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tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 7, 2006  -  12:44 AM Reply with quote
Marwan

Here read this also in addition to my reply just recorded above:

"Islam and Muslims

Sir: A Western philosopher once said that “Islam is probably the best religion but its followers are the worst of all religions”. The decline of the Islamic world in the past 500 years is clear evidence that Muslims themselves are to blame. At the heart of the matter is a widespread belief among Muslim populations that they are God’s chosen and preferred people and superior to others.

That makes approximately 4.8 billion people (3/4th of the world) infidel, kaafir and jahanammi. The fallacy and absurdity of this idealism has pitched Islamic civilisation against the rest of the world. Do we ever pause to think why Muslims are involved in conflicts in most regions of the world? Why can’t they get along with anyone? I believe this is because most Muslims seem to be unable to respect other civilisations. Religion should be a means of ending people’s suffering not increasing them. One can only hope that the Muslims become less arrogant and learn to live amicably with people of other religions. That alone will lead to a lasting peace in the world.
IMRAN MOHAMMAD KHAN
Pennsylvania"

(Copy of a letter in Daily Times of Pakistan)
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 7, 2006  -  12:54 AM Reply with quote
Marwan

Here please read this also in addition to my reply just recorded above:

"Islam and Muslims

Sir: A Western philosopher once said that “Islam is probably the best religion but its followers are the worst of all religions”. The decline of the Islamic world in the past 500 years is clear evidence that Muslims themselves are to blame. At the heart of the matter is a widespread belief among Muslim populations that they are God’s chosen and preferred people and superior to others.

That makes approximately 4.8 billion people (3/4th of the world) infidel, kaafir and jahanammi. The fallacy and absurdity of this idealism has pitched Islamic civilisation against the rest of the world. Do we ever pause to think why Muslims are involved in conflicts in most regions of the world? Why can’t they get along with anyone? I believe this is because most Muslims seem to be unable to respect other civilisations. Religion should be a means of ending people’s suffering not increasing them. One can only hope that the Muslims become less arrogant and learn to live amicably with people of other religions. That alone will lead to a lasting peace in the world.
IMRAN MOHAMMAD KHAN
Pennsylvania"

(Copy of a letter in the Daily Times of Pakistan)
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  12:42 AM Reply with quote
regarding maria

http://www.al-mawrid.org/Content/ViewReaderQuestion.aspx?questionId=253
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  12:44 AM Reply with quote
salaam tilawaat.

You = Troll

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:21 PM
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  1:42 AM Reply with quote
Salaam Marwan

Excuse me, I am not confused but wanted to learn by raising hypothetical questions which do not necessarily represent my actual views as I, to borrow the words from Socrates, surely know that I know nothing.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  2:24 AM Reply with quote
Marwan said:

quote:

secularism is fairly pointless


I was wondering why you think that. What do you understand by secularism?
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  9:55 PM Reply with quote
Tilawat = Troll

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:21 PM
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  10:02 PM Reply with quote
Tilawat = troll

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:22 PM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006  -  10:30 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Very confusing topic, seem to be jumping from one to another!

quote:

The problem is mostly to do with the amoral, relativistic, hypocritical, capitalistic, power hungry and atheistic "western world". The lesser problems are of the Muslims, being the problems of improper Islam, an the spineless masses (which is unIslamic).


quote:

If there was no clash then all there would be is materialism and hedonism. Islam being against that will ALWAYS clash with the west till the day one side is destroyed. There cannot and will not be a middle ground between falsehood and truth. And as the immoral west will always seek to dominate so it can have more, peace will not just happen.

If there are sides, I have a feeling that the Muslims will have the pleasure of seeing you on the other side.


I am trying to understand countless cliches that you have posted. What exactly do you mean by islam being anti capitalist or anti materialistic. Exactly what do you think capitalism and materilaism is and how is Islam opposed to these.
Does Islam restrict materialism and to what degree/amount/extent etc.

Okay lets simplify things and start with one point at time:

(i) Capitalism - Let us even accept your ridiculous cliche notion that all the western societies have exactly the same capitalistic system.
Capitalism simplified to me means freedom to carry out free trade can you tell me exactly how this is different to Islamic economic system?

regards
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, November 9, 2006  -  6:30 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Salaam

Very confusing topic, seem to be jumping from one to another!

quote:

The problem is mostly to do with the amoral, relativistic, hypocritical, capitalistic, power hungry and atheistic "western world". The lesser problems are of the Muslims, being the problems of improper Islam, an the spineless masses (which is unIslamic).


quote:

If there was no clash then all there would be is materialism and hedonism. Islam being against that will ALWAYS clash with the west till the day one side is destroyed. There cannot and will not be a middle ground between falsehood and truth. And as the immoral west will always seek to dominate so it can have more, peace will not just happen.

If there are sides, I have a feeling that the Muslims will have the pleasure of seeing you on the other side.




quote:

I am trying to understand countless cliches that you have posted. What exactly do you mean by islam being anti capitalist or anti materialistic. Exactly what do you think capitalism and materilaism is and how is Islam opposed to these.


I post no clichés, perhaps your understanding goes no deeper than clichés. But in response to your questions: -

-Anti capitalist, understand this within the materialist context. Namely, that the goals of capitalism in the materialist context is a ruthless, amoral and selfish based enterprise whose only goal is dunya, namely the amassing of wealth purely for personal gain. An Islamic economic system is governed by the Qur'an, wealth and means are a blessing from Allah to be used for the betterment of all and the helping of the poor. The Islamic economy is not a ruthless "crush all who come in my way by any means available" one. I have no problem with private ownership and fair trading not based on usury, but money must not be allowed to accumulate in the hands of a few at the expense of the rest.

Materialism? this is obvious, any philosophy which takes as its axiom the non existence of Allah and which therefore ascribes all mind,morality and purpose etc to matter must be in direct opposition to Islam. I need say no more.

quote:

Does Islam restrict materialism and to what degree/amount/extent etc.


It restricts it 100%.


quote:

Okay lets simplify things and start with one point at time:

(i) Capitalism - Let us even accept your ridiculous cliche notion that all the western societies have exactly the same capitalistic system.
Capitalism simplified to me means freedom to carry out free trade can you tell me exactly how this is different to Islamic economic system?

regards


My statement was not a ridiculous cliché, it was general in scope precisely because of potential variants. But they all have similar goals and function under a similar materialistic philosophy. If there are exceptions, fine, that is the nature of a generalisation. The second part of your statement was answered above.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:28 PM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, November 9, 2006  -  11:46 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Did you say your statements ere not cliches?. You have not give on fact in your endless cliches unless you count this as a fact:

quote:

It restricts it 100%.


So does this mean that you have absolutely no material possessions?
Let us not muddle the issues and stick to this material point for the moment.

regards
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 9, 2006  -  11:56 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

Salaam Marwan

Excuse me, I am not confused but wanted to learn by raising hypothetical questions which do not necessarily represent my actual views as I, to borrow the words from Socrates, surely know that I know nothing.


I must say that what you wrote and the tone of what you wrote very much disproves your statement. It is my belief that you are a liberal muslim with leanings towards a secular order.

With Islam perhaps being relegated to a personal belief but having no world authority. Merely my impression


Excuse me dear Marwan you have become personal and judgmental. You seem to be a Muslim in terms of the following Quranic verse:

"Aayat 14, soorae hujraat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
"Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne kih imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho 'Musalman' yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq allah bakhshne wala mehrban he."

On a point of personal explanation I may tell you that I am not a Muslim but I am Islam as it is my 'self' (zaat). I am, so to say, an ethnically born Muslim, not a convert. So I do not need to make a show of my belief about which I myself even don't know as only God knows about it for sure.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  11:59 AM Reply with quote
perv1, your ignorance is truly amazing.

I said
quote:


Materialism? this is obvious, any philosophy which takes as its axiom the non existence of Allah and which therefore ascribes all mind,morality and purpose etc to matter must be in direct opposition to Islam. I need say no more.


MATERIALISM THE PHILOSOPHY. I SAID NOTHING ABOUT OWNERSHIP OF PERSONAL BELONGINGS!!!!!!!!

Thats it perv1, I am not discussing anything with you anymore. You are a waste of my time and clearly a troll.

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:51 PM
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  12:05 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

quote:

Salaam Marwan

Excuse me, I am not confused but wanted to learn by raising hypothetical questions which do not necessarily represent my actual views as I, to borrow the words from Socrates, surely know that I know nothing.


I must say that what you wrote and the tone of what you wrote very much disproves your statement. It is my belief that you are a liberal muslim with leanings towards a secular order.

With Islam perhaps being relegated to a personal belief but having no world authority. Merely my impression


Excuse me dear Marwan you have become personal and judgmental. You seem to be a Muslim in terms of the following Quranic verse:

"Aayat 14, soorae hujraat (49) mein Allah farmata he:
"Kaha ganwaron (Arab Awam) ne kih imaan laae ham. Keh nah iman laae tum lekin kaho 'Musalman' yehni maghloob hue ham aur abhi nahin daakhil hua iman biich tumhare dilonN meiN aur agar farmanbardari karo allah aur rasool uske ki nahin kam dega tumhaare amloN se kuchh. Tehqiq allah bakhshne wala mehrban he."

On a point of personal explanation I may tell you that I am not a Muslim but I am Islam as it is my 'self' (zaat). I am, so to say, an ethnically born Muslim, not a convert. So I do not need to make a show of my belief about which I myself even don't know as only God knows about it for sure.


So my description of you was actually correct.

Also, that verse does not describe me, I can hardly respond to it as you have produced no reasons for your selection.

But I will go on to say that you are not even good enough to fit into its catagory, because whereas the Bedouin submitted without the eeman entering their hearts. You have not even submitted, as you no doubt openly deny the laws of Allah (that don't suit you) and belittle others to suit your undeniable seculiberalism (I made that word up :-), its nice.)

Have a nice life.

salaam
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  12:42 PM Reply with quote
quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does Islam restrict materialism and to what degree/amount/extent etc.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Above was my initial qustion and your reply:



quote:

It restricts it 100%.


and now

quote:

perv1, your ignorance and liberal predjudice are truly amazing
.

Do you want to engage your brain, before you answer. Then you may understand what it is that you are trying to say.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:01 PM Reply with quote
perv = troll

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:54 PM

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