretaker is of 50 years. “So, that girl when she reaches puberty, should the man or the caretaker at the age of near about 70 years marry that girl?” Would the people of modern ages, accept this atrocity of handing over a teenager girl to an old man?

******According to your wrong concept, “What should be the solution if the orphans are not girls but boys?” How will you accommodate the boys who have the DOUBLE SHARE than the girls? The verse [4.3] says “AND IF YOU FEAR that you cannot act equitably towards orphans, then marry SUCH WOMEN”. Now tell me, WHERE IS THE MORE FEAR to act equitably- towards single share or double share? So why are you ignoring boys who have the double share where there may be MORE FEAR, if Quran says, “AND IF YOU FEAR……….”******

Surely Allah doesn’t do the injustice it is only the man who for one’s own benefits does the all by hook or crook. So those who do wrong translations to marry the girls and ignore the boys, they are actually worshipping their own LUST AND THE WHIM not God. Hence they are surely Mushrik.

Oosman said: It is for Allah to judge who does what, and it is not your place to call me idol worshipper.

Allah will judge you according to Quran only. Do not say indirectly that there is no law of God. But if the law is present (which surely is and clearly defined- Quran) you will have to obey that otherwise you are surely a sinner. If you do not follow Quran, you are surely doing shirk with God. And if you say, “It is for Allah to judge who does what” then there is no need of any religion as every sane human knows what is good and what is bad.

BOTH, Tilawat and oosman, you are WRONG, see Arabic text of the verse or the excellent reply of Minara.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  11:29 PM Reply with quote
Dear Samser

I reread para 4 of your article of 7/7/06. It says "In the world today there are those who still worship such objects as statues, the sun, fire, or even certain animals. All these groups are promised great punishment in the Hereafter."

Do you mean this also includes the 'Black Stone' placed in Kaabah which is the only object which is worshipped by the Muslims as a ritual?
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  11:53 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Dear Tilawat,

This is not necessary. I too could not make out about your sex. So what?

Minara.

quote:

Dear Minara

I am an Ajmi Arab and have therefore to rely on translations of the Quran in English or Urdu. I shall be obliged if you can make me understand it.
BTW, I could not make out even whether you are a male or female. Will you please clarify this also?



I always considered myself to be a male from the fact that I loved females. You are shy of telling your gender which deepens my suspicion that you are a female.
As matter of course, one's gender does become important when the issue being discussed relates to gender relationship. But you parried my request to make me understand the point you had offered yourself to do. Will you please oblige now?

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