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salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, March 07, 2007  -  5:41 AM Reply with quote
The point being conveyed by my post is simply this: The wahi that is specific to the Prophets is different because of its perfect certitude, Maududi uses the word "full conviction (of the prophet)" for this certitude. Brother Aboosait is correct, no Sufi or Aalim can claim access to that special wahi. That will be tantamount to denying the end of Prophethood.

Regards,
Salman
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, March 07, 2007  -  8:59 AM Reply with quote
salmant,
the guidence received by Prophets through wahi is meant for entire mankind to follow.Its the method of communication to convey the mesage ,from Allah to the prophets.The message address a complete list of issues that needed to guide humanity.

On the other hand we use words like kashf,ilham or inspiration for common man when he/she recieves something in mind or dream from God for any given matter.This is absolutely personal and not for everyone.

Thatswhy in case of prophet the audience are bound to follow the wahi but same is not with common man's inspiration.

your corrections to my understanding on this issue is requested.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, March 07, 2007  -  9:15 AM Reply with quote
Thank you Brother Raushan for entering the discussion, it is always good to have other people views, when two people are not being able to understand each other.

See the question is not about the private-ness of this inspiration, that was clarified in the Mr. Usmani's first reply to my post. The question and debate is about the certitude of that inspiration received by a Sufi or anybody else.

Your comments on it are welcome.

Regards,
Salman
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, March 07, 2007  -  11:10 AM Reply with quote
How I see it the kashf,ilham or inspiration for common man or any auliya is not for the learning or education purpose as far as teaching of religion is concerned.What ever the education and knowledge was required for the following of religion is already there in Quran and Sunnah.That is the job of a Prophet only,God slect a Prophet or Messenger for this Purpose.No auliya and sufi is there for this purpose.

Now coming back to kashf,ilham or inspiration for common man or any auliya ,this is just to assist him in his wordily life.Helping one self in make a right decisions,giving one self some advanced news of some happening in future,guiding some one on the right direction etc.etc.

Edited by: usmani790 on Wednesday, March 07, 2007 11:19 AM
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, March 07, 2007  -  11:00 PM Reply with quote
the theory of tasawwuf is to get close to god by grasping His personality which is strictly denied by Qur'an ; i.e. even when the most greates personality, the prophet of god, moses/musa pbuh wished to have a vision of Him He warned him, that you would not be able to bear my site-hence moses fainted even though just a light from god shone on the mountain.

Qur'an stresses on strenghthening of the relationship with god by one and most important virtue of islam i.e. tazkyah of one's soul /purification of the soul which is an ongoing struggle for the life time the aim being the attainment of the state of 'nafs e mutmainnah' /'the satisfied soul' ready to meet his/her Lord.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, March 08, 2007  -  1:41 AM Reply with quote
quote:

.....moses/musa pbuh wished to have a vision of Him He warned him, that you would not be able to bear my site-hence moses fainted even though just a light from god shone on the mountain....

......Qur'an stresses on strenghthening of the relationship with god by one and most important virtue of islam i.e. tazkyah of one's soul /purification of the soul which is an ongoing struggle for the life time......

1.)please prove YOUR ABOVE TWO STATEMENTS FROM THE QUR'AN/HADITH

2.)Always use capital G to indicate God when you mean Allah
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 08, 2007  -  3:53 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-the theory of tasawwuf is to get close to god by grasping His personality which is strictly denied by Qur'an

No its not true at all,every one knows that sufia always try to realize the fevers of God on human and that created the love of God within one self and in sufia as well.This love of God lead to them to love every creature of God and human being used top of them regard less of their religion and clour.This was the main reason people reverted to Islam in millions those days in the sub-contenent.Nine million people just reverted on the hands of Mohiuddin chisti(RA).
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 08, 2007  -  5:06 AM Reply with quote
What is meant by "grasping His personality"?
imran776

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 08, 2007  -  4:50 PM Reply with quote
Brother Usmani,

There can be millions of reasons for people to convert to other religion and it doesn't serve as a criteria to judge any school of thought.

I Believe that we are again stuck in the outer layouts of tasawaff and i wanted to address the core issues.

Can anyone shed light on the concept of Wahdat-ul-Wajood which forms in my opinion forms the basis of tasawaff.

W/salaam
Imran
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 08, 2007  -  5:02 PM Reply with quote
this is the evidence given from Qur'an itself i.e. the incidence of moses wanting to actually see god--incidence of moses pbuh is detailed in more than one surahs including baqarah, al e imran, ta'ha, qasas.(actually it does not matter even a least to the greatness of god whether you write it with small or capital--and i hope on this site it's quite understandable who do we refer to as god ) for details you may listen to the lecs on tasawwuf on the link http://www.tv-almawrid.org/
and
www.al-mawrid.org

grasping his personality means trying to find Him physically whereas the only way we can find Him is by His 'sifa't'/qualities--and this is how we can introduce ourselves to Him, and get closer to Him by following His messenger pbuh as Himself has said in Qur'an that oh Muhammad sws if they say they love God, they have to follow you.Qur'an insists on the purification of one's intelligence, physical self and spiritual self in order to find god and not by 'rehbaniat' , cutting off from the facts of a living life or by wondering in the jungles--as comes from the ideology of sufism.


salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 09, 2007  -  11:04 AM Reply with quote
Dear Dr. Henna,

"grasping his personality means trying to find Him physically" - As far as I know, a very small minority of Sufis are inclined towards the concept of 'Tajseem' (that Allah has a physique). Please correct my understanding.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 09, 2007  -  11:31 AM Reply with quote
lecs on tasawwuf on the link http://www.tv-almawrid.org/
are not accessible, the link called "tasawwuf" doesnt work.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 09, 2007  -  11:42 AM Reply with quote
Dear Imran Sb,

What are your comments on our discussion on the 'certitude of inspiration'?

(copied from wikipedia)

Wahdat-ulWajood: the "Unity of Being" is a Sufi philosophy emphasizing that 'there is no true existence except the Ultimate Truth (God)'. All of his creations emerge from '`adem' (عدم non-existance) to 'Wajood' (existence) out of his thought only. Hence the existence of God is the only true one (Haq) and that of his creation a false one ('Baatil'). This concept is considered a formulation of Muhyi id-Din al-Shaykh al-Akbar Ibn Arabi ( الشيخ الأكبر محيي الدين بن العربي ) since he is considered the originator of this idea, but this term is not used in any of his writings.

Probably this is the basic premise which leads Sufis to believe that there is a higher concept of Tawhid, which is La Mojood Illa Allah. They consider it even superior to the Quranic concept of Tawhid which is La Ilaha Illa Allah.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 09, 2007  -  11:47 AM Reply with quote
Summary of the explanation of Wahdat al-Wujood by Maulana Zafar Ahmad Usmani in the Introduction of his Urdu book "Al-Qawlul Mansur fi Ibn al-Mansur"

Allah Ta'ala has many qualities, one of them is wujood (existence). The wujood of Allah is compulsory (Allah is 'wajib al-Wujood'). The wujood of Allah has no beginning and no end. The wujood of the creation of Allah is 'hadis' (of recent occurrence) and dependent upon Allah Ta'ala in all its aspects.

Regarding the wujood of the creation, the Ulama-e-Zahir say that the wujood of the creation is 'mustaqil' (confirmed), meaning that it is not a shadow of the existence of Allah but entirely dependent upon Allah in all its aspects. The soofia-e-kiram say that the wujood of the creation is 'ghair-mustaqil' (unconfirmed). Indeed, the wujood of the creation is 'khayali' (speculative). The real wujood is that of Allah alone. The entire creation is a testimony of the wujood of Allah. In other words, the existence of the creation is totally different than the existence of Allah. One can not make 'qiyas' (analogical deduction) of Allah's wujood with that of the creation. The existence of Allah is real and independent. Therefore, wahdat al-wujood means that Allah is one in His existence as He is one in His 'zaat' (self/identity). It is a much deeper notion of 'tawheed' (oneness of Allah). 'Wahdat as-shuhood' means that the mere speculative existence of the creation testifies the independent existence of Allah.


'Wujood-e-khayali' (the speculative existence of the creation) is of two types:

1. 'Waqi'ee' (occurring)

2. 'Ghair waqi'ee (non-occurring)

The soofia say that the creation is 'waqi'ee' (occurring) but its occurrence is limited in terms of 'makaan' (place) and 'zamaan' (time) and dependent upon Allah. It would be wrong to call the creation non-occurring and say that everything one sees is Allah, this is against the 'aqaa'id' (beliefs) of the Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah. This is where all the misunderstanding arises. In reality, the beliefs held by the 'soofia-e-kiram' in regards to the oneness of Allah are in exact accordance with Ahle Sunnah wal Jamaah and much deeper and firm-rooted than those of the 'ulama-e-zahir'. Once a person believes that the creation is only speculative then he will not think and believe that the benefits and harms being displayed by the creation are its creation but all harm and benefit is the creation of Allah. The creation only displays the orders of Allah. The 'hikmah' (wisdom) of 'wahdat al-wujood' and 'wahdat as-shuhood' is to ingrain a deep 'yaqin' (conviction) of Allah in the depths of the hearts. If a person has a hard time understanding this, he should stick to the basic beliefs and tenets of Islam as described by the 'ulama-e-zahir' because these are proven from the Quran with clarity. However, one does not have the right to criticize the 'soofia' for their beliefs just because one is unable to understand the reality of their views.

One should also understand that the views of the 'soofia' regarding 'wahdat al-wujood' are not from the fundamentals of 'tassawwuf' and understanding it is not a condition for a 'saalik' (seeker of truth). Those who speak ill of the 'soofia' should fear Allah and contemplate over the following hadith of Rasulullah (Sallallahu Alayhi WaSallam):

"Speaking what is good is better than silence and silence is better than talking evil." (Reported by al-Bayhaqi)
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 09, 2007  -  4:47 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Regarding the wujood of the creation, the Ulama-e-Zahir say that......
We are not bothered to know who your Ulama-e-Zahir or Ulama-e-baatin are or what they say. Please tell us what Allah S.W.T. says in the Qur'an and how Rasoolullah sallallahu alaihi wasallam has explained it. In case of any dispute in religeous matters we Muslims have been ordered to turn to Allah and Rasoolullah only. Khalaas.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, March 10, 2007  -  5:00 AM Reply with quote
There is lots of verses of Quran and sayings of Prophet(pbuh) already there in this forum.Try to undersatnd them first.One saying of Prophet(pbuh)is here for yours considration.

Speaking what is good is better than silence and silence is better than talking evil." (Reported by al-Bayhaqi)

Jazak Allah Khairen

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