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marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 4, 2006  -  10:05 AM Reply with quote
tilawat

you say

"How can you legitimize those who are born out of 'zina' (called 'Walduzzina'). It's a very tricky problem which, in my humble view, can be solved only if you treat sex-relationship as a purely cultural function having no cut-out point."

What exactly do you mean by this. If you truly believe this you are taking a very secular and non - islamic approach to this.

salaam
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 4, 2006  -  11:38 PM Reply with quote
That is what exactly I wanted to bring out. We may believe or not, the fact is that the secular objective reality is not governed by subjective rules of faith. You may believe whatever you like but it does not impinge in any way on secular laws. For example, Islam as a religion was born out of Arab, Ummi, City traders' culture and carries the imprints of that culture, like polygamy, slavery, etc., and above all their exclusivist obscurantist fundamentalist world view to this day. This is what is making their co-existence difficult today with the modern culture of the global village and resulting in what they call 'Clash of Civilizations'.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  2:13 AM Reply with quote
Tilawat is a troll.

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:15 PM
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  5:59 AM Reply with quote
brother Marwan salaam,

Can I ak you to clarify, what is your understanding of the issue related with Hazrat Mariaa, in light of your knowledge
many thanks
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  8:10 AM Reply with quote
Islamic laws are as changeable as the weather.
It changes with the condition available to its follower.

Its an established rule of fiqh.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  11:07 AM Reply with quote
Salaam raushan,

Could you educate me as to the Islamic, that is Qur'anic laws that are as changeable as you refer?

By this I mean not the opinions of scholars or the rulings of other than Allah, as they hold no weight with Allah and so hold no weight with me.

salaam
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  11:34 AM Reply with quote
salaam waseem,

I must state that the topic of Mariaa is not one I have given much time to, but I can state something on it based upon other knowledge.

If Muhammad followed the Qur'an, and he did, then he did not have sex with her before marrying her.

I'll give you verse which will help you to see why: -

4 : 25
"And whoso is not able to afford to marry believing chaste/virtuous women, let them
marry from the believing maids/girls/young women over whom you have authority/responsibility.
Allah knoweth best (concerning) your faith. Ye (proceed) one from another; so wed them by permission of their folk (people or family), and give unto them their portions in kindness, they being honest, not debauched nor of loose conduct. And if when they are honourably married they commit lewdness/obscenities/vulgarities they shall incur the half of the punishment (prescribed) for believing chaste/virtuous women (in that case).
This is for him among you who feareth affliction/ to commit sin. But to have patience would be better for you. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

+ read ayahs 26 to 28.

(I will only basically discuss this until I get around to writing about it.)

They are girls/young women who you can marry with the permission of their family/people. (This may be due to the fact that as they are under your authority and care, it is possible they may feel forced or obliged to accept, and so the people or family of the woman is asked also).


‘This is for him among you who feareth to commit sin.’, this is referring to the proviso to marry such maidens, not to the half punishment they are getting. You get married to keep you from fornication and adultery (i.e., to fulfill your (and her) needs in a lawful manner), this is the sin spoken of in the above quoted phrase. So if you fear that you may not be able to control yourself long enough to afford to marry believing chaste/virtuous women, then, to avoid the sin of Zina you can marry from the believing maids/girls/young women over whom you have authority/responsibility.

This means that you marry such women to AVOID sinning (i.e., zina). Whereas many Muslims think the Qur'an states that you can have free sex with Ma Malakat aymanukum.

So basically, I would say that if Muslims claim that Muhammad had sex with a slave, well then they claim that he committed zina.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  1:48 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Islamic laws are as changeable as the weather.
It changes with the condition available to its follower.

Its an established rule of fiqh.

salam,

what i had in my mind"It changes with the condition available to its follower.'' or I may wronged while translating the word "weather".

changing the condition:
e.g.For a baby ,praying 5 time isnt obligatory until he matures.

a poor has nothing to do with zakat until reaches to the capacity of " nisaab"

sorryitz my mistake
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  2:23 PM Reply with quote
quote:

salam,

what i had in my mind"It changes with the condition available to its follower.'' or I may wronged while translating the word "weather".

changing the condition:
e.g.For a baby ,praying 5 time isnt obligatory until he matures.

a poor has nothing to do with zakat until reaches to the capacity of " nisaab"

sorryitz my mistake


I see. Well what we are talking about it very different.

The Qur'anic laws are not changeable, they are fixed. It is the capacity of the person to fulfil them that is changeable and dependant upon the individual.

On the other hand, secular laws are changeable apart from the individual's capacity. For example, laws on murder, robbery, public indecency etc etc... As man made laws have no fixed basis, they can change with the help of the media and the government and pressure groups.

So there is a massive difference.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:17 PM
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  5:39 PM Reply with quote
My understanding of Hazrat Maria is that she was a slave prsented by the ruler of Egypt. She wa a Christian and never embraced Islam. The prophet had been forbidden by then that he could not have any more wives. He never married her. He had two children from her.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 5, 2006  -  5:54 PM Reply with quote
If that is true then Muslim historians are saying that Muhammad was a fornicator. Plain and simple.

I would rather take the Qur'an as testimony to the character of a messenger who lived by it. Muhammad did NOT fornicate, he did NOT have any children with a concubine.

salaam
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, November 6, 2006  -  1:13 AM Reply with quote
quote:

If that is true then Muslim historians are saying that Muhammad was a fornicator. Plain and simple.

I would rather take the Qur'an as testimony to the character of a messenger who lived by it. Muhammad did NOT fornicate, he did NOT have any children with a concubine.

salaam


Excuse me dear Marwan you have become too judgmental, judging everything on the basis of you fixed subjective notions about Islam and morality. According to the general belief of Judaic religions prophets are believed to be 'Masoom' (Not capable of committing sin). As it is the believer has to suspend his personal judgment and only to follow the prophet he believes. In fact religion and morality or ethics do not always correlate. One has even to suspend one's commonsense (aql) to be a religion monger.

As for the secular or natural laws you cannot escape them even if you hate them. I may believe in Islam egotistically like you and feel superior to those considered to be non-muslims or secular but what difference does it make to the laws of nature. One is to grow old to an age called 'Arzal' by Quran and die irrespective of one's belief. More later on.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, November 6, 2006  -  6:18 AM Reply with quote
I think we are missing the plot. Prophet Mohammad pbuh is our prophet and messeneger.Maa'z Allah his conduct and character can never be doubted. He was ALlah's chosen messenger.

I think the issue is that we are trying to look at an issue that happened 1400 years ago with the outlook of 2006

What about Hazrat Ibrahim pbuh, Hazrat Hajirah and birth of Hazrat Ismael pbuh.
Qamar058

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, November 6, 2006  -  6:43 PM Reply with quote
My dear brotheren! Islam as a vital force has come for the honor, grace and self respect of humanity WA-LAQAD KARRAMMNA BANI ADAM (17:70). It releaves the humanity of the self laden burdens, what to talk of loading it more. Slavery in any form and shape is unacceptable to the very sense of Quran. It has eradicated the evil of slavery, in the first instance, by giving incentive for setting free the already enslaved human beings. Secondly by closing the doors for further enslavement when in 47:4 it ordered to release all captives of war once peace is established. "Therefore when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight) smite at their necks; at length when ye have thoroughly subdued them bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you some with others. But those who are slain in the way of Allah He will never let their deeds be lost."

Mind it that war has been the only source of slavery in the ancient Arab world. Highlight in red nees attention.

Furthermore, if muslim rulers have been in possession of large 'Harms' it cannot be said as islamic education. If Nakhas was run in civilization center of muslim empire it is not mistake of Isalm but that of the people.

One more food for thought:
If extra marital relation with female slaves is allowed, why it is not allowed for male slaves? 'Ma Malakat Aimanukum' is not gendre specific. MOMENOON in all respects concerns both genders as far as relavent ayaat of Surah 23 and 70 are concerned.

Please think!
Qamar058
Qamar058

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, November 6, 2006  -  7:35 PM Reply with quote
quote:

From tilawat
As it is the believer has to suspend his personal judgment and only to follow the prophet he believes. In fact religion and morality or ethics do not always correlate. One has even to suspend one's commonsense (aql) to be a religion monger.
Your perception of Islam is mistaken. Islam invites the beleiver on rationality and not blind faith. Please read 12:108 which says: "Say thou: "This my way: I do invite unto Allah on evidence clear as the seeing with one's eyes I and whoever follows me:(ALA BASEERATAN) Glory to Allah! and never will I join gods with Allah!"

"Haatu Burahanakum In Kun Tum Sadiqeen" is the tall claim of Quran. Can you defy it?
Iman acceptable to God of Isalm (ALLAH) is the Iman Ala Baseerat and not blindfolded. Your notion of religion is based upon the doctrine of corrupted religions. IBAD-UR-REHMAN, in Quran's words, are those who dont fall on the Ayaat blindly but with full concious (25:73). If Muslims beleive in the hight of the character of their beloved prophet, they beleive so on Burhan and evidence of the divine testimony.

quote:


As for the secular or natural laws you cannot escape them even if you hate them. I may believe in Islam egotistically like you and feel superior to those considered to be non-muslims or secular but what difference does it make to the laws of nature. One is to grow old to an age called 'Arzal' by Quran and die irrespective of one's belief. More later on.


Taking Isalm in contrast to the nature is another mistake of the secular minds. Natural laws are not the secular rules of business but the Values set by the creater. ZALIKA TAQDEER-IL-AZIZ-IR-RAHEEM. If secular minds enjoy the benifits of exploration of these laws, it is the Creater Who designs it and orders the (benificiery) human beings to explore it. Ayaat 2:164 and 3:187-188 are very clear on the subject. Please study it if you want to clear your mind.
Please think!
Qamar058

Edited by: Qamar058 on Monday, November 06, 2006 7:37 PM
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 7, 2006  -  12:34 AM Reply with quote
Marwan

You say:
"If there are sides, I have a feeling that the Muslims will have the pleasure of seeing you on the other side."

You mean,like they did with Hussain, the beloved grandson of the prophet, in Karbala and are doing with his progeny by target killing them in the Pakland, which the mullah claim was established in the name of Islam. More later on.

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