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oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, December 5, 2006  -  8:02 PM Reply with quote
I was not talking about meeting in person, did I say that anywhere?
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, December 6, 2006  -  1:05 AM Reply with quote
Nida

Don't listen to 'Marwanrh'. He is suffering from jealousy born of gender-complex. Perhaps he is trying to use that old 'save the damsel' technique to ingratiate him with you presuming you to be a female with half 'aql'.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, December 6, 2006  -  6:39 PM Reply with quote
Chill out people! Just relax, ok?

Quote of tilawat:
"...presuming you to be a female with half 'aql'."

Not at all! I don't think Brother marwan thinks that way.

Quote of marwan:
"its clear tilawat is a freak..."

I don't think so, and neither should you.

"I unlike you (tilawat) have made and do not intend to make any personal contact with her, either by email or in person."

Chill out Brother! Who knows, maybe tilawat is a female.

And by the way tilawat, I wanted to know whether you're a male or female because I felt weird writing "Bro/Sis" everytime. If you don't tell me your gender, I'm gonna have to refer to you as "it". And why did you say that you weren't sure what gender you were?

Assalaamu 'Alaikum.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, December 6, 2006  -  11:17 PM Reply with quote
Nida dear, I say why be personal and judgmental too. Can't we communicate as human beings without gender and, as Oosman says, 'takfir' complex. Ismat Chughtai, a renowned writer of India, is on record saying "I feel insulted when some body calls me a sister". Is it not ironic that Muslim women are seeking equality with men as human beings but don't behave like human beings without gender-complex as in the West. 'Afala tafakaroon' (Why don't you think?).
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, December 6, 2006  -  11:40 PM Reply with quote
because tilawat, gender exists and Allah has specified rules of conduct between them. THAT is why it matters.

salaam
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 7, 2006  -  1:09 AM Reply with quote
marwan,

do you regard women as half-aql?
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, December 7, 2006  -  10:01 AM Reply with quote
quote:

.... Ismat Chughtai, a renowned writer of India, is on record saying "I feel insulted when some body calls me a sister". .


i totally consent she would ve felt instulted.

will u plz explain for me the relevance of her being quoted here.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, December 7, 2006  -  10:07 AM Reply with quote
No I do not believe that women have "half an aql".

I do believe that men and women are not intellectually identical.

Men are more logical, theoretical, technical and mathematical. Thats the fact of the matter.

Women are better communicators and more disposed to a softer and more emotional disposition. Which is a blessing given their roles.

I should state that this does not mean that women are not logical, mathematical etc...

Just that men are better at it.

There is a different emphasis in the intellectual make up of men and women instated by Allah for the purpose of each gender being more suitable for its role.

Edited by: marwan on Thursday, December 07, 2006 12:14 PM
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 8, 2006  -  12:39 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

.... Ismat Chughtai, a renowned writer of India, is on record saying "I feel insulted when some body calls me a sister". .


i totally consent she would ve felt instulted.

will u plz explain for me the relevance of her being quoted here.


I quoted Ismat hear, dear Raushan, because Nida had threatened to address me as ‘it’ (So kind of her; “woh hue hamkalaam, Allah, Allah” ) instead of sister/brother if I don’t divulge my sex. I was, in fact, somewhat surprised and even tantalized on her insistence on knowing my sex like they enquire on marriage sites. I am afraid Marwan may not become all the more jealous if I say I would welcome to be called any thing , even a ‘freak’ but not ‘brother/sister’ by Nida if it means we cannot become friends as answer to my lonliness is a companion like her. Hence, the said quotation from Ismat . She probably wanted to highlight the fact that the primary and basic human relationship is that complementary companionship as between Adam and eve, the result of the longings caused by the creative life-force called commonly as sex. All other blood relations like brother sister are, so to say, merely a by-product of it.

Here I would like to quote a stanza from a Punjabi song by Shah Hussain which highlights the inadequacy even of real blood relations like that of mother to share with them the pangs of separation and lonliness:

“Kinoo’n mein dassaa’n dard wichhore da haal ni maa e”

(Oh mother, with whom I may share the pangs of separation)

On the other hand a Bollywood song says:

“Chandi jeisa rang he tera sone jeise baal
ek tu dhanwaan he gori baaqi sab kangaal”
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 8, 2006  -  3:35 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
....(So kind of her; “woh hue hamkalaam, Allah, Allah” ) instead of sister/brother if I don’t divulge my sex. I was, in fact, somewhat surprised and even tantalized on her insistence on knowing my sex like they enquire on marriage sites.

Ok, I can admit that I was probably being rude by "threatening" to call you 'it'; but please! Never attack my intentions like that without knowing what they actually are. You're insulting and ridiculing me.
Tilawat, the fact is that I don't care whether you're male or female. I just asked you generally about your gender. Writing "bro/sis" everytime is irritating; I feel more comfortable in writing either "Brother" or "Sister".
But if you wanna go ahead in accusing me of something that I've no intention to do, then it's your wish.
And I don't get why Ismat Chughtai feels insulted when someone calls her "sister". She should be happy about it. Aren't we all brothers and sisters evolved from the same parents?

Wassalaam.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 9, 2006  -  12:48 AM Reply with quote
Sister Nida

You say:

"Ok, I can admit that I was probably being rude by "threatening" to call you 'it'; but please! Never attack my intentions like that without knowing what they actually are. You're insulting and ridiculing me."

I am very sorry, dear Nida, that my words made you feel insulted and ridiculed though I never intended that. In fact you appear to me an angel-like spirit, which make me feel as though I am talking with a real sister of mine. But I think we need not have personal relationship on this forum. That is why I had asked you about your e-mail. In fact in my view the real relationship among humans is friendship. You know Qabeel, a brother of Habeel, had killed his brother because of jealousy in marrying one of their real sisters.

As for intentions, Shakespeare says in Hamlet, "Nothing is good or bad but thinking makes it so". In the middle-class Muslim culture thinking about friendship among opposite sexes is considered to be bad when even the Quran says those Muslims who are not owners of kinship among you should be treated with kindness as friends as is written in the Book (of nature). (See verse 6 of Sura Ehzab 33).

Wassalam
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 9, 2006  -  2:49 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
But I think we need not have personal relationship on this forum. That is why I had asked you about your e-mail.

Let me get this straight: You don't wanna have a personal relationship on this forum, but you do wanna have a personal relationship via e-mail ; is that what you're trying to say?

You wrote:
In fact in my view the real relationship among humans is friendship. You know Qabeel, a brother of Habeel, had killed his brother because of jealousy in marrying one of their real sisters.

Well, don't friends ever kill each other? And I think I prefer to take the Prophet's (SAW) view on this: the real relationship between humans is brotherhood, because we were evolved from the same parents. Ofcourse brotherhood is like friendship, but it's purer, and it makes more sense (same parents...)

You also stated:
In the middle-class Muslim culture thinking about friendship among opposite sexes is considered to be bad...

It's considered bad because it usually leads to illegal relationships. But if two sexes wanna get together for an Islamic conversation, or they have clear intentions and are ready to keep up with their Islamic behaviours and mannerisms while being with each other, then there's absolutely no harm.
And the culture you're referring to is part of religion. You know how it happens in Pakistan, right? The environment over here that the girls and boys enjoy is not Islamic at all (if you've studied in the colleges of Pakistan): Girls are wearing indecent clothes in front of what would be called their 'boyfriends'; usually, no mahram is present when they meet; they talk vainly... etc. etc. It is this sort of relationship between the two sexes which is not liked by the "culture", and I too am a part of this "culture" as I'm a part of this "religion of human nature" (Islam)

But anyway, I've simply no problem at all in giving you my e-mail address.
Anyone can have it if he/she wants to: awan_nida@hotmail.com


Wassalaamu 'Alaikum, Wallaahu A'lam.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, December 11, 2006  -  5:51 AM Reply with quote
Yeah, ok, sure...I'll do that (although I don't think tilawat will ever get a chance to misguide me).
Thanks for the concern anyway.

Wassalaam.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, December 11, 2006  -  11:14 PM Reply with quote
quote:

instead of writing @ say at, because spammers will get your address and send more spam.

feel free to post issues that tilawat will most likely try to misguide you on, here... should you want to.

salaam


Don't worry Marwan. Poor Nida might be of your grand-mother's age. In any case, women may not be more intelligent than men but they are certainly more clever than their opposite gender. You should know it was Eve who had misguided Adam and not vice verse. Had she considered her to be a sister or daughter of Adam (After all she is stated to have been born from the rib of Adam) there would have been no scum like you today and no Nida to be saved by you.
Gain,later on it were the guiles of Zulekha which got Yousaf incarcerated for no fault of his. You should rest at peace about your sister Nida who can look after herself, but should worry about me, your brother, in gender.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, December 12, 2006  -  5:13 PM Reply with quote
Brother Tilawat, you wrote:
...it was Eve who had misguided Adam...

EXCUSE ME?!!! YOU'RE CONTRADICTING THE QUR'AN!!
Bro, what you're talking about is a Christian view! Are you Christian?!
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, December 12, 2006  -  11:53 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Brother Tilawat, you wrote:
...it was Eve who had misguided Adam...

EXCUSE ME?!!! YOU'RE CONTRADICTING THE QUR'AN!!
Bro, what you're talking about is a Christian view! Are you Christian?!



I am sorry if I did that unwittingly. Can you please quote the Quran wherein it contradicted the Christian view?

In my view it was not a matter of faith but of fact as to who between Adam and Eve was responsible for misguidance which led to their banishment from the paradise. My question is why they could not live in paradise forever as brother and sister instead of polluting it with... and why are we repeating that and worrying for our sisters to get married, i.e., to have a man as a husband instead of a brother? Afala tafakroon.

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