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aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, January 05, 2007  -  2:46 AM Reply with quote
Text
quote:

1.prophet Mohd married a 6 yr old girl
Was able to have sex with over dozen women in a night
Gorged the eyes of some men who killed his camel.

2.An-Nahl [16:98]فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ

I am sure that makes sense to you. Because it makes none to me.

3.Allah tells us that he has given us sight, hearing and intelligence and dont accept anything you cannot varify yourself.


(I have numbered the quotes for convenience.)

You believe that:

3.Allah tells us that he has given us sight, hearing and intelligence and dont accept anything you cannot varify yourself.


Then how is it that you blindly believe these statements to be 'hadith'?

1.prophet Mohd married a 6 yr old girl
Was able to have sex with over dozen women in a night
Gorged the eyes of some men who killed his camel.


According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah that Asma (ra) died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old.

Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah.

If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time.

Thus, Ayesha (ra), if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

• Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah -- the pre Islamic period.

Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH -- the time she most likely got married.

• According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam.

While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not have been born during the first year of Islam.[/
size=1]

What became of the sight, hearing and intelligence given to you by Allah

You believe in some portion of the revelation and reject the other??


2.An-Nahl [16:98]فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
I am sure that makes sense to you. Because it makes none to me
.


Al-Baqara [2:85]
ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَـؤُلاء تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقاً مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَارِهِمْ تَظَاهَرُونَ عَلَيْهِم بِالإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَإِن يَأتُوكُمْ أُسَارَى تُفَادُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ

Thumma antum haolai taqtuloona anfusakum watukhrijoona fareeqan minkum min diyarihim tathaharoona AAalayhim bialithmi waalAAudwani wain yatookum osara tufadoohum wahuwa muharramun AAalaykum ikhrajuhum afatuminoona bibaAAdi alkitabi watakfuroona bibaAAdin fama jazao man yafAAalu thalika minkum illa khizyun fee alhayati alddunya wayawma alqiyamati yuraddoona ila ashaddi alAAathabi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona

2:85 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, January 05, 2007  -  10:13 AM Reply with quote
Walaykum Salam Perv1

Quote:-This quote below completely demonstrates you lack of knowldge and thinking process.

Ok now we see how good your knowledge and thinking process is and how you are interpating the verses of Quran bellow. These verses were quoted by brother aboosait.I am here presenting two of them.

quote:
These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)

Yours comments:-Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran.

Now tell me in the light of the above suras why do you still continue to believe in speeches outside the Quran or do you not believe what the Quran is telling you/

My response:- Brother were you in yours senses when you have wrote this?.Don’t get angry but please try to realize that how wrongly you are interpreting the above verse(45:6).See how I am interpreting these verse below. Please compare this with yours one and look at the verse again and then please give yours comments on them.I hope this way we will understand the Quran more better.

My Interpretation:- Brother if you will see this verce in the context then Allah here saying this to nonbelievers that is, "When these people have not believed even after Allah's own arguments have been presented for His Existence and His Unity(as mentioned in the previous verses), what else can be there by which they will gain the faith ?

It is not saying at all that don’t believe in any thing elsc than Quran neither there is any sense to say that don’t believe any thing else than Quran to those people whom not yet have faith brother.Here the are arguments presented to non-believers so they might have faith.

quote:

Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111)

Yours comments:-Yes of course- Torah & Injeel mentioned by name...where are Bukhari et al mentioned above.

My response:-I hope you have red the Torah & Injeel,if you have red than you surely knows that there are very few verces there which are the words of Allah.Most of old testament and new testament is full of sayings of prophet Moses and specially Prophet Jesus(peace be upon them).But here in this verse above still Allah confirm them as His Scriptures.This is some thing especial for Quran that it is 100% are the words of Allah.But it not means that words of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have not important for us.That is the reason Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) is called second source of Islamic laws.

Quote:-Just for your information...I teach/supervise many postgraduates and undergraduates...the point I always emphasise do not accept anything blindly and never be afraid to question anything you disagree with.

Reply:-I do respect brother for what you are doing there,I acknowledge it and have respect for you on that. Infect Our religion is badly needed the people like you to make the ummah strong in every ways.I hope with this abilities you will servicing the religion in some way and not the other way around.

Quote:-As for the Shaitan do you think he is likely to mislead someone who uses his intelligence (as mentioned by the Quran) or someone who will follow blindly some one he considers to be scholar.

Reply:-Brother we need to be very careful with this guy (Shitan),the people who have more intelligent in this world are not even have faith.I am sure that this shaitan has a very big role on that.

May Allah save us from him.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, January 05, 2007  -  11:38 AM Reply with quote
Salaam aboosait

My friend i find you writing extremely difficult to read, so perhaps i might have evn misunderstood the points you are trying to make.
Any chance of using a bigger font so it is easy to read.

I am not sure if we are not talking cross purposes here.
Of course I dont believe these stupid stories of Ayesha being 6 and the prophet havein sex with numerous wives duting one noght or cutting peoples hands or gorging their eyes out.
THE WHOLE PURPOSE MY POST WAS THAT THESE STORIES ARE MENTIONED IN THE HADITH...THEREFORE HOW CAN YOU TRUST THESE HADITH.
I hope you understand the point I am trying to make.

I suggest you read our discussion again so that you are clear on my position.

Salaam Usmani

quote:

These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)


quote:

Yours comments:-Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran.

quote:

Now tell me in the light of the above suras why do you still continue to believe in speeches outside the Quran or do you not believe what the Quran is telling you/

quote:

My response:- Brother were you in yours senses when you have wrote this?.Don’t get angry but please try to realize that how wrongly you are interpreting the above verse(45:6).See how I am interpreting these verse below. Please compare this with yours one and look at the verse again and then please give yours comments on them.I hope this way we will understand the Quran more better.

quote:

My Interpretation:- Brother if you will see this verce in the context then Allah here saying this to nonbelievers that is, "When these people have not believed even after Allah's own arguments have been presented for His Existence and His Unity(as mentioned in the previous verses), what else can be there by which they will gain the faith ?

quote:

It is not saying at all that don’t believe in any thing elsc than Quran neither there is any sense to say that don’t believe any thing else than Quran to those people whom not yet have faith brother.Here the are arguments presented to non-believers so they might have faith.


One clarification before I continue...I am not angry with you or anyone else.
I think it might just my hurried writing (accept my apologies for that)

Any how back to the bove sura

you wrote:

quote:

My Interpretation:- Brother if you will see this verce in the context then Allah here saying this to nonbelievers that is, "When these people have not believed even after Allah's own arguments have been presented for His Existence and His Unity(as mentioned in the previous verses), what else can be there by which they will gain the faith


Whether Alaah is talking to believers or non believers is a irrelvent read the Quote again IT STATES WHAT SPEECH (RECITAL, HADITH ETC) AFTER ALLAH'S AYAT WILL THEY BELIEVE.

Whether Allah is talking to believers or non believers is very clear that Allah does not want any one to believe accept anything outside the Quran...WHY DO YOU HAVE PROBLEMS WITH WHAT ALLAH IS SAYING...IT DOES NOT REQUIRE YOURS, MINE OR ANYONE ELSES INTERPERTATION..JUST ACCEPT WHAT ALLAH IS SAYING
OR
DO YOU BELIEVE THAT HADITH ARE PART OF ALLAH AYATS LIKE THE QURAN..OTHERWISE THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION IN BELIEVING THEM AS PART OF ISLAM. UNLESS YOU THINK ALLAH IS CONFUSED AND DOES NOT UNDERSTAND HIS OWN WORDS.



quote:

Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111)



quote:

Yours comments:-Yes of course- Torah & Injeel mentioned by name...where are Bukhari et al mentioned above.


quote:

My response:-I hope you have red the Torah & Injeel,if you have red than you surely knows that there are very few verces there which are the words of Allah.Most of old testament and new testament is full of sayings of prophet Moses and specially Prophet Jesus(peace be upon them).


I hope you fully understand the above sura....Tora & Injeel Allahs books but yes they have been corrupted. Unlike the Quran Allah did not say he would preserve the above as original. Unfortunately Humans wanted to add or invent issue hence corrupted these books.
that is why God sent a reaffirmation of the previous scriptures in the shape of Quran otherwise there would have been no need. The difference this time is that Allah has promised to perserve the Quran
You are doing what the Christians and Jews did by corrupting the religion of Islam by your man (or even possibly Shaitan) made hadith.

quote:

But here in this verse above still Allah confirm them as His Scriptures

Yes Torah and Injeel - not collecton by Bukhari and co 300 yrs after the completion of the Quran.

quote:

This is some thing especial for Quran that it is 100% are the words of Allah

correct

quote:

But it not means that words of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have not important for us

I suggest you read the Quran...Mohd is clearly told that his ONLY DUTY is convey the Quran....Or do you not believe the Quran again.
Historically speaking the prophets words would be important but even on this issues one cannot trust hadith as there are too many contradictions(= lies). Would you like me produce couple of pages of ridiculous and contradictory sayings of hadith.

quote:

That is the reason Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) is called second source of Islamic laws.


There is only one God and only source of his law....THE QURAN..PLEASE STOP TRYING TO CORRUPT IT WITH YOUR MAN MADE STATEMENTS.
REGARDS
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  5:26 AM Reply with quote
Assalam Alikum Prev1

Brother this is the best way to interparate the Quran to understand it with the context.You are the first one I ever came across who do not want to follow this method what I remember.Any way let just look at what Allah says in this verse.

These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)

Yours comments:-Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran.

My comments:-If Allah says in this verse(Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe?) then how its means become what you have said above?you are wrong sir just ask any one else and find out.

Take an example here that there a organization where Person ‘A ‘ is the chief executive.There is also a person ‘B’ who is holding a second position after person ‘A’.There are many workers used to work there as well.We called all of them person ‘C’ here.Now person ‘A” finds that the workers ‘C’ are not following his direct orders.He gets angered on them and says to them if you are not following my orders than whose orders will you follow?.

Now if he person ‘A’ is not around there and person ‘B’ ask them person ‘C’to do some thing and in reply they says no we are not going to follow yours order because person ‘A’ told us that (if you are not following my orders than whose orders will you follow).So we are not suppose to follow yours orders.

The workers 'C’also knows that the person ‘A’ has told them previously that whoever will follow the orders of person ‘B” means they are following my orders.

Here I just ask you one thing that, are person ‘C’ correctly interpreting the words of person ‘A’? or not? And when ever they person ‘C’ will again meet the person ‘A’ will he person ‘A’ will be happy for what they did not follow the orders of person ‘B’? or not?.Have a look on the following verses of Quran as well.


And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

Say: Obey Allâh and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allâh loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

And obey Allâh and the Messenger so that you may be blessed. (3:132)

So fear Allâh and set things right between you, and obey Allâh and His Messenger if you are believers. (8:1)

O those who believe, obey Allâh and His Messenger and do not turn away from him, while you are listening. (8:20)

Say: Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger; then, if you turn away, upon him rests what is laid on him, and upon you rests what is laid on you. If you obey him, you will be guided. (24:54)

So establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey Allâh and His Messenger. (58:13)

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He shall admit him to Fire where he shall remain forever. (4:14)

And whoever makes a breach with Allâh and His Messenger, then Allâh is severe in punishment. (8:13)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)

And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

Regards
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  6:15 AM Reply with quote
quote:

perv1UNITED KINGDOM Posted - Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:38 AM

Salaam aboosait

I dont believe these stupid stories of Ayesha being 6 and the prophet havein sex with numerous wives duting one noght or cutting peoples hands or gorging their eyes out.

THE WHOLE PURPOSE MY POST WAS THAT THESE STORIES ARE MENTIONED IN THE HADITH...THEREFORE HOW CAN YOU TRUST THESE HADITH.
[/
quote]

Wa alaikum assalam.w.r.w.b

When you are sure that some stories are baseless, why do you give publicity to them rather than propagate the Truth?

Many contemporary Muslims who have not been trained in the sciences of hadith regard the collections of Bukhari and Muslim as particularly reliable, and tend to accept them as sure and certain.

Trained Islamic scholars are much more likely to adopt a critical stance towards even the sahih collections, and caution that hadith have to be weighed and evaluated, not accepted as true without further consideration.

Hence the MSA* collection of hadith, warns:


“Today, the situation is different. The collections of ahadeeth have for the most part stabilized, and with the advent of the printing press, the collections are easily mass-produced. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of ahadeeth. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam.


*(The Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada is also known as MSA National. It is an umbrella organization for all of the chapters at various campuses across the continent)

You are adviced to learn the science of hadeeth before making a fool of yourself in public forums.

(The Science of hadith is the process that Muslim scholars use to evaluate hadith.)
The classification of Hadith into Sahih (sound), Hasan (good) and Da'if (weak) was firmly established by Ali ibn al-Madini (d. 234 AH).

Later, al-Madini's student Muhammad al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH.) authored a collection that he stated contained only Sahih hadith.

al-Tirmidhi (d. 279 AH) was the first traditionist to base his book on al-Madini's classification .

Ilm ar-Rijal

Ilm ar-Rijal is the "science of biography".

The earliest remarks cited in the books of Rijal go back to a host of Successors, followed by those after them until the period of the Six major Hadith collections, a period covering the first to the third centuries AH .
Comments about individual narators can include :

• "Imam (leader), Hafiz (preserver)."

• "Reliable, trustworthy."

• "Makes mistakes."

• "Weak."

• "Abandoned (by the traditionists)."

• "Liar, used to fabricate ahadith."

This resulted in individual verdicts on each of the Narrators of hadith.

Dump merge

The commonest technique consists of a careful examination of the isnad, or chain of transmission.

Each hadith is accompanied by an isnad: A heard it from B who heard it from C who heard it from a companion of Muhammad.

Isnads are carefully scrutinized to see if the chain is possible (for example, making sure that all transmitters and transmittees were known to be alive and living in the same area at the time of transmission) and if the transmitters are reliable.

The scholars reject as unreliable people reported to have lied (at any point), as well as people reputed to be stupid (and thus likely to misunderstand the saying).

Early Sufis, or Muslim mystics and ascetics, are also distrusted by the legal scholars. Imam Malik comments dismissively on "an ascetic who doesn't know what he is narrating". [citation needed]

Sunni scholars regard affiliation to some extreme Shia and Qadariya sects as sometimes reducing a narrator's reliability, due to these sects' alleged propensity for fabricating hadith; Kharijites are seen as less likely to fabricate. However, they generally accept these narrators too as long as they were not engaged in actively spreading their views.

Shi'a scholars, conversely, doubt the impartiality of the Sunni scholars, and privilege narrators known to have followed Ali and his descendants.

Patricia Crone a skeptic of established Islamic history has stated

"One of the biggest problems with the method of authentication by isnads is early traditionists were still developing the conventions of the isnad.

"They either gave no isnads, or gave isnads that were sketchy or deficient by later standards. Scholars who adhered strictly to the latest standards might find themselves rejecting or deprecating what was in fact the very earliest historical material, while accepting later, fabricated traditions that clothed themselves with impeccable isnads".

(Roman, provincial and Islamic Law, Patricia Crone, pp. 23-34 of the paperback edition)

Hadith that were not thrown out as clearly spurious (maudu') were usually sorted into three categories:

• "genuine" (sahih, the best category)

• "fair" (hasan, the middle category)

• "weak" (da'if)

Some of the sahih hadith were further distinguished as mutawatir, or agreed upon. The sayings or events reported in these hadith were attested by so many witnesses, though different isnads, that it was thought inconceivable that these hadith could be forgeries.

For more clarification here's a modern scholar view; Sheikh Ahmad Kutty is a Senior Lecturer and an Islamic Scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
The fundamental Islamic sources such as the Qur'an and the core traditions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) have been fully preserved intact. This can be demonstrated easily by referring to the sound historical methodologies in verifying the sources.
There is a basic distinction between Islam and other religions in this regard:

Islam is singularly unique among the world religions in the fact that in order to preserve the sources of their religion, the Muslims invented a scientific methodology based on precise rules for gathering data and verifying them.

As it has been said, "Isnad or documentation is part of Islamic religion, and if it had not been for isnad, everybody would have said whatever he wanted."

So, there is no comparison between the sources of Islam and those of other religions in this respect, as you will never find anything comparable to the many sciences Muslims invented for this noble task of preserving the sources of Islam. By virtue of such sciences, you can scrutinize and verify every report in the sources.

Thanks to these efforts, the Qur'an as well as the core tradition on which the Islamic faith and practices are based, have been fully protected.

In this context, it should be added that the process of recording Hadith started as early as the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Actually, many Companions recorded hadiths, and, `Abdullah ibn `Amr, for example, was permitted and even encouraged by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to write down Hadith.

In addition, some 50 Companions and many Successors are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.

For more elaboration, you can read about the stages of recording Hadith.

References
http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/tirmidhi04.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  6:30 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salaam aboosait

My friend i find you writing extremely difficult to read, so perhaps i might have evn misunderstood the points you are trying to make.
Any chance of using a bigger font so it is easy to read
.





Wa alaikum assalam w.r.w.b.....

on your menu bar click 'view'...point on 'text size'...click on the size required from the list that pops up.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  12:53 PM Reply with quote
Salaam aboosait

What is your point?

quote:

Trained Islamic scholars are much more likely to adopt a critical stance towards even the sahih collections, and caution that hadith have to be weighed and evaluated, not accepted as true without further consideration.


I still dont think you have understood a very simple point I have made.
My point was simply that these stories are GARBAGE and if any literature has this garbage then it cannot be accepted as divine or even anything to do with Islam. Any religious literature or beliefs have to be judged in their entirety not to pick and choose what you consider to be acceptable.




quote:

Today, the situation is different. The collections of ahadeeth have for the most part stabilized, and with the advent of the printing press, the collections are easily mass-produced. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of ahadeeth. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam.”


Your point is what?
Who is talking about becoming a scholar. WE are discussing whether hadith have any bases to be considerd as part of Islam.
If you want to discuss how to become a sholar in hadith or whatever start a new thread.

quote:

*(The Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada is also known as MSA National. It is an umbrella organization for all of the chapters at various campuses across the continent)


??????????

quote:

You are adviced to learn the science of hadeeth before making a fool of yourself in public forums.


You obviousouly have not so far!

Let us see. You believe that hadith are divine and then you accept that some of them are pure trash. However some of your so called scholars also find these hadith unpalatabel i.e they are complete lies. So learning or not learning (you have no idea what any one has learned or not learned) the science of hadith is going to change this fact...exactly how?

PS...You still have not commnented on how your Quranic reference support the validity of hadith. But then you appear to have a problem sticking to any particular point...I suppose that is how one does not make a fool of oneself.

regards
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  1:27 PM Reply with quote
I enclose a reply from understanding islam web site on the age of Hazrat Aiasha' age at the time of marrige. As this has been raised in this discussion


Title:
What was Ayesha's (ra) Age at the Time of Her Marriage to the Prophet (pbuh)?

Question:

What was Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage?

It is normally believed that she was nine years old at the time of her marriage with Mohammad (sws) was consummated. I do think it was according to the traditions of the Arab culture, as otherwise people would have objected to this marriage. But unfortunately, the modern day man is not satisfied with an answer as simple as that.



Answer:

To begin with[1], I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.

In my opinion, the age of Ayesha (ra) has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening. Let us look at the issue from an objective stand point. My reservations in accepting the narratives, on the basis of which, Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage with the Prophet (pbuh) is held to be nine years are:

Most of these narratives are reported only by Hisham ibn `urwah reporting on the authority of his father. An event as well known as the one being reported, should logically have been reported by more people than just one, two or three.

It is quite strange that no one from Medinah, where Hisham ibn `urwah lived the first seventy-one years of his life has narrated the event, even though in Medinah his pupils included people as well known as Malik ibn Anas. All the narratives of this event have been reported by narrators from Iraq, where Hisham is reported to have shifted after living in Medinah for seventy-one years.

Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb, one of the most well known books on the life and reliability of the narrators of the traditions ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) reports that according to Yaqub ibn Shaibah: "narratives reported by Hisham are reliable except those that are reported through the people of Iraq". It further states that Malik ibn Anas objected on those narratives of Hisham, which were reported through people of Iraq (Vol. 11, pg. 48 - 51).

Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal, another book on the narrators of the traditions of the Prophet (pbuh) reports that when he was old, Hisham's memory suffered quite badly (Vol. 4, pg. 301 - 302).

According to the generally accepted tradition, Ayesha (ra) was born about eight years before Hijrah. However, according to another narrative in Bukhari (Kitaab al-Tafseer) Ayesha (ra) is reported to have said that at the time Surah Al-Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Qur'an , was revealed, "I was a young girl". The 54th Surah of the Qur'an was revealed nine years before Hijrah. According to this tradition, Ayesha (ra) had not only been born before the revelation of the referred Surah, but was actually a young girl (jariyah), not even only an infant (sibyah) at that time. Obviously, if this narrative is held to be true, it is in clear contradiction with the narratives reported by Hisham ibn `urwah. I see absolutely no reason that after the comments of the experts on the narratives of Hisham ibn `urwah, why should we not accept this narrative to be more accurate.

According to a number of narratives, Ayesha (ra) accompanied the Muslims in the battle of Badr and Uhud. Furthermore, it is also reported in books of hadith and history that no one under the age of 15 years was allowed to take part in the battle of Uhud. All the boys below 15 years of age were sent back. Ayesha's (ra) participation in the battle of Badr and Uhud clearly indicates that she was not nine or ten years old at that time. After all, women used to accompany men to the battlefields to help them, not to be a burden upon them.

According to almost all the historians Asma (ra), the elder sister of Ayesha (ra) was ten years older than Ayesha (ra). It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma (ra) died in the 73rd year after hijrah[2] when she was 100 years old. Now, obviously if Asma (ra) was 100 years old in the 73rd year after hijrah, she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma (ra) was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, Ayesha (ra) should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Ayesha (ra) - if she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH - was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage.

Tabari in his treatise on Islamic history, while mentioning Abu Bakr (ra) reports that Abu Bakr had four children and all four were born during the Jahiliyyah - the pre Islamic period. Obviously, if Ayesha (ra) was born in the period of jahiliyyah, she could not have been less than 14 years in 1 AH - the time she most likely got married.

According to Ibn Hisham, the historian, Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam quite some time before Umar ibn Khattab (ra). This shows that Ayesha (ra) accepted Islam during the first year of Islam. While, if the narrative of Ayesha's (ra) marriage at seven years of age is held to be true, Ayesha (ra) should not even have been born during the first year of Islam.

Tabari has also reported that at the time Abu Bakr (ra) planned on migrating to Habshah (8 years before Hijrah), he went to Mut`am - with whose son Ayesha (ra) was engaged at that time - and asked him to take Ayesha (ra) in his house as his son's wife. Mut`am refused, because Abu Bakr had embraced Islam. Subsequently, his son divorced Ayesha (ra). Now, if Ayesha (ra) was only seven years old at the time of her marriage, she could not have been born at the time Abu Bakr decided on migrating to Habshah. On the basis of this report it seems only reasonable to assume that Ayesha (ra) had not only been born 8 years before hijrah, but was also a young lady, quite prepared for marriage.

According to a narrative reported by Ahmad ibn Hanbal, after the death of Khadijah (ra), when Khaulah (ra) came to the Prophet (pbuh) advising him to marry again, the Prophet (pbuh) asked her regarding the choices she had in her mind. Khaulah said: "You can marry a virgin (bikr) or a woman who has already been married (thayyib)". When the Prophet (pbuh) asked about who the virgin was, Khaulah proposed Ayesha's (ra) name. All those who know the Arabic language, are aware that the word "bikr" in the Arabic language is not used for an immature nine-year old girl. The correct word for a young playful girl, as stated earlier is "Jariyah". "Bikr" on the other hand, is used for an unmarried lady, and obviously a nine year old is not a "lady".

According to Ibn Hajar, Fatimah (ra) was five years older than Ayesha (ra). Fatimah (ra) is reported to have been born when the Prophet (pbuh) was 35 years old. Thus, even if this information is taken to be correct, Ayesha (ra) could by no means be less than 14 years old at the time of hijrah, and 15 or 16 years old at the time of her marriage.

These are some of the major points that go against accepting the commonly known narrative regarding Ayesha's (ra) age at the time of her marriage.

In my opinion, neither was it an Arab tradition to give away girls in marriage at an age as young as nine or ten years, nor did the Prophet (pbuh) marry Ayesha (ra) at such a young age. The people of Arabia did not object to this marriage, because it never happened in the manner it has been narrated.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  1:28 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Nida_e_Khair Posted - Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:58 PM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum.
Thankyou brother aboosait for your effort. But you know what?....

Wa Alaikum assalam w.r.w.b....
You have judged him right. For everything he says 'murgi ki ek tang'
...anyway it is like 'bail ke age khutba padhna'
Wa s salam.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  1:49 PM Reply with quote
perv1
salam,

1.why quran says about itself that it is in arabic language?

It is repeated at least 12 times.why its so important.
dont you feel its unique.
Can you plz shed some lights on it?

2.do we need any support to learn and understand Quran.
if yes,then tell us some of them.

concise answers will be highly appreciated.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  3:08 PM Reply with quote
salaam raushan

quote:

1.why quran says about itself that it is in arabic language?

It is repeated at least 12 times.why its so important.
dont you feel its unique.

Yes it is unique. Have i stated otherwise?
quote:

Can you plz shed some lights on it?


Shed light on what Uniqueness or Arabic.

quote:

2.do we need any support to learn and understand Quran.

YES

if yes,then tell us some of them.

Here goes, excuse if i skip many steps, i am sure you will understand the reason:

At one stage, I could not wipe my own bottom, feed myself or move even few inches....I needed support. Now with Gods help i can perform these tasks independently.
Still need support in other aspects of life but that is a complex issue.

Could not read or write a single word....needed support.
Could then read and write (certain languages only) but could only understand only very basics....needed support.
Now can read/write understand, english at least, reasonably well (perhaps not as well as you) to get by but still at times need support (if you wish i will be able to give you examples)
No command of Arabic of any kind so need the support of those who translate (If your point is I dont speak or understand Arabic..readily conceded).
In my understanding the word support has huge quonatations and infinite variations.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to make your question concise enough so I can try to answer your point.

concise answers will be highly appreciated.
I have tried my best (sorry if it is not concise enough).
regards
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  3:26 PM Reply with quote
Brother aboosait, that's my whole point! Stop arguing with this guy because you're heading nowhere. Pretty soon we'll be roaming in circles. A sincere piece of advice: Stop discussing things with him as I've stopped. (And it also seems that he's growing irritable.)
And this advice is for all the members of the forum.
Wassalaam.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  3:29 PM Reply with quote
Salaam aboosait

quote:

Wa Alaikum assalam w.r.w.b....
You have judged him right. For everything he says 'murgi ki ek tang'
...anyway it is like 'bail ke age khutba padhna'
Wa s salam.


My friend if you wished to discuss the topic with only those who agree with you. Then you should have stated at the beginning, for it would have saved us all a lot of time.
I addressed every one of your points (or at least majority of them)
You in turn wer not prepared to stick to any one point...whether you lacked the ability, knowldge or simply could not be bothered only you know.
If you cannot handle people disagreeing with you...then simply dont discuss.
Take care
regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, January 06, 2007  -  4:03 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Usmani

I dont think you & I are going to achieve very much as the discussion is going round in circles.
The topics you have raised have been covered numerous times. So I am not sure much will be achieved by revisiting them.
I am surprised you think i am the only one with views on hadith opposed to yours. Have you not been active on Quran & Sunna topic and there many who do not believe in hadith.

Anyway I dont think anything I say is likely to have any relevance to you. As you are fond of scholars.
So below is a site if you really want to see that there are others than the scholars you know.
If you want to know more. I would be happy to oblige.

http://www.ourbeacon.com/DUAL.pdf

Take care. I think you are a good person and I think our debates are not doing you or I any good.
My regards & Prayers
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  1:23 AM Reply with quote
Its nice to see that a peaceful discussion can carry on among our dear participants on these forums---mash'Allah(nazar na lag jaey/evil eye away )--and is great to realize that everyone has so much to offer in knowledge and understanding

Just to remind of something which we discussed earlier in another thread on course forums"Intro to Hadith" that we need to keep the hadith in its right position.

People who took it as A SOURCE OF RELIGION i.e. trying to find rulings or laws from hadith, transgressed- because the basic source of religion is comprised of the Qura'n and the practices of the prophet Muhammad sws for which himself and his companions made serious and painstaking efforts to protect and continue those into the generations--nonetheless as they did to protect and continue the words of Qura'n itself; these were the practices of Ibrahim aleh salam and Muhammad sws cleansed them from the impurities which had creeped into them over the time period, and added to them from the Qura'n which was missing.

The people who ignored the Hadith(sayings of Muhammad sws) completely whilst UNDERSTANDING the religion, i.e. ethical and moral codes, day to day manners and dealings, manners of eating, dressing up, manners of talking, cleanliness, details about the life of the prophet sws, etc, they transgressed as well whilst ignoring it completely.

Facts found in the hadith are like jewels. These jewels have the SPIRIT of the deen
and the best practice of the prophet sws i.e. uswa e hasanah-all this supporting the deen which has already been completed in the Qura'n and the prophet's sunnah.

If a person has a vision, he/she can gain something from the hadith, which is not available anywhere else- but again with the reminder that we ought not to derive the Islamic shariah/laws from hadith-because the shariah is derived from the Book(Qura'n)
Hence the deen would be complete even without the books of ahadith.

(dear abbosait is it possible to use the normal font size plz or you wish to test our eyesight 'n age
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  11:38 AM Reply with quote
I totally agree with sister Henna's view. Ahaadeeth are important, but they're not a source of Islamic law.

By the way, sis Henna, aboosait did tell us something about the text size:
Just point to "View" in your menu bar, go to "Text Size" and choose "larger" or "largest". That's what I did. And now I can clearly read his writing (even though I had no problem with it previously).

Wassalaam, and Allah knows best.

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