Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 10:36 AM
Verse 18.50 clearly says that he was a Jinn.
And when We said to the angels: Make obeisance to Adam; they made obeisance except Iblis. He was of the jinn, so he transgressed the commandment of his Lord. What! would you then take him and his offspring for friends rather than Me, and they are your enemies? Evil is (this) change for the unjust.
Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:11 PM
You said:- Regarding late prayers, Allah does not say anywhere he will not accept late prayers. The verse you quoted says prayers should be offered at proper times. It does not say they will be rejected otherwise. Show me where Quran says late prayers will be rejected? It is only your whim.
What a nonsense and a cunning statement is!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Why are you taking you own choice for getting negative support from the book of Allah ie you are implicitly imposing a lie on Allah?
Say: Those who forge a lie against Allah shall not be successful [10.69].
Look at the following verses and ponder, if any.
[2.173] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that over which any other (name) than (that of) Allah has been invoked; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring, nor exceeding the limit, no sin shall be upon him; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[5.3] Forbidden to you is that which dies of itself, and blood, and flesh of swine, and that on which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, and the strangled (animal) and that beaten to death, and that killed by a fall and that killed by being smitten with the horn, and that which wild beasts have eaten, except what you slaughter, and what is sacrificed on stones set up (for idols) and that you divide by the arrows; that is a transgression. This day have those who disbelieve despaired of your religion, so fear them not, and fear Me. This day have I perfected for you your religion and completed My favour on you and chosen for you Islam as a religion; but whoever is compelled by hunger, not inclining wilfully to sin, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[6.145] Say: I do not find in that which has been revealed to me anything forbidden for an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine-- for that surely is unclean-- or that which is a transgression, other than (the name of) Allah having been invoked on it; but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.
[16.115] He has only forbidden you what dies of itself and blood and flesh of swine and that over which any other name than that of Allah has been invoked, but whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor exceeding the limit, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Tell me, will you accept to eat every thing except those mentioned in the verses because Allah does not forbid, implicitly in His book, the things you will eat? Have you any answer?
Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:17 PM
|I.E will you, oosman, eat the flesh of donkey, horse, etc
Posted - Sunday, June 18, 2006 - 2:48 AM
|There are hadith related from our prophet regarding donkey and other meats like that. Besides that, Allah says everything good is ok to eat. So I will eat everything that Allah has not forbidden and that which prophet has not forbidden. These are all the bounties and good things of Allah that He has blessed us with. Why deny yourself Allah's bounties?
The other thing I want to say is how are your examples related to the topic?
If you think Allah will not accept late prayers, then by all means do not make late prayers, even if you miss a prayer, do not make late prayer or qadha prayer. But I think Allah has not forbidden something, so I can do it. If I am getting late for a prayer and do qadha prayer, inshallah Allah will accept it, and inshallah I will be better than you because you did not even do qadha when you were getting late!
Posted - Monday, June 19, 2006 - 12:57 AM
My question is do you 'offer' or 'seek' something in prayer? The main ingredient of Islamic namaz is Soorae Fatiha in which we seek help and guidance from Allah. What are we offering?
Posted - Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 10:32 AM
Q:-We are having a dialog and trying to find out the truth. You are being arrogant in assuming you already know the truth. This is not a good method for an open debate.
A:- Brother, I am not arrogant, rather you. Your ego, yes it is your ego, which does not permit you to accept the quranic truth.
Q:- The verses you have quoted about Allah asking the angels to prostrate to Adam and they prostrated except Iblees, they all only prove my point that he was among the ranks of the angels. None of the verses you quoted explicitly say he was an angel.
A:- Alas! You could not yet to understand a simple matter. Almighty Allah here ordered only to the Angels to prostrate before Adam. HE did not order to the Jin & Angels as you think.
“ All the angels prostrated before Adam EXCEPT Iblees”, this simple sentence clearly means that Iblees was also an angel. Let me try to demonstrate the subject;
A class teacher told his students that ‘tomorrow you shall remain present in this classroom at 9 a.m.’. The very next day all the students were remained present in the said classroom EXCEPT ‘ONE’.
Now will it be right to say that the above mentioned ‘ONE’ is not a student? No.
In the same way Almighty God ordered to the Angels to prostrate before Adam and all the angels prostrate before him EXCEPT Iblees.(2:30-34, 7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74). In this case Iblees was also an angel.
After he rebelled to Almighty God, he became the first Jin.
Now you said that Iblees was among the RANKS ?????? of Angels. How could you know that the rank of Iblees was the same as the rank of Angels? Where in the Quran it is said? Can you prove it from the Quran?
Q:- It is the style of the Quran that Iblees is referred to as an angle because he is included in their ranks, but not explicitly called an angel anywhere. Show me where Quran explicitly calls him an angel?
A:- You should read all the verses mentioned above and should use your brain.
7:179 We have committed to Hell multitudes of jinns and humans. They have minds with which they do not understand, eyes with which they do not see, and ears with which they do not hear. They are like animals; no, they are far worse - they are totally unaware.
Q:- [Iblîs (Satan)] said: "I am better than he, You created me from fire, and You created him from clay." 38.76
Iblees was made of fire - angels are not made of fire. Also Iblees had a free will to disobey Allah, angels do not have a free will. Therefore Iblees cannot be called an angel.
A:- Whether Angels were made of fire or not, the above verse does not say this. The above mentioned verse only means that Iblees was made of fire and Adam was created from clay.
How could you know that Angels were not made of fire? Pl. give me reference from the Quran. In this world there are many creatures, which have no free will, does this mean that they are all angels as because they have no free wills!!!
Q:- There are different interpretations of your quoted verses. If you do not agree with my interpretation, it is fine with me. It is also the interpretation of scholars like Ibn-Khathir that Iblees was a jin. Allah will judge which is the correct interpretation -
A:- I never told that Iblees is not a jin, I simply told that before rebelled to Almighty Allah he was amongst the Angels and after rebelled he became a Jin.
Q:- but do not be arrogant by saying you are right and everyone else is wrong. Only Allah knows.
A:- Then do you want to say that your opinion, about the subject under consideration, may be wrong?
Q:- Regarding answering of prayers, I believe that if anyone asks Allah for something (not ask some stone god or idol but ask Allah), then Allah may answer the prayer. There is no criteria that the person has to be a Muslim.
A:- Tell me brother what is the definition of Muslim?
Q:- Allah says:
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" 40.60
Allah does not put any preconditions to the invocations, only it is your whim. Allah invites anyone, Muslim or non-muslim, to call on to Him.
A:- Smile. It is not my whims rather yours. firstly please look into the Qur’an for the definition of ‘Muslim’. Secondly, the above verse does not say about Salat(namaz). The above verse says only about Invocation/Imploration. Almighty God says in the above verse that “Invoke me, I will respond you’.
To mean ‘Namaz’, Almighty God only used the Arabic word “Salat” in the Quran and nothing else. Salat should be offered at specific times, but we can implore or invoke to Almighty Allah at any time.
Q:- Regarding late prayers, Allah does not say anywhere he will not accept late prayers. The verse you quoted says prayers should be offered at proper times. It does not say they will be rejected otherwise. Show me where Quran says late prayers will be rejected? It is only your whim.
A:- What a ridiculous!! Why Almighty Allah tells us that late prayers will be rejected? Almighty Allah told us in the Quran that salat should be offered at its specific times. Now think if He also said us that due salat can be offered at any time, then will it not be the contradiction??? Brother there is no contradiction in the Quran(4:82).
I told you again & again that Quran is fully detailed, complete & perfect. Almighty Allah has said whatever he had to say to humanity in its finality, totality, and completeness in the Quran (6:115, 6:38, 10:37, 5:48). Therefore, our relationship to Allah is only through His book, the Quran and nothing else. Since Quran says us that we must offer our regular salat at SPECIFIED TIME (4:103), so it is our duty to offer our salat at its specific time. Since the Quran is complete and fully detailed and since there is no reference in the Quran about missed prayer, then logically we cannot say that praying due salat is a part of Islam. But brother you can’t understand this simple logic!! Alas!!
As Quran is fully detailed & complete, then you please show me where Quran says that late prayers will be accepted?
Posted - Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 11:28 AM
Qote:-Verse 18:50 clearly says that Iblees was a Jinn.
Reply:- There are two important phrases in 18:50
1- "We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan." this phrase confirms that Satan (Iblees) was one of the angels, otherwise
the command to prostrate given to the angels by God would not apply to him.
2- "He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord." the arabic words used here are "Kana min al-jinn" .... the arabic word "Kana" has two different meanings, the first is (WAS) and the second meaning is (BECAME). By simple logic we can find which meaning is intended for the word "kana" in 18:50. If you look at the first phrase again, we are told that Satan was an angel, thus the first meaning of the word "kana" , which is "WAS" cannot be the correct meaning. This is because Satan was an angel, he was not a jinn, this leaves the second meaning of the word "kana" which is "BECAME" ....and this is the correct meaning, since Satan was an angel who rebelled against God so he BECAME a jinn . He was an angel , then BECAME a jinn
Iblis was made of fire when God made him a jinn, but before that he was an angel ....... in any case, what angels are made of is not the deciding factor here, the deciding factor is that God tells us that Satan was an angel and then became a jinn.
<<<< Iblees had a free will to disobey Allah, angels do not have a free will>>>>>
Brother where in the Quran does it say that angels do not have a free will?
Posted - Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 1:53 PM
As Quran is fully detailed & complete, then you please show me where Quran says that late prayers will be accepted?
No, rather you show me where it says late prayers will not be accepted. The truth is Allah says he makes religion easy for us, and in light of that I do not see why we should not do late prayers if we miss a prayer - after all Allah is merciful and forgiving. He is more lenient than you.
The Quran does not say anything about late prayers and you know it, and yet you in your arrogance that you only are correct keep on saying that Allah will not accept late prayers. This is a matter for Allah to decide, not you and me. Don't say Allah will do this and not do that, you don't know what Allah will do! Have some fear of God!
I have never said I am right, infact I accept other people can be right. Proof is my discussion with Mr loveall so many times. And I have given my interpretation and said Allah knows best, and yet you are stubbornly trying to convince me of your rationale which does not sound logical to me. I see other interpretations of your verses that sound more logical, but you are only blinded by your interpretation which you think is correct. Do you admit yours could be incorrect as I have admitted? Or are you going to be headstrong and fundamentalist?
I have read your arguments and it does not sound logical in light of your evidence. If you have anything new to present, then say it. Else there is no point in saying same thing over and over.
Posted - Tuesday, June 20, 2006 - 9:15 PM
|You said:- The other thing I want to say is how are your examples related to the topic?
It is sufficient for you to be unanswerable!
Posted - Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:16 AM
|What a futile exercise in obscurantism is going on! What difference does it make if Satan is called an angel or a jin. Which one is superior, the episode does not tell. But it does tell that the human, made in the very image of God, is superior than both the angels and the jins. So the controversies involved in the episode can be resolved as follows:
1. The angels were made to prostrate before Adam, apparently opposed to the dictates f 'Touheed', as he was created in the image of God, not only that: God had blown His spirit into him. What a pity that man (Karamna bani-aadam) bows before idols of all kinds including so called 'Ullema e karaam'.
2. Satan was an angel by creation but unlike other angels he started using his brain, and so was promoted or demoted as a gin or genius. What happens to us when we start using our brains in our every daily practical life. As an Urdu poet says:
Jhukne walon ne rifatein paaein
Aur ham khudi ko buland karte rahe
Posted - Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 1:59 PM
|As-Salaamu Alaikum Mr. Samsher,
I am responding because you disagree with my post.
Allah said: What stopped you from bowing down, when I directed you to do so. He said: I am better than him, you created me from fire and you created him from dust." (Al-A`raaf: 7: 11 - 12)
This is very strange that Iblis after his conversion started arguing with God about his superiority instead of asking God why He made him Jinn?
What you have described is the view of Submitters. Their view/concept is the same as a ‘fallen angel’ taken from the Christian theology; twisting the interpretation of Quran according to it. Qur'an does not support this view and it is very clear from the verse.
No one interpreted the phrase as you did except the Submitters; and no one agrees with them.
Edited by: nauman on Wednesday, June 21, 2006 2:03 PM
Posted - Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 11:32 AM
|Salam brother Oosman,
Q:- No, rather you show me where it says late prayers will not be accepted. The truth is Allah says he makes religion easy for us, and in light of that I do not see why we should not do late prayers if we miss a prayer - after all Allah is merciful and forgiving. He is more lenient than you.
A:- Alas! What a nonsensical demand!!! Brother why do you not try to understand the meaning of a simple sentence? I told you again & again that Quran called Itself that IT is COMPLETE, PERFECT & FULLY DETAILED (6:38-39, 114-115) and all that we need for our salvation are given totally in the Quran. If Quran is complete and fully detailed and if all that we need for our salvation are given in the Quran then logically we cannot call/label to that information as Islamic, which are not in the Quran and also we do not require that info. for our salvation. Almighty Allah said in the Quran that Salat should be offered at its SPECIFIED times(4:103)? Now think, If God would say that we should offer our missed salat at any time in the day, then would it not be a contradiction because Almighty God says in the Quran that salat should be offered at specific times? Brother, Almighty God’s words are free from all contradictions.(4:82). If offering due salat at any time in the day would require for us then Almighty God would have definitely said this in the Quran and we can easily find it in the Quran since It is Fully Detailed and Complete. It is not logical to think that Almighty Allah said that Quran is fully detailed, perfect and complete and then He forget(may Allah forgive us) to mention about due salat and its timing, remember Salat is one of the pillars of Islam.
As Quran is FULLY DETAILED AND COMPLETE and as IT does not say anything about missed prayer, then we cannot say it is (offering missed prayer) Islamic. This is the TRUTH and this is the LOGIC. But brother you are not ready to accept any truth and logic because I think you are illogical. Your ego does not permit you to accept any logic & truth. It is your misfortune.
Do you know brother Although Almighty Allah is the most merciful yet He does not forgive any kind of SHIRK with Him? What do you understand by saying SHIRK with Him? If we follow anything, any source besides Quran as our religious source, then it will be fallen under the category of SHIRK with Almighty God. Brother, Quran does not say anything about the missed prayer. The idea of offering missed prayer comes from fabricated hadith. So if you follow any religious idea which is not remained present in the Quran and which comes from other source than Quran then you are doing SHIRK with Almighty God and Almighty God will not forgive this sin, even He is most Merciful.
You advised me that I should fear God!! Ha..ha…ha., brother I really fear God and so I never accept anything, any book, any source as my religious guidance BESIDES only QURAN.
Rather you don’t fear God because you accept another source(s) besides Quran as your religious source and in this way you are doing SHIRK with Almighty God. So brother you should FEAR GOD in future.
Q:- Do you admit yours could be incorrect as I have admitted? Or are you going to be headstrong and fundamentalist?
A:- You generally send your whims, rather than Quranic truth. So you have to admit yours fault. But why do I admit when I could not make any fault because I send my opinion only on the basis of Quran and also when you could not yet to prove from the Quran that I am wrong in any matter? You should at first try to prove my fault from the Quran not on the basis of your whims.
Q:- I have read your arguments and it does not sound logical in light of your evidence. If you have anything new to present, then say it. Else there is no point in saying same thing over and over.
A:- I have given my logic in the light of only Quran, but you disliked it because you do not accept only Quran as your religious source. You accept Quran, hadith etc.etc. as your religious sources so you could not satisfy with my logic. You follow another book, in it you can find anything that you want.
(68:36-38) What is wrong with your logic? Do you have another book to uphold? In it, do you find anything you want?
I have already told you All from the Quran regarding the subject according to my knowledge. Now it is your choice whether you can accept it or not, although I know that you do not accept the guidance.
(7:193) When you invite them to the guidance, they do not follow you. Thus, it is the same for them whether you invite them, or remain silent.
(7:198) When you invite them to the guidance, they do not hear. And you see them looking at you, but they do not see.
Posted - Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:46 PM
|Salam Mr. Nauman,
Quote:- Qur'an does not support this view and it is very clear from the verse.
Reply:- What is clear brother? Do you have eyes to see the clear things from the Quran? Almighty Allah said to the ANGELS (not to the Angels & Jinns) to prostrate before Adam. They(Angels) fell prostrate, except Satan." This phrase confirms that Satan (Iblees) was one of the angels, otherwise the command to prostrate given to the Angels by God would not apply to him. So brother your above saying is completely false. Please see the quote from Minara(2:30-34, 7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74). Brother, you traditionalists never been able to see the clear things from the Quran unless you follow Quran only as your only religious source.
Quote:- No one interpreted the phrase as you did except the Submitters; and no one agrees with them.
Reply:- This is your imagination and is wrong. I interpreted the phrase according to the Quran. If you do not accept this then pl. answer my following question;
“Almighty Allah said to the ANGELS to prostrate before Adam. Now how would it be applicable to Iblees, when he was not an Angel?” As Iblees was an Angel so the command to prostrate given to the angels by God would apply to him and this is simple truth, but you people(traditionalists) could not learn how to accept the simple truth in the Quran.
I don’t care whether followers of Hislam not Islam agree with me or not, because I know that I can’t guide them. Only Almighty Allah can do this and I pray for this.
Posted - Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 12:47 PM
What a beautiful reply!! Sabashh!!
Posted - Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 1:09 PM
|As-Salaamu Alaikum Samsher,
You did not comment on my statement: “This is very strange that Iblis after his conversion started arguing with God about his superiority instead of asking God why He made him Jinn?”
I think you avoided it intentionally.
Quote: “Almighty Allah said to the ANGELS to prostrate before Adam. Now how would it be applicable to Iblees, when he was not an Angel?”
In Arabic language when a group of people is addressed, the majority of peoples’ gender is used. The angels were more in number so their reference is used. You can ask any Arabic scholar about it. Mere translation do not proves anything.
Edited by: nauman on Thursday, June 22, 2006 8:41 PM
Posted - Thursday, June 22, 2006 - 6:47 PM
You said: after all Allah is merciful and forgiving. He is more lenient than you.
You will see the lenience when He will put you into the hell fire.
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