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aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, April 23, 2010  -  10:21 AM Reply with quote
quote:


.........WHY .........SUFIS are following MATWAZI DEEN ???
Please visit the sites I have linked above for the answer.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Friday, April 23, 2010  -  12:59 PM Reply with quote
atifrafi====> u again tempted me to say something....although , being afraid that Ghamdi team would accuse me to bring fitna, i tried to hold me not to comment further in this topic...

to be in short...
i support your objection and it is valid...

nobody is giving answer, what u and me asked....
we r not supporting here that sufism is correct or great...

what our point is as below:

2.
quote:

No One Claims that this Meditation is COMPULSORY for muslims... Even if it WRONG, Maximum you can say is that they are indulged in some wrong doing ( Which is due to a misconception )... Matwazi Deen is still a very STRONG Allegation

My earlier question is still un-answered:




I also agreed what u said below:::

quote:

Either Announce Different Sects like Shias as a Matwaazi Deen or don't say this to anyone. To be Honest, this was a VERY BIG shock for me when I read that Ghamidi Sb has said so because as far as I know him he NEVER used such STRONG words for ANYONE...



why miskeen (non violent sufis) people are subject of harsh wording, instead they should be convinced with wisdom and kindness.

quote:

Ghamidi Sb NEVER used these kind of words even for QADIANIS... he used to call them MAXIMUM as another SECT of ISLAM... I am really surprised that QADIANIS are Just a Sect and SUFIS are following a Matwazi Deen...


here I disagree with you...Ghamdi sahib does not consider Qadiani as a sect of Islam....he considers them out of Islam...but he critisized the majority of scholars the way they treated them and now they are very strong community in Norway, germany, england , france , USA and Canada...
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, April 24, 2010  -  12:23 PM Reply with quote
quote:

safimera CANADA - Posted - Friday, April 23, 2010 - 12:59 PM
.....No One Claims that this Meditation is COMPULSORY for muslims... Even if it WRONG, Maximum you can say is that they are indulged in some wrong doing ( Which is due to a misconception )... Matwazi Deen is still a very STRONG Allegation.....
That allegation is not only because of their meditation.

They, the Sufis have their own interpretation of Tawhid different from what the Sahaba and the Salaf learnt and understood from the Qur'an and Sunnah.

Their Tawheed reflects different creeds and is considered by many as “hidden knowledge” which may be only attained by the elite. Soofee mystics claim that Allaah is incarnated in special Soofee saints. Amongst the most daring Soofis who held to the concept of incarnation was Al-Hallaaj who was tried for his heresy and put to death by the‘Abbaasid authorities.

Some see Allaah as the only existing being. This is stressed by AlGhazaalee, may Allaah forgive him, in his book Ihyaa ‘Ulum ad-Deen. He said: “Anyone who does not see Allaah in everything, then he sees ‘other’ than Him,” and that “The pure Tawheed is to see in everything nothing but Allaah .” [See Ihyaa’, V. 1, p. 288.]

Al- Ghazaalee stresses that the utmost objective of Tawheed is to see, “Al-Kull (everything) not as Katheer (many), but as one’.

Ibn ‘Arabi considered all kinds creeds to be true and he believed in them all. This is his “Unity of Worship”.

In the sight of the mystic Soofis, the Prophet (s.a.w) is looked upon in ways that oppose the path which Allaah (s.w.t)intended for the believers.

The Soofee mystics refer to Prophet
Muhammad (s.a.w) as being the “Perfect Man” or the “Al-Haqeeqah Al-Muhammadiyyah”: The Thaat (Essence of
Allaah) in its first designation; to him (Muhammad s.a.w)
belongs all of the Most Beautiful Names [of Allaah] and that he is Al-Ism Al-A’tham (Allaah’s Greatest Name).

From Muhammad, the entire creation, this world and the Hereafter, was brought to exist!!

They consider the Prophet (s.a.w) as the first created being and from him originated rest of creation and that he
himself is the God who is above the Throne. Such concept is similar to the philosophical concept of the “first cause” or the “first active intellect” from whom the creation emanated.

Some Soofis hold to the same concept as above but do not say that the essence of Muhammad is above the ‘Arsh.

Many Soofis claim that the light of Muhammad (s.a.w) is the first being, and that he is the most honorable of
creation, and for his sake Allaah has created the universe. They do not explicitly say that the creatures originated from him.

Most Soofis, however, concur that the Prophet (s.a.w) is the essence of emanation of all knowledge. Some of them
consider that this emanation iseternal, meaning that it is present even before the existence of Muhammad (s.a.w). That is why a large sector of the Soofis believe that the Prophet (s.a.w)
knows the Ghayb and that nothing escapes his knowledge in the heavens and on the earth.

Such concepts, beliefs, and practices concerning the Prophet (s.a.w) are corrupt and contradict the Message of the Qur’aan and Sunnah as well as the way of the true believers, the Sahaabah and those who followed them on the path of righteousness, (may Allaah be pleased with them all.)


Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, April 24, 2010 1:33 PM
samra

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, April 24, 2010  -  1:04 PM Reply with quote
I heard in a Milad that the Prophet PBUH had no shadow. Does that make him a sufi? Because he was Noorani and different from us. A reflection of Allaah SWT

سب مل كے جھومو اور پڑھو درود
صلي للہ عليہ وسلم
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, April 24, 2010  -  1:24 PM Reply with quote
quote:

I heard in a Milad that the Prophet PBUH had no shadow. Does that make him a sufi? Because he was Noorani and different from us. A reflection of Allaah SWT
With regard to the report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was created from the light of Allaah, this is a fabricated hadeeth.

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was human and did not differ in his human make-up from other people.

He had a shadow like any other human.

The Prophethood with which Allaah honoured him did not alter the fact that he was human as Allaah created him, with a father and mother.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“Say (O Muhammad): I am only a man like you. It has been revealed to me that your Ilaah (God) is One Ilaah (God ___i.e. Allaah)”

[al-Kahf 18:110]
quote:

“Their Messengers said to them: We are no more than human beings like you”

[Ibraaheem 14:11]
The state of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) in his humanity is the same as that of all the Prophets and Messengers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“And We did not create them (the Messengers, with) bodies that ate not food, nor were they immortals”

[al-Anbiya’ 21:8]
Allaah condemned those who wondered at the humanity of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), as He says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“And they say: Why does this Messenger (Muhammad) eat food, and walk about in the markets (as we)…?”

[al-Furqaan 25:8]
It is not permissible to overstep the mark with regard to what the Qur’aan states about the message and humanity of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). For example, it is not permissible to describe him (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) as being noor (light) or as casting no shadow, or to say that he was created from light. Rather this is a kind of exaggeration which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) forbade when he said:
quote:

“Do not exaggerate about me as was exaggerated about ‘Eesa ibn Maryam. Say: the slave of Allaah and His Messenger.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 6830.
Moreover it is proven that the angels are the ones who were created from light, not any of the sons of Adam. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said:
quote:

“The angels were created from light, and Iblees was created from smokeless fire, and Adam (peace be upon him) was created from what has been described to you.” Narrated by Muslim, 2996.
Shaykh al-Albaani (may Allaah have mercy on him) said in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah (458):
quote:

This indicates that the well known hadeeth that is in circulation among people – “The first thing that Allaah created was the light of your Prophet, O Jaabir” – is false, and so are other similar ahaadeeth which say that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was created from light. This hadeeth clearly indicates that the angels are the only ones who are created from light, not Adam and his sons, so pay heed and do not be negligent.


Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, April 24, 2010 1:28 PM
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Saturday, April 24, 2010  -  2:52 PM Reply with quote
aboosait===> salam..

thank u very much for your reply..
first time u answered according to my IQ level....as I do not have too much knowledge about islam..but i am student and i always try to question with logic and authentic evidences...

what u said , I learned a lot from it...but let me allow to argue little on following points...




quote:

They, the Sufis have their own interpretation of Tawhid different from what the Sahaba and the Salaf learnt and understood from the Qur'an and Sunnah.


i disagree......they believe in our Tawheed first and then they do addition.
In this way, they are doing "bida't" (innovation).. but they did not become non-muslim.



quote:

Soofee mystics claim that Allaah is incarnated in special Soofee saints. Amongst the most daring Soofis who held to the concept of incarnation was Al-Hallaaj who was tried for his heresy and put to death by the‘Abbaasid authorities.


AL hallaj is that so-called sufi, who was hanged by fatwa of NOT only non-sufi scholars but some big sufis of that time (Junaid baghdadi one of them)...and even after his death till long time, many sufis condemn him openly....
So please do not make him your example in order to consider all sufis as NON-MUSLIM....




quote:

AlGhazaalee, may Allaah forgive him, in his book Ihyaa ‘Ulum ad-Deen. He said: “Anyone who does not see Allaah in everything, then he sees ‘other’ than Him,” and that “The pure Tawheed is to see in everything nothing but Allaah .”


this is really a misguided statement in its apparent sense....but it could be in tashbeeh form....
a person is so obssessed with GOd that he sees everywhere GOD...
what is wrong in saying it in Tashbeeh..
when there is flood in a city, everbody would say that
"I saw water everywhere...or "whereever I see , it is water"
..does it mean that in every inch of that city is water...

personally I believe that this is a misguided statement..but how it makes them non-muslim???
u can say them..."sinner"!!!





quote:

Ibn ‘Arabi considered all kinds creeds to be true and he believed in them all. This is his “Unity of Worship”.


many latter scholars who believed in sufism (many deobandi scholars) .... consider ibn-arabi a misguided sufi (as Hallaj)..so he is controversial....he does not represent the all sufi group..



quote:

In the sight of the mystic Soofis, the Prophet (s.a.w) is looked upon in ways that oppose the path which Allaah (s.w.t)intended for the believers.


yes ! this is wrong but how u would kick them out of islam for this reason????..again they could be sinner but not non-muslim...




quote:

The Soofee mystics refer to Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) as being the “Perfect Man”


what is wrong in it ...after all they consider Him (PBUH) a man...u can disagree if u want.....




quote:

From Muhammad, the entire creation, this world and the Hereafter, was brought to exist!! They consider the Prophet (s.a.w) as the first created being and from him originated rest of creation


again, this is their belief...what is against islam here???....
u can disagree with this concept...this is not against basic of islam.



quote:


and that he
himself is the God who is above the Throne.


this is again a wrong allegation on them...No authentic and famous sufi said like that....many quack or dappa pir may have said , I do not know...

please be reasonable and give good authentic evidence from authentic sufis' books ..(like Ghazali ..u gave earlier)





quote:

Some Soofis hold to the same concept as above but do not say that the essence of Muhammad is above the ‘Arsh.


again it is an allegation..prove it or do not say please....




quote:

Many Soofis claim that the light of Muhammad (s.a.w) is the first being, and that he is the most honorable of creation and for his sake Allaah has created the universe.


u can disagree with this but how it is against basic islam???





quote:

and that he is the most honorable of creation,


I think u and me and all muslims believe this.....




quote:

that the Prophet (s.a.w)
knows the Ghayb and that nothing escapes his knowledge in the heavens and on the earth.


again it is an exagerated belief...u can disagree....but it is not enough to consider then non-muslim...





quote:

Such concepts, beliefs, and practices concerning the Prophet (s.a.w) are corrupt and contradict the Message of the Qur’aan and Sunnah as well as the way of the true believers, the Sahaabah and those who followed them on the path of righteousness, (may Allaah be pleased with them all.)


I agree with you here...but in this way, they are misguided in some concept and sinner.....but not out of Islam....

our discussion is on that: they are out of islam or not???


otherwise they are wrong in their many concepts, we both agree...
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, April 25, 2010  -  1:57 PM Reply with quote
quote:

safimeraCANADA Posted - Saturday, April 24, 2010 - 2:52 PM: ...... yes ! this is wrong but how u would kick them out of islam for this reason????..again they could be sinner but not non-muslim...... this is their belief...what is against islam here???....u can disagree with this but how it is against basic islam???
........it is an exagerated belief...u can disagree....but it is not enough to consider then non-muslim..........but in this way, they are misguided in some concept and sinner.....but not out of Islam..........our discussion is on that: they are out of islam or not???
A Muslim may apostatize from his religion by doing many acts that nullify Islam, which makes it permissible for the Islamic State to shed his blood and seize his wealth, and which will put him beyond the pale of Islam. The following ten acts are mong the most serious and most common of these things:

1–Shirk or associating others in worship with Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“Verily, Allaah forgives not (the sin of) setting up partners (in worship) with Him, but He forgives whom He wills, sins other than that, and whoever sets up partners in worship with Allaah, has indeed strayed far away”

[al-Nisa’ 4:116]
quote:

“Verily, whosoever sets up partners (in worship) with Allaah, then Allaah has forbidden Paradise to him, and the Fire will be his abode”

[al-Maa’idah 5:72]
That includes praying to the dead, seeking their help, making vows and offering sacrifices to them or to the jinn or to the grave.

2–Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3–Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.
4–Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings–is a kaafir.

5–Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“That is because they hate that which Allaah has sent down (this Qur’aan and Islamic laws); so He has made their deeds fruitless”

[Muhammad 47:9]
6–Whoever makes fun of anything in the religion of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), or makes fun of any texts that refer to rewards or punishments, is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“Say: Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger that you were mocking?

Make no excuse; you disbelieved after you had believed”

[al-Tawbah 9:65-66]
7–Sihr (witchcraft) – including spells to turn one person against another or to make someone love another. Whoever does this or approves of it is a kaafir. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“but neither of these two (angels) taught anyone (such things) till they had said, ‘We are for trial, so disbelieve not (by learning this magic from us)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:102]
8–Supporting the mushrikeen and helping them against the Muslims. The evidence for that is the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa'idah 5:51]
9–Whoever believes that some people are allowed to operate outside the law of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) just as al-Khidr operated outside the law of Moosa (peace be upon him) is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:85]
10–Turning away from the religion of Allaah, not learning it and not acting in accordance with it. The evidence for that is the verse (interpretation of the meaning):
quote:

“And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, then turns aside therefrom? Verily, We shall exact retribution from the Mujrimoon (criminals, disbelievers, polytheists, sinners)”

[al-Sajdah 32:22]
With regard to all of these acts that nullify Islam, it makes no difference whether a person is joking, serious or afraid, unless he is forced to do it. All of them are very serious, and they all happen a great deal. The Muslim should beware of them and fear falling into them.

We seek refuge with Allaah from the things that may incur His wrath and painful punishment.

May Allaah send blessings and peace upon the best of His creation, Muhammad, and upon his family and companions.


Edited by: aboosait on Sunday, April 25, 2010 1:58 PM
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Monday, April 26, 2010  -  6:40 AM Reply with quote
Please give me prove that authentic sufi scholars like ghazali, shahwaliullah, qadir jillani etc did these your all ten serious crimes....

if their followers did , so did followers of imam abu hanifa, shafai or ibn hanbal....




quote:

2–Whoever sets up intermediaries between himself and Allaah, asks them to intercede, and puts his trust in them, is a kaafir according to scholarly consensus.

3–Whoever does not regard the mushrikeen as kaafirs, or doubts that they are kaafirs, or regards their way as correct, is a kaafir.
4–Whoever believes that anything other than the teaching of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is more complete than his teachings, or that the rulings of anyone else are better than his rulings – such as those who prefer the rule of false laws to his rulings–is a kaafir.

5–Whoever hates any part of that which the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) brought, even if he acts in accordance with it, is a kaafir, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning
):

these are your interpretation....and u be happy...
but all above needs further explanation and good interpretation.

some of them can consider a muslim, very bad muslim but not kafir...

but now no more discussion with you...
may be u would give fatwa for me also that I am kafir....

because of such harsh attitude of our last 200 centuries scholars ..a common muslim has gone away from their religion ,,,,because they were always blamed as kafir , whenever they tried to argue with the interpretation of quran and sunnah...

no muslim can hate or deny quran and sunnah....but he can argue and deny the interpretation of quran and sunnah and even can make fun of those interpretations which were baseless and by jahil and extremist scholars.

thank u for that harsh lecture for me...

u win ..i will not discuss with you further...

because i think , i would become kafir according to your interpretation.

GOD bless you...
atifrafi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 26, 2010  -  6:57 AM Reply with quote
safimera ===> sorry for being absent for few days... I agree with you, Its only a ONE WAY Traffic with full of FATWAS and Only FATWAS... Most of them are baseless rather just allegations. So, there is no advantage of this discussion.

Aboosait ===> you win and I quit... As you HAVE to win in any case.... I will not answer anything until i'll get replies of my earlier Queries.


May ALLAH Bless us all...


Edited by: atifrafi on Monday, April 26, 2010 7:00 AM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 26, 2010  -  10:09 AM Reply with quote
quote:



Aboosait ===> ......I will not answer anything until i'll get replies of my earlier Queries.....
I thought all your querris were answered. However, as you say some have been left unanswered, kinly shortlist them.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, April 26, 2010  -  10:24 AM Reply with quote
quote:

no muslim can hate or deny quran and sunnah...
Then what do you call a person who hates/denies? a muslim, very bad muslim or a kafir?...
quote:

....can make fun of those interpretations which were baseless .........
Follow the interpretations as understood by the Sahaba and the salaf. Why go after jaahils?

Edited by: aboosait on Monday, April 26, 2010 10:27 AM
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, May 03, 2010  -  6:32 PM Reply with quote
i found something from iqbal's sayings regarding this , but it's in urdu~


زندگي سوز جگر ہے علم ہے سوز دماغ
علم ميں دولت بھي ہے قدرت بھي ہے لذت بھي ہے
ايك مشكل ہے كہ ہاتھ آتا نہيں اپنا سراغ!

اہل دانش عام ہيں كمياب ہيں اہل نظر
كيا تعجب ہے كہ خالي رہ گيا تيرا اياغ

شيخ مكتب كے طريقوں سے كشادہ دل كہاں
كس طرح كبريت سے روشن ہو بجلي كا چراغ
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Monday, May 03, 2010  -  8:35 PM Reply with quote
yes hkhan...well said....

with little change, let me write another great Iqbal's lines:

"perfectionism" ki kasotee pay parakh- tah hai tooh her baat...
ay kaash teree fikr ka paimana badal jaa ay...
teree dooaa hai kay poori ho tayree aarzoo...
mayree dooaa hai kay teree aarzoo badal jaa ay....
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, May 04, 2010  -  12:56 PM Reply with quote
quote:

i found something from iqbal's sayings regarding this , but it's in urdu~


زندگي سوز جگر ہے علم ہے سوز دماغ
علم ميں دولت بھي ہے قدرت بھي ہے لذت بھي ہے
ايك مشكل ہے كہ ہاتھ آتا نہيں اپنا سراغ!

اہل دانش عام ہيں كمياب ہيں اہل نظر
كيا تعجب ہے كہ خالي رہ گيا تيرا اياغ

شيخ مكتب كے طريقوں سے كشادہ دل كہاں
كس طرح كبريت سے روشن ہو بجلي كا چراغ

Can you translate that into English?
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, May 04, 2010  -  7:28 PM Reply with quote
uncle i thought u wud know. anyway; to summarise basically allama iqbal says here that only knowledge of goodness is not enough to und'satnd oneself and deal with others.
ego and arrogance can never be treated with knowledge alone. 'coz arrogance can not enlighten the lamps, and those too the electric ones. let alone the lamps of innate guidance. hence a soft and loving heart along with knowledge is always needed to keep this light on for others to see the path. (am sure the dean of this website can translate it much better~just my 2 pence )
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, May 06, 2010  -  10:06 AM Reply with quote
quote:

uncle i thought u wud know.
I know Urdu but cant understand those poetic philosophies without a tutor like we need a mufassir to explain to us the Qur'an and Hadith though we know Arabic.

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