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aslammir

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 26, 2010  -  3:48 PM Reply with quote
Sufism is a vast subject and needs thorough and probing discussion. Ghamidi sahib and his associates severely criticize sufism but has not yet produced befitting scholarly refutation or research on this subject.They might have planned it. Ghamidi,s stance that sufism is parallel religion is really a very a big "allegation" as Safimera has suggested. But when one sees the deep and pervasive influence of sufism over Muslims,in many respects negative, one cannot but agree with Javed Sahib in some respects. But it is also a fact that sufism has many shades. All these shades cannot be thrown away with the sweeping "parallel religion" statement of Ghamidi sahib Ghamidi sahib also doesn,t mean that all of Sufism should be done away with.

Edited by: aslammir on Friday, March 26, 2010 4:35 PM

Edited by: aslammir on Friday, March 26, 2010 4:39 PM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 26, 2010  -  5:47 PM Reply with quote
quote:

.....were these personalities according to Mr Ghamdi "matawazi deen principle" still in Islam????.......
Allah has not authorised you or me to decide the fate of people who passed away hundreds of years ago. But He Subhanahu wa ta'alaa has declared on two instances that He, (if He wills) will forgive any sin other than the sin of associating partners with Him. Having understood this let us also remind ourselves that these famous personalities from history have no parallel powers or authority in deciding your fate or mine.

The next point is that our deeds will be taken to account, every atom of it. Thus if their good deeds outweigh the wrong things (in case the allegations are true) in terms of their merit, they will be successful but we will be in danger of being pesecuted (unless Allah Mercifully forgives us) for having slandered them.

So better dont worry about them but worry about our fate and do not indulge in shirk or bid'ah and also avoid other sinful activities.


Edited by: aboosait on Friday, March 26, 2010 5:48 PM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, March 26, 2010  -  5:57 PM Reply with quote
quote:

.........But it is also a fact that sufism has many shades. All these shades cannot be thrown away with the sweeping "parallel religion" .....
Why, why? -- Why give any room for Sufism to get into Islam? Do you consider Islam to be an incomplete religion that it needs to be augmented with sufism? Then you are mistaken because Allah made the Prophet to proclaim the Verses of the Qur'an stating the deen is comlete in all repects. This declaration was made in the parting sermon at the time of his last Hajj by the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
aslammir

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, March 27, 2010  -  3:45 AM Reply with quote
All sufis do not subscribe to all of the ideas and practices of sufism. For example, Wahdat-ul-wujood(monism) might be a cardinal creed in some sufi circles but some other circles do not subscribe to it or interpret in a very different way.
We can,t lump all sufis into a single entity. Sufism has also contributed in practical field,esp in grooming and guidance of the masses in day-to-day life which cannot be erased away from the pages of history. Ghamidi sahib himself wants some of its aspects,like Khanqahi system in its true spirit, to be revived.
samra

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, March 27, 2010  -  12:27 PM Reply with quote
I am not sure what you guys are trying to get from this sufism. It is making me sick to my bowels!! Hasn't our ummah suffered enough with other innovations yet that you people wish to introduce or revive Monkism in it? Havn't you seen the fruits of Monkism in other religions yet? This is why I posted that news about the sex scandal amongst the priests previously.
For God's sake let the ummah learn and practice some Islam and come out of this darkness and destruction. Whether it is wahdatul wajood or the other, at the end of the day what do you think Muslims can gain from it?

The only thing which helped me, which you may call a small reflection of Sufism was when once I happened to come across a group of women who sit together, close their eyes after seeing some beautiful pictures of gardens and waterfalls, think of Paradise, think of washing their hearts in a clear water river, then they imagine looking after a little girl as their own childhood, hence reviving their innocence, getting a light from the skies from Allah SWT into their hearts and then spreading that light to everyone around them who they come across as this light now reflects out from their faces and whole bodies. I did not find a harm in this exercise as they started with Allah's name and the conducting lady was teaching about God, Hereafter and looking after yourself and your problems with Allah's Dhikr.

These things are effective here in such a mixed class of people and practices, stress and tensions while away from loved ones in other lands and so on. But I think one has to be very careful even about these not to cross the limits. these practices have perhaps been introduced in by some Muslims in the West in as an alternative to things like "Art of Living" by Ravi Shiri Shankar and others who claim to release all stresses by their meditation exercises and I have seen many Muslims being pulled to such. But I tell my non Muslim friends here that our five times prayers is a full course of peaceful meditation and breaks from stress during busy days and nights besides a source of one's training as a good human being, only if we understand and perform these prayers to full.

So why do we still need Sufism? I fail to understand.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, March 27, 2010  -  2:42 PM Reply with quote
One can be a good muslim following Quran and sunnah and a sufi at the same time.The earlier sufis have only one thing unique which may or may not be objectionable i.e. they used to do 'ghulu'[exaggaration]in 'zahd'[piousness].
you are supposed to fast during Ramadhan month as obligation but if someone in order to kill[or tame]his soul[nafs]by fasting most of the days throughout the year,it may be called exaggaration.It may not bad until this practice is limited to his ownself only.

Sufi's preached Islam in most practical manner.They sometimes may adopt ways which may be called 'unislamic'but not 'anti islamic'.Like if you go to a place of non believers and start preaching in chaste urdu or in your mother toungue,few will take heed to it.But if translate beautiful teachings of Islam into folk language and in the form of local songs,u can reach to many very easily.
More to it they werent just sufis but at the same time serve as 'tabeebs',their hut was a sheleter for all,it could be a school for many and a dining system for all.
The problem occured only when the sufi died in the middle and the remaining among his disciples was nothing but just his grave.People who loved him alive started loving his remains and so the rest story is with us.

If we want to taste a sufi experience;we should try to go somewhere in the dense forests of places like arunachal pradesh,assam or desert like thar.Sit with the people there and think how and why muslims are found here.You'd get the answer.Dont hate them or bash people around you. Just think that they have been educated to Islam to a certain level and now its our duty to bring them more closer to Islam;as per our capacity.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Monday, March 29, 2010  -  2:12 PM Reply with quote
samra, roushan===>

please do not start on what is NOT at the moment the point of discussion....

with aslammir and aboosait....the discussion is about "matawazi deen allegation on some big personalities of islamic history"

otherwise I more than 100% agree with you people and Mr Modoodi and Mr Ghamdi
that "we DO NOT NEED SUFISM AT ALL TO BE GOOD MUSLIM...OR TO PRACTICE OF ISLAM....."

BUT going against sufism, one should not go so far that a big scholar whose whole life WAS according to Quran and sunnah and then IF just he supported
marginally sufism as well...u put allegation that HE was following of "matawazi deen"...

i think MR Ghamdi is wrong in this regard...

God knows better...
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, March 29, 2010  -  2:45 PM Reply with quote
sorry for jumping in the middle .
shehzads

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, March 29, 2010  -  5:17 PM Reply with quote
Well Safimera; Now don't try to impress us with your big WORDS like Mutawazee Deen!LOL
Everyone has expressed themselves about the whole topic in plain words. Personally I don't think there is much benefit in Sufism to Muslims and Islam. Or may be there is a little bit of an advantage of this practice when one has to learn and control their arrogance, egoism and anger? But can't we learn that from Quran and Sunnah and Hadith?
However, if your aim is to prove some person (Mr.Javaid A Ghamidi ) wrong, then that's a different issue.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, March 30, 2010  -  12:20 AM Reply with quote
shezads===> haha...I want to know something about which I have confusion...

if u think , my objection is against forum policy....just tell me ..i will respect it and no more discussion on this controversial version of Mr Ghamdi from my side.

quote:

Safimera; Now don't try to impress us with your big WORDS like Mutawazee Deen!LOL
.

This big word used by Mr Ghamdi.not me. And He did one whole program in GEO tv once.

I do not know how u got this impression that I want to impress??
this word used by Mr Ghamdi, not ME.

quote:

Everyone has expressed themselves about the whole topic in plain words. Personally I don't think there is much benefit in Sufism to Muslims and Islam. Or may be there is a little bit of an advantage of this practice when one has to learn and control their arrogance, egoism and anger? But can't we learn that from Quran and Sunnah and Hadith?


my dear Mr Shezads sahib....I never said that whatever u and other my friends said is even 1% wrong....THEY ALL 100% RIGHT....please see my earlier comments ..I always said that I 100% agreed WITH THIS VERSION that to be a good muslim u do not need sufism and I agreed with Mr Ghamdi in this regard fully....

my question WAS regarding "matawazi deen allegation" and I needed clarification...but as I said earlier, if u think I should not raise this issue in this forum, i will not in future...

but please and please do not give me further points against sufism...I am already against sufism....my point is about "matawazi deen allegation" ,,which is used by Mr Ghamdi ..not me.

quote:

However, if your aim is to prove some person (Mr.Javaid A Ghamidi ) wrong, then that's a different issue
.

Mr Ghamdi is my favourate scholar..infact I believe he is best scholar of present time....he impressed me too much that u cannot imagine....how tactfully he presented different solutions of muslim ummah within quran and sunnah....i think he is genius...

but this is according to Mr Ghamdi's rule that anybody could make mistake...so yes in my opinion....to say about big past islamic scholars that they were following "matawaz deen"...is not wise step in bringing muslim ummah united or close to each other....in this way we can lose many good and sincere muslim away from us...

GOD knows better...
aslammir

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, March 30, 2010  -  12:01 PM Reply with quote
quote:

to say about big past islamic scholars that they were following "matawaz deen"...is not wise step in bringing muslim ummah united or close to each other....in this way we can lose many good and sincere muslim away .
To say that " Sufism is a mutawazi mazhab(parallel religion)" is one thing and to say that "big past Islamic scholars were following a mutawazi religion" is a different thing.Ghamidi sahib has been saying the first thing but he has not said the other thing.As far as the question of questioning Ghamidi,s opinions is concerned,he has himself preaching this thing all his life.He is extremely respectful to his teachers and mentors Amin Ahsan Islahi and Mawdudi but he has differed with them on
numerous issues.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, March 30, 2010  -  1:12 PM Reply with quote
quote:

To say that " Sufism is a mutawazi mazhab(parallel religion)" is one thing and to say that "big past Islamic scholars were following a mutawazi religion" is a different thing.Ghamidi sahib has been saying the first thing but he has not said the other thing


aslammir==> u r right...but Mr Ghamdi gave example of such personalities( Ghazali, ShahwaliAllah, Ahmed sarhandi, Ismail shaheed etc)....
so what does it mean?????
please tell me????

for example: If I am explaining what is "democracy" and then I gave example of India, USA or france....
what does it mean??..it means that India, USA and France are practicing democracy!!!!!

when u gave example of any specific PHENOMENA....the meaning is always that those EXAMPLEs are following the same PHENOMENA....

I DO NOT KNOW WHAT WAS mR GHAMDI'S INTENTION....but from that lecture, it was clear that according to Mr Ghamdi those personalities were practicing , little or more, sufism and so-called "matawazi deen"....

let me make my question more easier to answer :
if somebody is following a "matawzi deen".... could he remain muslim or in Islam club????
or he is out of islam???

God knows better.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, March 31, 2010  -  4:33 PM Reply with quote
quote:

We can,t lump all sufis into a single entity.
We are not bothered who practices which part of an "ism" That which is not prescribed in Islam cannot be called a part of Islam.
quote:

Ghamidi sahib himself wants some of its aspects,like Khanqahi system in its true spirit, to be revived.
Proof please.

I would oppose that because it was a practice of the earlier Ummah upto the time that the Qur'an was revealed for the present mmah. For example even our Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam secluded himself in a cave until the Qur'an was revealed, but never did he or any of his companions practice such chillah after that.
shehzads

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, March 31, 2010  -  4:51 PM Reply with quote
Hmm safimeera. Big words suit ok a researcher like Mr.Ghamdi, not everyone... LOL again!
I don't think Mr.Jawed Ghamdi's or anyone's opinion will harm the ones who want to practice true Islam. In this way nobody should be allowed to express their ideas or results of their research you mean? It is the job of the readers to read and decide. The researchers do not impose their results on people, they just present them.The seekers get to the true Islam finally and somehow with Allah's SWT help.
It is good that you are coming up with For and Against points about something. Have you written to him? From this website it looks like we can write to him directly at their address.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Friday, April 02, 2010  -  2:08 AM Reply with quote
thank u shehzads for explaining me nicely....

Mr Ghamdi is very busy personality I suppose, so I used this forum to get clarification from his team members....

Now I will try to ask him directly InshAllah...

Yes! I have confusion about his "matawazi deen" term....

otherwise I believe Mr Ghamdi version against sufism is very much valid and correct....and sufism should be discourged....

but as u said, every reader has right to decide....so my conclusion still is that... "matawazi deen" allegation is very harsh and in this way we cannot bring the people who practice sufism back....

I think we have to convince and convey message with good technique and wisdom....this is also advice of Allah that we should convey message with good technique and wisdom...

Anyway thanks for your advice....

now no more comments from my side....

God knows better....
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, April 04, 2010  -  4:39 AM Reply with quote
quote:

1. ...... It is the job of the readers to read and decide.....

2. .....The seekers get to the true Islam finally and somehow with Allah's SWT help......

(points numbered by me for convenience in answering)

So?

Dont the readers have the right to express each other's opinion and discuss the issue before arriving at a conclusion?

Isnt that one of the objectives of these forums?

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