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aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Friday, December 01, 2006  -  2:35 AM Reply with quote
quote:

marwan IRELAND: '............. The hadith are the judgements of men'


Before I refute your statement let us be reminded of what Allah The Most High says in Al-Baqara [2:85][/blue]

أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ

………………………..Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.[/i] Al-Baqara [2:85]

The Qur'an is the message, while the Hadith is the verbal translation of the message into pragmatic terms, as exemplified by the Prophet.

While the Qur'an is the metaphysical basis of the Sunnah, the Sunnah is the practical demonstration of the precepts laid down in the Qur'an.

The duty of the Messenger was not just to communicate the message, rather, he was entrusted with the most important task of explaining and illustrating that message.

That is the reason why Allah Himself has commanded the following:


[b[i]]“Say: Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, but if you turn away, he (the Prophet) is only responsible for the duty placed on him (i.e. to convey Allah's Message) and you for that placed on you. If you obey him, you shall be on the right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to convey (the message) in a clear way.” (An-Nur 24:54)

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah. " Al-Ahzab33:21


In the Qur'an, Allah Almighty commands us not only to obey the Messenger, but also to abide by his decisions as follows:[/b]

[b]“But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make you (the Prophet) judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against your decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." (An-Nisaa' 4:65)[/i]


And surely we find such decisions only in the Hadith; the duty of Muslims is to accept the Prophet's decisions whole-heartedly. The Qur'an also orders the faithful to emulate the role model of the Messenger and reckons it to be the only way to gain the pleasure of Allah.

It is therefore obligatory that we look up to the Prophet's morals and exemplary character and carry them out in our lives.

We can never do so without studying Hadith.

It is most illuminating in this respect to learn that when `A'ishah (may Allah be pleased with her) was asked to describe the character of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him), her definitive answer was,

"His character was that of the Qur'an."

In other words, Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) personified the best ideals and values of the Qur'an.

How could we then neglect the Hadith, which alone can lead us to the precise ways in which the Prophet exemplified the Qur'anic ideals?

Once again let us not forget


………………………..Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do. Al-Baqara [2:85]
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Wednesday, December 13, 2006  -  3:42 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Hadith's Authenticity (by Adil Salahi)
Topic initiated by raushan on Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 11:44 AM


Haven’t anybody concentrated on, ‘garbage of the article full of prejudice thoughts of the Corrupt form of the sect- Ehl-e-hadith, while there is no place of any sect in Islam?????’

quote:

The standard fixed by scholars of Hadith from the very early days was that if someone told a lie in his personal life, though he was honest in the transmitting of Hadith, his Hadith would not be accepted. People criticized their fathers, brothers, friends and close relatives. Perhaps it was the highest possible standard that could be set for the documentation of any source. Therefore, there is no good reason to reject the testimony of contemporaries.


Hundreds of years after death of the prophet, how it is possible to know that he/she had never told a lie in his/her life????
Only Noble Qura’n fulfills the criteria of truthfulness and every other source is surely unreliable.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  2:48 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
...how it is possible to know that he/she had never told a lie in his/her life????

Brother Zulfee, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Can you please tell me who "he/she" refers to? If it refers to the Prophet (SAW), then I'm extremely sorry for you...
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  3:14 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:Brother Zulfee, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Can you please tell me who "he/she" refers to? If it refers to the Prophet (SAW), then I'm extremely sorry for you...


How can 'she' refer to the Prophet?
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  3:21 PM Reply with quote
That's what I'm trying to say! How can "she" refer to the Prophet (SAW)?!! But the fact is that Brother Zulfee is using "he/she" for the Prophet (SAW) for God knows what reason! And I feel like calling him highly ignorant right now, but I think I should first get to know from him what he actually means.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  4:18 PM Reply with quote
quote:

That's what I'm trying to say! How can "she" refer to the Prophet (SAW)?!! But the fact is that Brother Zulfee is using "he/she" for the Prophet (SAW) for God knows what reason! And I feel like calling him highly ignorant right now, but I think I should first get to know from him what he actually means.

You have misunderstood. He/ She meant any other than the prophet who had listened the prophet and explained further.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  4:22 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:
...how it is possible to know that he/she had never told a lie in his/her life????

Brother Zulfee, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Can you please tell me who "he/she" refers to? If it refers to the Prophet (SAW), then I'm extremely sorry for you...

You have misunderstood. He/ She meant any other than the prophet who had listened the prophet and explained further.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  4:43 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:
...how it is possible to know that he/she had never told a lie in his/her life????

Brother Zulfee, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Can you please tell me who "he/she" refers to? If it refers to the Prophet (SAW), then I'm extremely sorry for you...

You have misunderstood. He/ She meant any other than the prophet who had listened the prophet and explained further.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 14, 2006  -  4:44 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:
...how it is possible to know that he/she had never told a lie in his/her life????

Brother Zulfee, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Can you please tell me who "he/she" refers to? If it refers to the Prophet (SAW), then I'm extremely sorry for you...

You have misunderstood. He/ She meant any other than the prophet who had listened the prophet and explained further.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006  -  6:26 AM Reply with quote
Ok ok, I get it! Thankyou!

But you see, my dear brother in Islam, the fact is that we can figure out who exactly was lying and who was not. There are certain criteria for judging the Ahaadeeth, and one of the criteria is to inquire into the character of the person narrating the Hadeeth. If that person has ever lied in his life, then he isn't trusted, and his narration is considered "Da'eef" or weak; as simple as that.

Wallaahu A'lam.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006  -  7:49 PM Reply with quote
salaam all

quote:

Definitely not. But, if you insist that daraba means to seperate here, than my question is to you why did Allah used the word which has direct and well know meaning of "to beat"
Just recall what you have writter earlien "1. The Qur’an is complete and detailed for our guidance." If what you have said is correct, if Quran is complete and detailed than we have to agree that, Allah has give permission to beat their wives in certain circumstances, and limit of beating is not set. He can beat the wife as much as he wish, but not to her death. If you say daraba means to seperate, than Quran is incomplete and not in detail. That's my point


Am I correct in assuming the followers are using the above to justify existance of hadith.
Even if one accepts the (incorrect) interpertation above. How does the Quran permitting beating of a wife validate the often confusing and contradictory collections of hadith?
regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, December 20, 2006  -  8:38 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

Those who believe that the Quran allows them to beat to beat their wives. Can you please explain how this justifies existance of hadith as part of Islamic belief.
regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, December 21, 2006  -  2:27 AM Reply with quote
your question does not make any sense. what are you trying to ask?
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 21, 2006  -  10:22 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salaam

Those who believe that the Quran allows them to beat to beat their wives. Can you please explain how this justifies existance of hadith as part of Islamic belief.
regards


My brother, the person whom you've quoted, he was trying to say that the Qur'an does not mention the limit for beating the wife. It simply orders to beat them (Allah knows better). So if we didn't have the Ahaadeeth, how could we know the limit of beating the wife? I mean, a man could just beat his wife as much as he wished, so, by the Grace of Allah, it was something like "Ahaadeeth to the rescue", lest the person reading the verse of beating the wife should misunderstand the verse, and beat his wife in an improper way.

(N.B. I've only represented the view of the person whose words you'd quoted; this does not necessarily mean that I agree with this person's view.)

Wassalaam, And Allah knows best.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, December 22, 2006  -  12:26 AM Reply with quote
Salaam Nida

You have an commendable temprement for someone so young & I hope you will continue in your journey with an open mind.
As for the present debate

quote:

it was something like "Ahaadeeth to the rescue", lest the person reading the verse of beating the wife should misunderstand the verse, and beat his wife in an improper way.


So let me try to clarify this... What the hadith believers are saying is that hadith is trying to rescue the sayings in the Quran i.e. God has become little unpleasent and has allowed men to beat thier wives (I assume here that as a Muslim we accept that the Quran is the word of God) but we needed the hadith to put the matter right i.e. elevating the hadith above the cruel Quran.

(N.B. I've only represented the view of the person whose words you'd quoted; this does not necessarily mean that I agree with this person's view.)

So from this I can only assume that you think this person is talking goobledegook. Exactly which part of his statement do you agree or disagree with then.
Perhaps the person who made this statement would like to clarify the situation.
regards
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 22, 2006  -  8:07 AM Reply with quote
Assalaamu 'Alaikum all.
Quote:
...we needed the hadith to put the matter right i.e. elevating the hadith above the "cruel" Quran.

Not at all, brother! I knew you would misunderstand me, so I wrote "by the Grace of Allah" before that, indicating that it was all by the will of Allah that He gave us the Ahaadeeth.
The Qur'an is the words of Allah, and the Ahaadeeth their explanation. Although Allah himself says in the Qur'an that His Book is easy to understand, I think many a times a person may get confused on certain verses of the Qur'an. Why (even though the Qur'an is detailed and explained)?
Because we're humans. We're not capable of understanding the full message of the Qur'an without someone to guide us, and that guide was our Holy Prophet (SAW). Being the Messenger, his knowledge was very great, obviously the greatest among humans. He was a living example and a guide, and his words (Ahaadeeth) still continue to guide us. Who could've better interpreted the Qur'an than the Messenger of Allah? So he proved to be an excellent guide in the form of a Mufassir, and taught us the full meaning of the Qur'an, lest we, in our ignorance, should misunderstand it. So if we're taking his help in understanding the Qur'an better, how can that mean that we're worshipping him or considering him to be a deity?

You wrote:
Exactly which part of his statement do you agree or disagree with then.

The thing is, I follow the translation of 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali. His translation says, "beat them lightly", so I don't think I have any problem with that because the verse is clear to me (although the guidance of the Prophet (SAW) would still be helpful).
The person whom you quoted (what's his name anyway?) thinks that the verse isn't clear since it says "beat them", so a person can go on beating as much as he wishes. It's all a matter of interpretation. If he thinks that he needs a Hadeeth on such an issue, he may consult it; I, on the other hand, think that the verse is clear.

Wassalaam, and Allah possesses Infinite Knowledge and Wisdom, and therefore only He knows best. And may He forgive me if I've presented a wrong concept!

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