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oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  7:14 PM Reply with quote
marwan,

I do not understand, so please explain. You said Islam restricts materialism 100%. What do you mean. If we have jobs and earn a livenlihood to buy our family food, shelter, clothes, cars, houses, jewelry, etc. is that haram? All this is part of materialism, no? Otherwise we would be living in caves with no material possession. What do you mean?
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  10:03 PM Reply with quote
salaam

quote:

your ignorance and liberal predjudice are truly amazing.

you are truly pathetic.

You are a waste of my time.



Never mind. I hope pathetic me is not wasting every ones time, but can someone please clarify something for simple me:
If I own a car, number of nice clothes, TV, computer (well how else would I get on this forum) and many other similar material pssession then I am not materialistc but if i desire these things then I become materialistc. Hmmm! I am even more confused if one has no desire for these material things why does one possess them?
Please try to keep your explanations simple as I struggle with deep philosophical replies.
regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  10:14 PM Reply with quote
i think marwan explained materialism well. Life should not be dictated by material things.

Material things are not the goal, only means to the goal. As long as we use material things as a means to the end, then it is fine. But when material objects become our goal, then it is a fruitless ambition.

If you own tv, comptuer etc to educate yourself and do something benefecial for the sake of Allah, then that is not materialism. But if you have all the nice things to be a showoff and be with the vogue, then that is fruitless.

Edited by: oosman on Friday, November 10, 2006 10:16 PM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  10:48 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

think marwan explained materialism well. Life should not be dictated by material things.

Material things are not the goal, only means to the goal. As long as we use material things as a means to the end, then it is fine. But when material objects become our goal, then it is a fruitless ambition.

quote:

If you own tv, comptuer etc to educate yourself and do something benefecial for the sake of Allah, then that is not materialism. But if you have all the nice things to be a showoff and be with the vogue, then that is fruitless


Very good even simple me is beginning to understand. However I am still a bit confused. If I can have all these material things then without it being unislamic how is Islamm 100% against materialism. My understanding of 100% is everything?
Also if I acculmulate material things because I just like them i.e just enjoy nice coloured marbles and not because I want to show off. At what point does it become unIslamic and exactl how many marbles is acceptable for me to own or am I not allowed to have any marbles because they have no function other than I get pleasure from just owning them. How sad do I now have to get rid of my marbles?

Also for basic human survival one only needs very little in terms of clothes, food and shelter. Then acquistion, or desire, of anything more than what is needed for our survival not become goal for material things?

regards
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  11:07 PM Reply with quote
marwan

Are slaves, especially the young beautiful females, and the hoors of heaven a material thing? Is desiring possession of all these by a believer above his life even is not 'hedonism'?
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  2:23 AM Reply with quote
salaam tilawat,

it seems your another to misunderstand.

I do not agree with the possibility to have slaves, male or female, qur'anically.

Regarding hoor, I see them as companions to which we will be married in Jannah.

please note... i can't believe I have to say this again... PLEEEAAAASSEEE NOTE!!!!!!!!!!

I distinguish between the philosophy of materialism and the ownership of material objects.

So owning a car does not make a philosophical materialist.

Being a Muslim and desiring most of all the acquisition of material things in dunya makes you materialistic (as in acting LIKE you are a philosophical materialist), makes you misguided and possibly a mushrik.

Being a hedonist means that one worships his or her own desires. Such a person seeks for the things that please them apart from morality, revelation or anything else. Such people are generally materialists.

But just wanting or getting something that one may like does not make one a hedonist. If you don't know why the distinction exists, I don't feel like teaching you.

please think before asking anymore.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, November 11, 2006 2:27 AM
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  11:19 AM Reply with quote
Salaam marwan

quote:

I don't feel like teaching you.


Without being offensive your arrogance is breathtaking.

If there is to be a meaning discussion (or in your case teaching the ignorant souls like me) you have to be clear what you are talking about. That is why at the very beginning i asked you define what you mean by Capitalism and materialism. If your understandin of these is exact opposite then we can go around in circles disagreeing on subject when in essence we might be in agreement. However our disagreement arises from the fact we have differnt understanding of the word. Some word are very clear and there can be no disputing there meaning e.g. physically dead, I think there can be broad agreemnt on this.
If however you are discussing very simple word like doing good. On the surface it might seem a straight forward word who can object to doing good. But it all depends on who you are discussing it with and what is your definition of good. Let us for example say you discuss this with a American neo con... His idea of good may be to spread christianity and punish those he considers non believers and may feel it is good to bomb and kill muslims because they are non believers. I am certain that would not be your idea of doing good!
Therefore your idea that somehow people can somehow acquirie materialistic things without desire just beggars belief. Whether I desired a car or miraculously appeared in my possession is irrelevent the end result is the same.
If I have time later today I will explain to you in ABC manner why materialism may actually be a very Islamic concept.

You have used words like capitalism etc without really having the understanding or explaining what you mean.
OK let me give you another simple political example. The communist regimes such as the old Soviet Union all considerd themself as Socialists. Also Tony Blair also considered himself a Socialist. Do you think they believed in the same philosophy. I am sure some of the right wingers in the USA probably viewed Clintons as socialists.

Cliches are very dangerous and make too many generalisations.

Having siad all that. You might find that if you consider what we actually believe as muslims you might find that our views may not be too disimilar but you have to be very clear what you mean as very simple words may have very opposite meaning for individuals.
Believe it or not when you first posted on this forum I was very impressed with your views... however it does not mean we have to agree on everything.... however it is silly to appear to be disagreeing when we cannot accurately define what we are discussing. I am soory if there are any mistakes or ramblings i am in bit of rush so have not checked properly.
regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  3:15 PM Reply with quote
salaam all.

Sorry i am not a fan of long articles but I seem to problem getting across issues re - materialism and capitalism so here is a quick article I havecompiled.

please note... i can't believe I have
quote:

to say this again... PLEEEAAAASSEEE NOTE!!!!!!!!!!

I distinguish between the philosophy of materialism and the ownership of material objects.


Let us see if you can see the hypocrisy of the above statement from what i have written below.

quote:

So owning a car does not make a philosophical materialist.


Why not, it is material possession. So I see someone who threatens to kill is worst than someone who actually kills!

quote:

Being a Muslim and desiring most of all the acquisition of material things in dunya makes you materialistic (as in acting LIKE you are a philosophical materialist), makes you misguided and possibly a mushrik.

Being a hedonist means that one worships his or her own desires. Such a person seeks for the things that please them apart from morality, revelation or anything else. Such people are generally materialists.


Ok tell me what you disagree with my remarks regarding why you are in Ireland. If you are there for material gain does this make you mushrik?


quote:

But just wanting or getting something that one may like does not make one a hedonist. If you don't know why the distinction exists, I don't feel like teaching you.


Might be because you have not a clue?


quote:

please think before asking anymore


It would be a good idea if all the muslims starting thinking a litte more and get out of their holier than thou attitude.




MATERIALISM:- To me means desire for material things. As far as I can accurately recall I have not personally come across anyone who has zero desire for material things. There are many who claim that they have no desire for material possession just spirituality. However I have in practice found these people just as materialistic as any other. Because they in their own way try to earn money, whether by work or other means and often their material possessions, whether it is goods or simply money is limited by their earning capacity. It is not, for me anyway, to measure peoples desires but the result of their actions and desires.
Let us take this forum for example, I am going to make few generalizations and assumptions here, there are very many who are at present in the Western countries and they predominantly originate from the Indian subcontinent. O.K. Let us be even more specific. My friend Marwan who has been so critical of the materialism. He originates (unless he is a Irish convert & I am making an assumption that he is not a convert) from a Muslim country and he is in Ireland. So from this I deduce that he is in Ireland to work because, what ever line of work, he is likely to be paid more than his country of origin. Does this not fit in with materialistic philosophy? As if he is in the Southern part he will be predominantly amongst the Catholics and in the North both the Protestants and Catholics so my conclusion from this is that he is not in Ireland for spiritual reasons. I could be completely wrong and he is welcome to correct me.
Also my understanding of the politics is that both the Irelands are capitalistic societies so it is unlikely that he is there for political reasons for we know his political views regarding capitalism.
So the only inference I can draw from this is that he is in Ireland at present for materialistic gain in a society whose political system he openly abhors.


Is materialism against Islam?

Most people are in infinitely different occupations to acquire material wealth. Some are more successful than others. Whatever nature of ones work it enables individuals to gather material wealth i.e. money. They have many options with this money. I will just touch on few.
(i) They can horde it and be of little use to themselves or anyone else.
(ii) Give it to a lazy so called religious person who has never done a days work, but has been applying the philosophy that to him spiritualism is more important than materialism and has spent most of his time in prayer. Obviously he/she also needs food, clothes, shelter etc to survive so is dependant on charity of others. Although the Quran is clear that the learned is far more important in the eyes of the Lord than he who spends all the time in prayer. Learned is not just someone who studies the Quran 0nly. Learned is a teacher, doctor, lawyer, philosopher etc.
(iii) Or one can go and spend this money and buy a material possession. Let us for example say a carpet (not something essential for survival). Buying this carpet will set off a chain reaction where that particular expenditure may benefit hundreds or even thousands of people. The money is spent in a shop (shopkeeper and his employees), shopkeeper buys from a ware house, warehouse guys buys from a factory, factory employs workers & buys material from St elsewhere…….. so the chain goes on and on and different people benefit (to a varying degree). This my friends is a very Islamic concept because there is no hording and acquisition of material things benefits the whole society.


CAPITALISM:- Simplified it means to be able carry out free trade. If my history is correct to whom the Quran, initially, was revealed was a business man. Also I am not aware that the Quran puts any restriction in how much material wealth you can gain from business. Can anyone tell me how capitalism is different from the Islamic system.
Please do not confuse unpleasant humans who use any system for oppression and evil ideology, because these are present in all forms of system.

regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  3:29 PM Reply with quote
well said.
llina

GERMANY
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  7:21 AM Reply with quote
salam
a simple comment without any ..ism.

God created heaven and earth
We are living in our physical body on the physical earth and have some spiritual part at the same time and as the important thing we should develope.

Jus keep it simple. Wonderful nature, nice smiling children, a tasty fruit to eat, hard work and relaxation after it all these are in physical world but with great effect on our soul. so we can chose to do what brings us nearer to God when we wish to. ان شاء الله
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  12:34 PM Reply with quote
Assalaamu 'Alaikum everyone.
Coming back to the topic, I would like to ask a question regarding verse 31 of Surah Noor. It says, "...they should not display their beauty except to...the slaves whom their right hands possess...". When this verse was revealed, what were the circumstances regarding slaves? I'm currently trying to explain this verse to a 14-year-old. When I reach the part "slaves whom their right hands possess", this girl is definitely gonna get confused as to why Allah allowed women to not wear Hijaab in front of their slaves. Can anyone tell me as to why slaves were considered mahrams at that time?
I need the answer quick.
oosman

USA
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  1:55 PM Reply with quote
It is quite simple, the men were allowed sexual relations with the slaves. So what is the point of hijab from the masters?

Only later on verses was revealed (I may be wrong about the timing of the verse though), that you should marry the slaves if you cannot marry free women.

4.25 "If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And Allah hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable ... "

I think this was a gradual way of introducing the nikkah concept, so now you have to marry the slaves before sexual relations.

I may be wrong, Allah knows best.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  2:07 PM Reply with quote
salaam nida,

Because Ma malakat aymaanuhum refers to girls/women who are under the authority or care of the woman/man.

And Allah never Allowed men or women to have sex with their so called slaves, as Allah defines such things as zina which is why they must be married if such a thing is to happen.

salaam,
Marwan
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  7:11 PM Reply with quote
Salaam marwan

I tried to keep the article as simple as possible to enable the teenagers on this forum to understand it. I am sorry I did not realise that you were even younger.

quote:

I'm sorry to say perv but your mind is truly perverted to such a level that logical thought is now impossible.

I will respond to you one last time and annihilate your pathetic arguments and show them to be the mindless ramblings they are.

I am dumbstruck by your lack of intellect...

I'm really sorry to get personal in this but I really suggest some counselling for you... Perhaps as a youth you had a traumatic experience when you thought logically and now you just can't... I hope you can get help
...

I know you might be too young to understand but if you ask your parents (i am sure that they are good muslims) they will explain to you that being rude in a discussion is very unislamic.

I am also sorry that the post was bit long and you found it difficult to grasp it.
However please could you ask your mum and dad why they are in Ireland is it for because they want spirituality of the christian religion, the capitalist political system or is that they just want to earn loads of more money (& I am sure your mummy and daddy will be able to explain to you that money is for buying material things).
Oh and please dont be rude because sitting behind a computer screen and being rude is not brave (I am sure your mummy and daddy will agree) but cowardic and we dont good muslim boys/girls growing up as cowards do we? esp in a society where they are in minority. Take care and be nice to your mummy and daddy.
bye, bye
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  10:22 PM Reply with quote
Salaam llina

quote:

salam
a simple comment without any ..ism.

God created heaven and earth
We are living in our physical body on the physical earth and have some spiritual part at the same time and as the important thing we should develope.

Jus keep it simple. Wonderful nature, nice smiling children, a tasty fruit to eat, hard work and relaxation after it all these are in physical world but with great effect on our soul. so we can chose to do what brings us nearer to God when we wish to. ان شاء الله


Beautiful name & beautifuly said.
welcome
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, November 13, 2006  -  12:39 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Assalaamu 'Alaikum everyone.
Coming back to the topic, I would like to ask a question regarding verse 31 of Surah Noor. It says, "...they should not display their beauty except to...the slaves whom their right hands possess...". When this verse was revealed, what were the circumstances regarding slaves? I'm currently trying to explain this verse to a 14-year-old. When I reach the part "slaves whom their right hands possess", this girl is definitely gonna get confused as to why Allah allowed women to not wear Hijaab in front of their slaves. Can anyone tell me as to why slaves were considered mahrams at that time?
I need the answer quick.


quote:

Assalaamu 'Alaikum everyone.
Coming back to the topic, I would like to ask a question regarding verse 31 of Surah Noor. It says, "...they should not display their beauty except to...the slaves whom their right hands possess...". When this verse was revealed, what were the circumstances regarding slaves? I'm currently trying to explain this verse to a 14-year-old. When I reach the part "slaves whom their right hands possess", this girl is definitely gonna get confused as to why Allah allowed women to not wear Hijaab in front of their slaves. Can anyone tell me as to why slaves were considered mahrams at that time?
I need the answer quick.


Very interesting question indeed. But this is a general problem resulting from the fact that Islam, a religion basically meant for 7th century Makky traders, raises many questions in the minds of the new generation, especially of the middle class with a mindset of 21st century global village, which are unanswerable today. What to speak of children even mature learned persons touch their ears when reading some Islamic books regarding Hadees and Fiqqah. You read ‘Hidaaya’, a relatively recent book on fiqah, which deals largely with the rules governing slavery in Islam. To quote a sample from the book, it allows a son to have sex with a slave of his father in the capacity of being his inheritor.

I had a similar problem when I had tried to teach Quran to my children. I started with Soorae Ehzab (The Clans). Coming to verse 4, which reads:

“Allah has not assigned unto any man two hearts within his body, nor hath he made your wives whom you declare (to be your mothers) your mothers, nor hath he made those whom ye claim (to be your sons) your sons. This is but a saying of your mouth. But Allah sayeth the truth and He showeth the way” (Pickthall)

and then verse 5 which says:

“Proclaim their real parentage… (et esq.)”

and so on when I came to verse 6 on the same page which reads:

“The Prophet is closer to the believers then their selves and his wives are their mothers…”

my 14 years old daughter, a student of secondary class, spoke out, why this contradiction on the same page.

I had no answer and closed my ‘Dars-eQuran’ for ever.

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