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salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007  -  1:01 PM Reply with quote
Quote: To me it is very relevant ,its shows that inspiration could also have same level of certitude as wahi have.please educate me if you think I am wrong here.

Reply: But isnt there any difference in certitude between 'Prophetic inspiration' and 'inspiration of a Sufi'? by claiming that they are equivalent, the Quranic claim of end-of-prophethhood is being denied.

Quote: Atlest this hadith shows that people other than Ambia can aslo have some message or some thing from God.

Reply: Yes, but:

1) As you yourself said "A rulling of sharih can not be taken on this basis of zanni hadith but we still benifited from it a lot depending what its says", therefore it is not sufficient evidence and
2) The Hadith shows that that can occur in dream only. Not in the "waking state" as claimed by Ghazali.

Quote: You have to show some thing from Quran and Sunnah which says that other than Ambia can see all this as said above.

Reply: I think you wanted to say "...other than Ambia cannot see all this as said above"- Correct me if I am wrong.

Dear Brother I have explained my argument to you. Now it is your reponsibility to refute it by explaining what is wrong with it, instead of just denying it unreasonably. You can bring Quran and Sunnah to explain the incorrectness of my argument. Saying, "Verse 33:40 is not talking about the certitude of inspirations" does not solve the problem. Prove using Quran & Sunnah that certitude of inspirations has nothing to do with prophethood, it can occur to Sufis as well. Unless you do that, my claim stands.

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, February 27, 2007  -  5:09 AM Reply with quote
Dear Salman

Quote:-Dear Brother I have explained my argument to you. Now it is your reponsibility to refute it by explaining what is wrong with it, instead of just denying it unreasonably.

Brother what you are talking about,you are claiming Imam Gazali have cross the limits of main sources(Naunobillah).All the great schelors came after him always praises his works a lot.The Imam Gazali's have a great deal of input in the Medhabs and in and in the educational matiral which thought to students in the Islamic univercites and Jamias.

You have to bring some very solid evidences from Quran and Sunnah to refute what ever he has said.Your own arguments are have no value at all.

I will request you to please stop quoting veres which not at all talks about what you says in your own words.I will not reply to you in future if you keep coming up on same pasion.

I am very surprised that some people get angry with some times for my hard responses,but what they them self do like your self trying to do here with the great schalor people never realize.


People here openly interpreting Islam agaist the Quran and Sunnah they just keep quite and never argue with them rather support them.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 28, 2007  -  11:13 AM Reply with quote
Maglis of My shaikh



I have recently attended the Maglis of my shaith.Shaikh was usually used to talk on couple of issues.He said that we very seldom used to pay visit to the people who are not feeling well.So we must go for ayadat if some we knows, is not feeling well.Secondly we must also be aware of way, one must visit in the light of the Holy Prophet(pbuh) life.We should select the time of his convenes and not what suit to us. Secondly we should not sit there for too long unless the person is very closed to us and he don’t mind it.We should talk good things to him so he refresh a bit from it rather talking on bad things. There is a dua of prophet(pbuh)to keep once hand on his forehead and recite the dua.He says that every person try to suggest him a madison so please don’t do that.

He also shared a true story of Abdullah bin Mubarak when once he got sick. and people were coming to see him.One of his Mureed sit there and don’t want go back.He was not feeling well further his continuos presence was future making him uncomfortable. He said to him that I am not feeling well some more these visitors have also bothering me.That fellow did not understand and ask him that, Shaikh you are telling right,should I closed the door and lock it?. Abullah Bin Mubarik asked him Ya, you should closed the door and locked it, but from out side.


My Shaith said that these days people made it necessary that they must bring some fruits or flowers for the sick person.He said that not every person can easily afford to buy all this neither it is the Sunnah.Some people just because of it that they can buy all these, do not used to pay the visit.He also oppose to bring the followers as it not the Muslim’s traditions.He told us first time he saw this in France in 1982.He saw there people buying flowers for this purpose .Now a days it is become common practice of Muslims as well.

Shaikh said that these days we are very ignorant of our neighbors. If any one is sick there,some time we are not aware of it.Some people only knows when they see the Ambolance coming to neighbour’s house.We must be responsible enough towards our neighbors so they might need us in times.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  2:10 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Dear Salman
People here openly interpreting Islam agaist the Quran and Sunnah they just keep quite and never argue with them rather support them.
Any proof for your reckless statement quoted above?

Ok, to whichever Sufi Sect you belong, you do have some things in common which have caused sufficient damage to the Ummah.

1. The Sheikh is given the standing of a deity in Sufism as that of a Catholic Saint, or the Dalai Lama himself.

(Complete obedience is enforced on his followers, and any questions are deemed as a betrayal of trust:

"The seeker must submit to the will of the Sheikh and to obey him in all his orders and advice, because the Sheikh has more experience and more knowledge in Haqiqat, in Tariqat and in Shari'ah," and

"he must agree with the opinion of his Sheikh completely, as the patient agrees with the physician".)

2. Attributes which belong to Allah, are also assigned to their Sheikhs.

3. They seek help from them, whether they are dead or 10,000km away.

4. They believe that their sheikhs know everything their students are thinking, and that they converse with the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) on a regular basis (in reality).

5. Ta'weel, or changing the apparent meaning of a verse or hadith to a secret inner one which only a certified Sheikh could explain!

(Since the Qur'an and Hadith are readily available, and cannot be changed, the Sufis have resorted to this trick)

6. The act of making Zikr in circles and jumping/moving frantically.

(Zikr in the true Arabic sense means "Remembrance of Allah." The Prophet's (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) method, which Muslims agree to be the best and only acceptable one, of zikr consisted in reciting Qur'an, discussing religion with his companions, and making Tasbeeh on his hands.)

7. They also rely on providing the mass with forged hadith, such as the one stating the beseeching of Adam (alaihi salaam) in the name of Muhammad when he sinned; the stories of Khidr; the rising of the Prophet (sallallaahu 'alaihi wa sallam) from his grave so a person could kiss his hand and so on.

8. Another smart tactic is to attribute forged sayings in support of the Sufi's from the righteous scholars.

(For example, Ibn Taymiyyah is attributed to have been a member of the Qadiri order and had been initiated, and spoken great words on Bistami and his likes. Yet Ibn Taymiyyah spent the majority of his life fighting against the teachings of Sufism, was imprisoned because of them, and bluntly stated "...Ibn Arabi who wrote "Al-Fousous," and other slandering atheists such as Ibn Sab'een and his like. They even witness that they are simultaneously the worshipers and the ones being worshiped." )
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  4:05 AM Reply with quote
There are many who says that all Muslims are terrorist and Islam is promoting terrorism.So if some one says sufism is bad and all sufis are like that and they do this they do that blah blah.It does not make any harm to true sufism but they may harm them self.

Any way it is not obligatory to join sufism at all,I am not saying this here.If it is click to you so its good for you.Every one has made free by God to choose what so ever he liked.

Regards,
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  6:31 AM Reply with quote
quote:

......So if some one says sufism is bad and all sufis are like that and they do this they do that blah blah.....
Should I assume that you do not deny any of the 8 points I have written about sufis but still insist in following Sufism just because Allah has left you free to follow whatever you like?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  7:06 AM Reply with quote
As I said earlier I am following the true sufism and true sufism is very much in accordance of Quran and sunnah.

My source to know what is right and what is wrong is Quran and Sunnah and not my intellect.I do not follow my intellect if it goes agaisnt the main sources but try to follow what is there in main sources.

We need to follow the main sources blindly,Our intellect is there to understand it only.What we do mistake that we strat following our intellect only some times and this is where shaitan graps us and lead us agaist the reality by giving us so many intellectual arguments.He is any way is biger inteclectual than us.

Regards,
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  7:54 AM Reply with quote
Ibne Arabi writes in fatoohaat-e-makkia:

The prophethood that has ended at the Prophet (sws) is merely the Proophethood of Shariat. The status of prophet still remains. So the conclusion is that no new shariah can abrogate the Shariah of Prophet (sws). Neither will it add any new law to the law of the Prophet (sws). The saying of the Prophet (sws) that prophethood and Risalat has ended, and there will be no prophet after him is actually telling this only. His (Prophet’s) saying means that there will be no prophet after him whose shariah will be against his Shariah. Whoever he (a new prophet) will be, he will be a follower of his (Prophet’s PBUH) Shariat.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  8:25 AM Reply with quote
Sheikh Ahmed Sirhindi writes:

It has to be known that, status of prophet has indeed ended with the Last of the prophets (sws). However, the miracles of this status can be obtained by the followers of the Prophet (sws) in their capacity of being his followers
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  11:59 AM Reply with quote
Imam Abdul Wahhab She'ranni (mentioned in (4) below), a student of Shaikh ibne Arabi, has quoted his teacher in his book:

"If anyone claims prophethood (nabuwwat), whether this claim
approves of the shariah Muhammadia or disapproves of it, if
he is not underage or insane, we shall kill him; otherwise,
we shall leave him."
(Al Yawaaqeetu Wal Jawaahir, Vol. 2, P. 37)


I hope this makes it clear that neither Shaikh differentiated
between law-bearing and non-lawbearing prophet. They agreed
with the ummah, that any claimant to prophethood is an unbeliever and an impostor.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  5:12 PM Reply with quote
Dear Salman

Shaikh Ibne Arabi might be saying this in context of second coming og Jesus(pbuh).Please checked the full context again.

Thanks
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  12:47 AM Reply with quote
quote:

1)My source to know what is right and what is wrong is Quran and Sunnah and not my intellect.

2)I do not follow my intellect if it goes agaisnt the main sources but try to follow what is there in main sources.
Great!

If what you say in your above statements is true, you will agree that the 8 practices of Sufis (which are I suppose the backbone of Sufism) are not there in main sources

Thus if you are true in your statements how on earth can you call yourself a Sufi?
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  7:05 AM Reply with quote
Ibne Arabi is saying "The status of prophet still remains"

in the same context as of Imam Ghazali when he says,

"From the time that they set out on this path, revelations commence for them. They come to see in the waking state angels and souls of prophets; they hear their voices and wise counsels"

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  9:27 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-Thus if you are true in your statements how on earth can you call yourself a Sufi?

Whats wrong with that?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  9:59 AM Reply with quote
Quote:- “The prophethood that has ended at the Prophet (sws) is merely the Proophethood of Shariat. The status of prophet still remains. So the conclusion is that no new shariah can abrogate the Shariah of Prophet (sws). Neither will it add any new law to the law of the Prophet (sws). The saying of the Prophet (sws) that prophethood and Risalat has ended, and there will be no prophet after him is actually telling this only. His (Prophet’s) saying means that there will be no prophet after him whose shariah will be against his Shariah. Whoever he (a new prophet) will be, he will be a follower of his (Prophet’s PBUH) Shariat.”


This is a misrepresentation of the opinion of Shaikh ibne Arabi, who was a scholar with strong sufi orientation. The following quote best represents his position in regard to the Finality of Prophethood among human beings:

"Prophethood and Messengerhood are absolutely ended on our prophet and Messenger. There is not anyone who will be appointed a prophet till the day of Judgment." (Shara Fususal Hakaha, p. 81)

I believe honesty demands that one does not misrepresent the opinion of any person by selectively presenting a short part of a sentence! Atleast

Fear Allah before quoting His Aulias out of context.
You can not harm those great people but only making your own hands dirty.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  10:13 AM Reply with quote
The statement is from Ibne Arabi's own writing in Fatoohaat-e-Makkia. I have quoted the whole paragraph in my post, and it is absolutely clear what has been said there.

In addition to that, you can have a look at the article, "Islam aur Tasawwuf" in the book "Burhaan" by Mr. Javed Ahmed Ghamidi. In this article, passages from several scholars of Tasawwuf have been quoted, along with references from their books. All of these quotes are pointing to the same fact.

As I wrote earlier, Prove using Quran & Sunnah that certitude of inspirations has nothing to do with prophethood, it can occur to Sufis as well. Unless you do that, my claim stands.

Regards,
Salman

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