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salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  7:13 AM Reply with quote
AoA,

Please have a look at Asif Iftikhar's discussion at the following link:

http://www.renaissance.com.pk/AugDial2y4.html

I would like Mr. Usmani to comment on this, as here Mr. Iftikhar questions the epistemilogical basis of Sufi thought. Sufis claim direct knowledge for themselves through the same Divine source that was the basis of Divine guidance given to the Messengers of God and His prophets. Now that is the core issue. Otherwise, if Sufism is all about getting close to Allah, everybody would be for it? What could be more desirable than that.

I have listened to introductory lectures on Sufism by Maulana Taqi Usmani, Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmed, Shaikh Nuh Keller (All of them representing the traditional school of thought). None of them mentions this, let alone giving a justification for it. I hope they have an academic reply to this criticism, considering their greatness as scholars of islam.

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  7:24 AM Reply with quote
Brother Khaled

Quote:-Now how will you synchronize Qawali , sama and so forth with Islam.

The list you have mentioned above, I only could recognize zikr only and about the others I am not sure about them neither the four names I mentioned to you in my previus post and the others whom I used to listen, I never heart these names from them.

Quote:-Islam is very clear and concise in Quran & sunnah .The interpretations of traditional scholars is not Deen .

Then whose interpretation is deen?please tell me.

Quote:-We only say Islam in this environment which is according to Quran & Sunnah since they are absolute.

Yes very true but the word “environment” in this not looks to you some thing complex as well like sufism and is there any prove of it from Quran and Sunnah?I am failed to make you understand that true sufism is only follow the Quran and Sunnah nothing more.

Quran:-Furthermore, by your view a person can not study Quran for getting fear of God.Quran is not a complex book for a common reader.

A common reader could also benefited from by reading the Quran no daubt but what I mean that to under stand Quran and Sunnah to a scholastically level and to disscover the treasure which are there a lots,will remain hidden from a common reader.

Quote:-In this perspective, the context is really important. There was a God-scheme (Nusrate-e-Deen) was required so as to murder Kuffar of Quraish.

Here you only insulting the Shabah(May Allah pleased with them all) and nothing else you have proved. I am afraid.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  10:13 AM Reply with quote
Origin of Sufism:

1. The first source:

Some worshippers amongst the Muslims turned all their attention to avoidance of the worldly life and to cutting themselves off in order to worship.

This first began in the lifetime of the Prophet (SAAW) when some of the Sahabah decided to spend the night striving in Prayer and abandoning sleep.

Others decided to fast every day without fail. Others decided to cease having marital relations with women.

So when that reached the Prophet (SAAW) he said:


"What is wrong with a people who say such and such. But rather I fast and I refrain from fasting, I pray and I sleep, and I marry women. So whoever turns away from my Sunnah, then he is not from me (Al-Bukharee and Muslim). Furthermore, the innovation of living like monks (monasticism) is forbiddeen in the Qur'an. He said:

"...the Monasticism which they invented for themselves..." [57:27].


However, when the Prophet (SAAW) passed on to join the company of the highest angels, and many people entered into Islam from the previous religions then the number of those who went to extremes in avoidance of worldly life and its blessings grew and Sufism found a place in the hearts of these people since it had come across a fertile planting ground.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  11:05 AM Reply with quote
Brother Raushan

Quote:-The second one was right and really understand the meaning better.Am I right ,Usmani?

Actually at a glance its looks to me that the first one did better.But if you look at second hadith(nobody will be superior to him except one who has done more than that which he has done) and further on the following hadith and the verses of Quran.This tell us a that actully how mush we thanks to Allah its not going to enough.So we do as much as we can and should follow the both ways as you described.

Further we must ask(Istusqfar),recite the third Kalima,Darood, on a daily basis may be hundred times day.People busy in their life tend to forget things so if we will fixed some zikr on daily basis so it will come in our practice and end of the day we will doing some thing.

Suhaib reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Strange are the ways of a believer for there is good in every affair of his and this is not the case with anyone else except in the case of a believer for if he has an occasion to feel delight, he thanks (God), thus there is a good for him in it, and if he gets into trouble and shows resignation (and endures it patiently), there is a good for him in it. (Sahih Mulim Book #042, Hadith #7138)

O you who believe! eat of the good things that We have provided you with, and give thanks to Allah if Him it is that you serve. (Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #172)

And Allah has brought you forth from the wombs of your mothers-- you did not know anything-- and He gave you hearing and sight and hearts that you may give thanks. (An-Nahl, Chapter #16, Verse #78)

And out of His mercy He has made for you the night and the day, that you may rest therein, and that you may seek of His grace, and that you may give thanks.
(Al-Qasas, Chapter #28, Verse #73)

Nay! but serve Allah alone and be of the thankful.
( Az-Zumar, Chapter #39, Verse #66)

A favor from Us; thus do We reward him who gives thanks.(Al-Qamar, Chapter #54, Verse #35)
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  11:43 AM Reply with quote
Brother Salamat

Quote:-Sufis claim direct knowledge for themselves through the same Divine source that was the basis of Divine guidance given to the Messengers of God and His prophets.

I have asked this from a Mufti who hapend to be a student of Molana Taqi Usmani Sahib.He told me that aulia of Allah could have (ilqa) some thing comes in the mind from Allah to guide him.Or he may listen some voice for his guidence.In both cases it is only remain for that particuler person(aulia) only to follow it and not for others to follow.Further more he also only can follow it if it within the bondary of Quran and Sunnah. Angles only communicate through Prophets and not to any one else.

One could also see some thing in dream as well and if it is a good thing then it is only for that particuler person to follow it and not for others.

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him." (Sahih Bukhari Book #87, Hadith #114)
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  12:31 PM Reply with quote
Dear Brother,

Given your response, then the concern of Asif Iftikhar becomes evident which is:

What is the qualitative difference between ilqa and wahi? if the certitude assigned to Ilqa is the same as that assigned to wahi?

Secondly, if Ilqa is as not as certain as a Wahi is, then how is it possible that its source is Divine? - Can a Divine source be right and wrong alternatively?

Thirdly, if Ilqa is as certain as Wahi, then what difference remains between a Prophet and a Wali?

Fourthly, please elaborate on the words of the Hadith, I dont quite understand, because if it is "what I like it is from Allah" - so anything that I like (I may not be a very pious person) becomes part of my religion, because it is from Allah? Can religion be defined like that?

Fifthly, if two persons claim to have different (contradictory) 'ilqa' on the same issue, whose would be from Allah and whose would be not? If apparently one is as pious as the other?

Lastly, how can something other than Quran and Sunnah claim to be of divine origin, because in that case you are introducing a thrid source of religious knowledge? Let me explain, for example, what if the scholars of this website claim that they have developed their religious views based on ilqa (I am not saying they do, but what if) - Wouldnt all of the criticism on them become unvalid? As they would have legitimized it through ilqa? - I hope you have understood in principal what I am asking?

These are some questions that come to my mind.

Regards,
Salman
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, February 08, 2007  -  1:38 PM Reply with quote
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actually at a glance its looks to me that the first one did better.But if you look at second hadith(nobody will be superior to him except one who has done more than that which he has done) and further on the following hadith and the verses of Quran.This tell us a that actully how mush we thanks to Allah its not going to enough.So we do as much as we can and should follow the both ways as you described.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So,You are saying the first one has not done enough and to make it enough its compulsary apply the second way.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Further we must ask(Istusqfar),recite the third Kalima,Darood, on a daily basis may be hundred times day.People busy in their life tend to forget things so if we will fixed some zikr on daily basis so it will come in our practice and end of the day we will doing some thing.
----------------------------------
"People busy in their life tend to forget things "is really the true picture.
I hope you agree that the objective is to let them live their busy life but reminding them Allah in all of their "affairs" which keep them "busy".

"Fixing"some zikr on daily basis and converting all the affairs as zikr are two things.
The first one will bring a minor change in the routine of the seeker.
The next one can change his entire mode of thinking as all of his deeds will be a rememberance of Almighty.

one follow up question,
will you quote any thing from Quran which suggests counting(in fixed numbers) as a method of zikr.

wassalam

Edited by: raushan on Thursday, February 08, 2007 2:38 PM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  3:01 AM Reply with quote
quote:

usmani790 PAKISTAN Posted - Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 7:51 AM
.............the true sufism is based on Quran and Sunnah so rejecting true sufism ............ rejecting the Quran it self unknowingly.

"Marianne Warren, in her Unravelling the Enigma: Shirdi Sai Baba in the Light of Sufism writes that among the several Sufis who are believed by their Hindu followers to have been forms of Dattatreya are Sayyed Chandasahib Qadri, preceptor of Janardhan Swami, the guru of the noted Maharashtrian bhakti saint Eknath [1533-99] and the Sai Baba of Shirdi [d.1918]. "

SO, do you mean to say that all these sufis got their belief rom the Qur'an and Sunnah and gave you a deeper interpretation of Islam? ASTAGFIRULLAH!

Every one of us is responsible for his or her deeds, and the only guidance that should be followed is that provided by the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

The Sufis may say that their mentors only follow these for guidance, but the fact remains that many of these mentors have very little knowledge of the Qur’an and the Sunnah.

They like the privileges associated with their position and they are very reluctant to give them up. Hence, they become guilty of deception and fraud.

Their disciples are ignorant of this fact and allow themselves to be led without thinking. In the end they find themselves ruined.

The only proper way is to increase one’s knowledge by studying Islam under trustworthy and knowledgeable scholars.

When one has sufficient knowledge, he or she can judge what is being said properly and steer away from what is in conflict with the Prophet’s Sunnah. There is much in the Sufi tradition that is in such conflict.


http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.2000/dargah.htm

http://www.islamicvoice.com/septembe...alogue.htm#sat
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  4:54 AM Reply with quote
Dear Brother,

Quote:-What is the qualitative difference between ilqa and wahi? if the certitude assigned to Ilqa is the same as that assigned to wahi?

I think you have not red my reply carefully.As I said earlier, ilqa is only for that particular person and wahi is for all ummah of the prophet to follow,secondly I have said that one have be make sure that ilqa must be in accordance to the teaching of the prophet.Have you seen the difference between two now?


Quote:-Fourthly, please elaborate on the words of the Hadith, I dont quite understand, because if it is "what I like it is from Allah" - so anything that I like (I may not be a very pious person) becomes part of my religion, because it is from Allah? Can religion be defined like that?

Now you have problem with the prophet(pbuh) words also,I am not a scholar so I can say some with certainty.What I can say is a pious person is truly benefited from Quran and Sunnah.

This Book, there is no doubt in it, is a guide to those who guard (against evil). (2:2)

So only Muttaqi people could only be benefited from it.

Quote:-Lastly, how can something other than Quran and Sunnah claim to be of divine origin, because in that case you are introducing a thrid source of religious knowledge? Let me explain, for example, what if the scholars of this website claim that they have developed their religious views based on ilqa (I am not saying they do, but what if) - Wouldnt all of the criticism on them become unvalid? As they would have legitimized it through ilqa? - I hope you have understood in principal what I am asking?

When ilqa have to be in conformity of Quran and Sunnah and ilqa is for the guidance for that particular person only, then there is no place for such questions.

Regards,
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  5:44 AM Reply with quote
Dear Usmani Sb,

I am afraid your answers to my questions (and only few you have answered) have not been satisfactory at all.

You wrote, "When ilqa have to be in conformity of Quran and Sunnah and ilqa is for the guidance for that particular person only, then there is no place for such questions"

My reply: You have completely missed the point, Asif Iftikhar has written in that article:

"Although the Sufis believe that no further directives are given to them after the Prophet (sws) as far as the content of religion is concerned, yet the fact that they present their ‘prescriptions’ for the ‘application’ of the principles of the Qur’an and the Sunnah on the basis of their ‘direct and certain knowledge’ and therefore with the same degree of authority that religion itself has is a sufficient cause for concern over innovation in religion and over denial of the end of wahi with the last Prophet (sws)"

So dear brother, it was never asked whether ilqa can or does add/subtract to the CONTENT of Quran &Sunnah or not, (I know according to Sufi theory it doesnt). The question being asked is whether ilqa can put a Divine stamp on a particular INTERPRETATION of Quran & Sunnah. I hope your have understood the concern now.

Your wrote: "Now you have problem with the prophet(pbuh) words also"

My Reply: I love the Prophet (sws) - he is the most important personality for me, and I can and will submit to whatever he says (Insha'Allah). But have I lost the right to ask, what his words mean? or Has he said this or not? - Brother you being student of one of the pupils of a great scholar like Maulana Taqi Usmani, should not indulge in lame accusations in order to win your case. I appreciate that you have admitted your inability to explain this Hadith, I had appreciated your more if you had obtained a scholarly opinion for me on that Hadith.

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  5:54 AM Reply with quote
Brother Raushan

Quote:-So,You are saying the first one has not done enough and to make it enough its compulsary apply the second way.

No I am not saying that.I am not just talking about these two ahadith only but looking at the over all knowledge of deen in this regards.

Quote:-"People busy in their life tend to forget things "is really the true picture.

Yes I think so, when many people these days can forget to offer salat then how can they not forget to do the zikr.The main hardle in following the deen properly is this dunia brother.Because most of us are so busy even now for having a good standard life for us and for our chlidren and not for that if we will earn more so we will spend more in the way of Allah.

Quote:-I hope you agree that the objective is to let them live their busy life but reminding them Allah in all of their "affairs" which keep them "busy".

Yes true, doing fixed zikr will make their heart like that so they could remember Allah always.

Quote:-"Fixing"some zikr on daily basis and converting all the affairs as zikr are two things.
The first one will bring a minor change in the routine of the seeker.
The next one can change his entire mode of thinking as all of his deeds will be a rememberance of Almighty.

I think the first one help them to do the next one.So if we don’t do the first step so the second one not many can do without doing the first one.

Quote:-will you quote any thing from Quran which suggests counting(in fixed numbers) as a method of zikr.

The two ahadith I have quoted earlier are enough for this.If a doctor ask you to walk 1000 meter every day.How would you do it.If still you think that the method of fixed counting is not correct,so now its your turn to quote it from Quran and Sunnah that this is not a correct way to do zikr.

Allah Hafiz
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  6:50 AM Reply with quote
Dear Salman Sb,

Quote:-"Although the Sufis believe that no further directives are given to them after the Prophet (sws) as far as the content of religion is concerned, yet the fact that they present their ‘prescriptions’ for the ‘application’ of the principles of the Qur’an and the Sunnah on the basis of their ‘direct and certain knowledge’ and therefore with the same degree of authority that religion itself has is a sufficient cause for concern over innovation in religion and over denial of the end of wahi with the last Prophet (sws)"

Ask Asif Iftikhar why not he directly ask those people who said so and find out.It is not good thing to do for trying to give a bad name to some people without having any prove.At least he must fear Allah before doing such thing.


Further your remarks on hadith(Can religion be defined like that?).Who else can better defind religion?Just say that I love Prophet is not going to be enough.

Quote:-should not indulge in lame accusations in order to win your case.

What I said to you just because one should not pass such remarks on the Prophets words.I did not accused you but commented on your own words you wrote.They were not appropriate at all, ask any one else if you still not sure.

Could you please tell me I did this because I win to my care?Do you know what is in my heart? Certainly you did not and this what is called accusation and may be some thing more than that.

Quote:-or Has he said this or not?

Firstly you make sure that this hadith is a sahih hadith then I will check about it.

Regards,
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  7:12 AM Reply with quote
You wrote: "Ask Asif Iftikhar why not he directly ask those people who said so and find out.It is not good thing to do for trying to give a bad name to some people without having any prove.At least he must fear Allah before doing such thing."

Reply: Please carefully read the article, it contains the proof from Imam Ghazali's book. And incase this information never came to you, the respected Imam Ghazali passed away years ago, so in order to understand what he thought, we would have to refer to what he wrote.

The rest of what you wrote, My reply to it is that I am speechless at your elequaonce, knowledge and your attitude towards handling criticism.

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  7:36 AM Reply with quote
Quote: Please carefully read the article, it contains the proof from Imam Ghazali's book. And incase this information never came to you, the respected Imam Ghazali passed away years ago, so in order to understand what he thought, we would have to refer to what he wrote.

If he or you has some problem with the respected Imam Ghazali's books then why you are bringing it to me brother? Did I said similer thing here?If you really wish to understand it you must ask some one who could answer it.

I know you also know it,but what are your intention to bring it here?I don't know.

Quote:-The rest of what you wrote, My reply to it is that I am speechless at your elequaonce, knowledge and your attitude towards handling criticism.

It is always good not to say any thing if one have no answer, rather than wrote some more offensive things.

Regards,
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  8:24 AM Reply with quote
Your wrote: "If he or you has some problem with the respected Imam Ghazali's books then why you are bringing it to me brother? Did I said similer thing here?If you really wish to understand it you must ask some one who could answer it"

Reply: The dicussion is on Sufism as taught by the elders of this discipline, so any questions regarding what was written or said by the established scholars of sufism (Like Imam Ghazali), would be brought up. I dont have a problem with him, he is a big name in the history of Islamic sciences. I just have questions.

The questions are posed to whosoever is supporting sufism here. Bring scholarly opinions if required.

Your or my definitions of Tasawwuf are irrelevant here, we are not scholars, or atleast I am not. The focus of the discussion is this: Can Tasawwuf (the one taught by the established scholars of this discipline) be accepted as a valid part of Islam?

The resolution of the debate requires the answers to the questions asked in my previous posts. As I mentioned, these questions refer to the core issue. Had sufism been just about getting closer to Allah, we all would have supported it lovingly.

Regards,
Salman
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  9:18 AM Reply with quote
quote:


....The two ahadith I have quoted earlier are enough for this.If a doctor ask you to walk 1000 meter every day.How would you do it....
Allah Hafiz


If the "doctor"ask me to walk 1000 m every day,I ll certainly walk.
does this mean I should count exact 1000m with a measuring scale?
Shall I go for a walk in the garden or bring a jogging machine for that?which one will be healthy excercise?

Quran doesnt ask me to count ,it simply says I should remember Him for each and every event that occurs in my day to day life.

--------
Next ,as per my understanding sufis primary aim was to propagate Allah's religion among non believers .Secondary objective is to train its people.

do you agree?

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