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raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  12:21 PM Reply with quote
quote:

......
No command of Arabic of any kind so need the support of those who translate (If your point is I dont speak or understand Arabic..readily conceded).



you understand the book through translation means you are blindly following a person's translating capacity.so your immidiate source of guidence is not a divine book but a translator.

If Bukhari's book cant be a geniune interprator then the same would be true for someone else work?
or are they error free?

next,I was asking that a book which is entirely in arabic language and is known to all,repeatedly saying about itself that is in arabic.why?

salam

Edited by: raushan on Sunday, January 07, 2007 12:23 PM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  1:35 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Nida_e_Khair PAKISTAN Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007 - 11:38 AM I totally agree with sister Henna's view.
But she writes:

Hence the deen would be complete even without the books of ahadith.

In that case how would you determine the method of performing salat, wudhu, hajj, etc..etc..?

Wa s salam.

Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  3:56 PM Reply with quote
That would be through the Sunnah.
Ahaadeeth and Sunnah are two separate things. And the Holy Prophet (SAW) himself said that he was leaving two things behind: The Holy Qur'an and his Sunnah.
And Allah knows best.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  9:52 PM Reply with quote
I have already posted what I believe to be the case as far as the age of marrige of Hazrat Ayesha rta is concerned.I will like to ask those participants who believe that hadith are not only authentic but source of religion to clarify, what there views are on these ahadith.



Aisha — 9 year-old bride

Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Aisha: The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age.
Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234

Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151

Sahih Muslim

Chapter 10: IT IS PERMISSIBLE FOR THE FATHER TO GIVE THE HAND OF HIS DAUGHTER IN MARRIAGE EVEN WHEN SHE IS NOT FULLY GROWN UP.
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house at the age of nine. She further said: We went to Medina and I had an attack of fever for a month, and my hair had come down to the earlobes. Umm Ruman (my mother) came to me and I was at that time on a swing along with my playmates. She called me loudly and I went to her and I did not know what she had wanted of me. She took hold of my hand and took me to the door, and I was saying: Ha, ha (as if I was gasping), until the agitation of my heart was over. She took me to a house, where had gathered the women of the Ansar. They all blessed me and wished me good luck and said: May you have share in good. She (my mother) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and embellished me and nothing frightened me. Allah's Messenger (, may peace be upon him) came there in the morning, and I was entrusted to him. Book 8, Number 3309.

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported: Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married me when I was six years old, and I was admitted to his house when I was nine years old. Book 8, Number 3310

'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) married her when she was seven years old, and he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he (the Holy Prophet) died she was eighteen years old. Book 8, Number 3311

Sunan Dawud

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. Book 41, Number 4915:

Narrated AbuUsamah: The tradition mentioned above (No. 4915) has also been transmitted by AbuUsamah in a similar manner through a different chain of narrators. This version has: "With good fortune. " She (Umm Ruman) entrusted me to them. They washed my head and redressed me. No one came to me suddenly except the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) in the forenoon. So they entrusted me to him. Book 41, Number 4916:


Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When we came to Medina, the women came to me when I was playing on the swing, and my hair were up to my ears. They brought me, prepared me, and decorated me. Then they brought me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and he took up cohabitation with me, when I was nine. Book 41, Number 4917
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, January 07, 2007  -  9:58 PM Reply with quote
Salaam raushan

quote:

you understand the book through translation means you are blindly following a person's translating capacity.so your immidiate source of guidence is not a divine book but a translator.

If Bukhari's book cant be a geniune interprator then the same would be true for someone else work?


I think you need to eliminate your confusioon regarding interpertation and translation.
If I say in English Mona Lisa is a painting. You can literally translate that in any language.
However if you decide to interpert it and say i meant it was a dreadful painting etc and it does not even need to be translated. There now exist numerous literature and translation where differnt meanings of words is explained (in circumstances where a word can have numerous meanings)

Also you are little bit confused, or I am unaware, Bukhari did not translate the Quran. He decided to make huge number of collections of what the prophet was alleged to have done and said 300 years after his death.
He has attempted to explain the Quran, although not all of it. Whether I spoke Arbic or not would be irrelevent to whether I agree with someones interpertation.
However perhaps you have not followed this debate..I cannot recall anything regarding Bukharis interpertation of the Quran. In the last few pages one of the major point has been. Why did Bukhari and co collect hadith when the prophet had clearly forbidden it...Anyway this is getting away from your point.

As for learning Arabic. I will have to learn from someone or some text so my understanding will be limited by whoever/whatever teaches me. Do you think each evry single word has only one meaning. Do you switch your brain of when you read a translation and accept it regardless of what it says.
My first reading of english Quran was Yousuf Ali. There were many issues which i could not logically accept and was troubled... simple example is whom your 'right hand possess' I found it very troubling as to why Zina was forbidden and then allowed. However I have read numerous translations and there are translators who make sense to me and I am content with their translation (whether you are or not is up to you).
I think you make a common mistake that speaking a language makes you understand things better (yes occasionally it may) but if you followed this through all non latin speking doctors would be inferior to latin speakers (as most of medical words are in latin). If we followed your logic through we woud not learn of any advances in science, philosphy, geography etc if they were in a languge we did not understand.

quote:

or are they error free?

Humans are prone to error regardless of who they are.
Or are you suggesting that there are no contradictions hadith and it due translators errors. While now as an Arab & English speaker you can rectify this error.

quote:

next,I was asking that a book which is entirely in arabic language and is known to all,repeatedly saying about itself that is in arabic.why?


I suppose I could ask you the same question. I will assume that you think that God is stating the obvious. My understanding (even though I dont speak arabic) is that what it means that it is clearly and logicaly explained. Because I could not understand why could would keep stating this is an Arabic Quran when it was in Arabic. (Yes I did my study/research etc and satisfied with my finding-until someone comes up with better translation)
Perhaps you could translate the word Arabic.
Anyway do you speak Aramic or hebrew and do you read the new and the old testement in these languages?

Obviousouly you speak Arabic so it will be easy for you explain all the contradiction that exist in hadith and why the prophet is is portrayed in such a poor light in many of the hadith...there you are should be dead easy for Arabic speking to Arabically ignorant souls like me...look forward to your explanation
regards
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  1:13 AM Reply with quote
quote:

That would be through the Sunnah.
And what is the name of the book which details the Sunnah?
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  1:22 AM Reply with quote
quote:

aboosait did tell us something about the text size
and if your browser does not support Arabic fonts, click 'view',point on 'encoding' and click 'Arabic (windows)'
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  6:22 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I have already posted what I believe to be the case as far as the age of marrige of Hazrat Ayesha rta is concerned...

salam
waseem,
...The saying goes that she was 7 at her nikah i.e. 8 at Hijrah that occurred 13 years after the declaration of prophethood. If it were true the declaration of prophethood occurred 5 years before her birth. Did she embrace Islam 5 years prior to her birth? .

http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.2001/dialogue.htm#haz

perv1
thanks for your answers

wassalam
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  8:52 AM Reply with quote
Salam brother Roushan

That is exactly my point. I have already posted my views about hazrat Ayesha's age at marrige. I would like to know what authencity these ahadith have that tell that the prophet pbuh was engaged to a girl of 6 years and married her at aged 9. I do not believe these ahadith to be correct at all.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  10:32 AM Reply with quote
Quote:And what is the name of the book which details the Sunnah?

thats the beauty of the Sunnah that it does not need to be bound in a book to be followed. sunnah is comprised by the practices which are seen and felt everyday in all muslim societies e.g. there has not been a single day since the time of the last prophet sws, without the following acts in a muslim society: a nikah, a birth of a baby with all the formalities including adhan in the his/her ear, a death and a funeral, burial, manners like greeting eachother with salam,hygienic accessories like cutting nails etc. then Fri and Eid prayers, (ps the list of the sunans on our course forums and with references in the course material"Understanding the Sunnah")

hence on one hand muslim ummah is taken care of (to the level of being spoilt really-becoz the loving Lord cud hv left us to find the way ourselves since we were borne with the innate guidance anyway) by being provided with the encoded text, the Qura'n and on the other hand the painstaking efforts of the Muallim, Muhammd (pbuh) and his companions(may Allah be pleased with all of them) helped to continue into the generations to come, the sunans/ the practices to live Islam in day to day lives- in such a way that even if no book was written about them, they would be visible everywhere just like the beautiful flowers with lovely colours and smell which continue to display their colour and send out their perfumes whether there are people around to see or not and whether its dark or light
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  11:37 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-they would be visible everywhere just like the beautiful flowers with lovely colours and smell which continue to display their colour and send out their perfumes whether there are people around to see or not and whether its dark or light


Sister with these beautiful flowers now there so many dirty flowers are aslo very vesible there.The majority of my contrymen are doing that(bidah) in the mane of Prophet(pbuh).Whoes going to decide which one is beautiful flowers and which one is dirty?
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  1:29 PM Reply with quote
yes there are definitely cases where the innovating Muslims have audaciously introduced something new in the established Sunan, or have amended
a Sunnah or have forsaken a Sunnah. The Holy Prophet (sws) strictly discouraged
innovations in the Sunan. Such innovations are termed Bid‘ah. But even here, the innovations have not succeeded to create doubts about the authenticity of the Sunnah.

In all such cases of innovations, it is known for sure that either the original
Sunnah of the Holy Prophet (sws) has been tampered with or an entirely new
practice has been added without sanction of the Holy Prophet (sws). The
innovators could not introduce these innovations (Bid‘at) without being noticed.


Even the individuals responsible for such innovations and the historical details of the motives are fully known. It is perfectly obvious, that given the importance of Sunnah in Islam, any such change or innovation in Islam always sparked off strong reactions from the orthodoxy. Such attempts to innovations were therefore recorded prominently in the pages of Muslim history.(parag from the course 'Understanding the Sunnah'www.studting-islam.org)

and really it does not take much of a common sense to see the difference between an established sunnah of the prophets and the influence of culture 'n tradition(does demand time 'n effort though) one of the aims of this site and its sister organizations is to communicate the true message of Islam and to purge it from various innovations which have, over the years, crept into its edifice. Mission: www.monthly-renaissance.com)

BE WARE OF BIDA'hs
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  1:35 PM Reply with quote
quote:

thats the beauty of the Sunnah that it does not need to be bound in a book to be followed...
Thank you sister and Jazaak-allah. I shall get back insha- Allah after you reply to brother Usmani's comments
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  1:48 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
...one of the aims of this site and its sister organizations is to communicate the true message of Islam and to purge it from various innovations...
and do you think the belief that covering the head is part of the Sharee'ah is an innovation?
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  2:08 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Raushan

quote:

perv1
thanks for your answers


You are welcome regardless whether you agreed or disagreed with them.

Salaam Waseem

Thank you for for illustrating exactly how accurate the hadith are...if people still feel they are divine and somehow part of Islam then their choice..for each one us will be responsible for our own deeds

regards
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  3:19 PM Reply with quote
Nida_e_Khair PAKISTAN Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007 - 1:48 PM
quote:

..and do you think the belief that covering the head is part of the Sharee'ah is an innovation?

وَقُل لِّلْمُؤْمِنَاتِ يَغْضُضْنَ مِنْ أَبْصَارِهِنَّ وَيَحْفَظْنَ فُرُوجَهُنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا مَا ظَهَرَ مِنْهَا وَلْيَضْرِبْنَ بِخُمُرِهِنَّ عَلَى جُيُوبِهِنَّ وَلَا يُبْدِينَ زِينَتَهُنَّ إِلَّا لِبُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَائِهِنَّ أَوْ آبَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَائِهِنَّ أَوْ أَبْنَاء بُعُولَتِهِنَّ أَوْ إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي إِخْوَانِهِنَّ أَوْ بَنِي أَخَوَاتِهِنَّ أَوْ نِسَائِهِنَّ أَوْ مَا مَلَكَتْ أَيْمَانُهُنَّ أَوِ التَّابِعِينَ غَيْرِ أُوْلِي الْإِرْبَةِ مِنَ الرِّجَالِ أَوِ الطِّفْلِ الَّذِينَ لَمْ يَظْهَرُوا عَلَى عَوْرَاتِ النِّسَاء وَلَا يَضْرِبْنَ بِأَرْجُلِهِنَّ لِيُعْلَمَ مَا يُخْفِينَ مِن زِينَتِهِنَّ وَتُوبُوا إِلَى اللَّهِ جَمِيعًا أَيُّهَا الْمُؤْمِنُونَ لَعَلَّكُمْ تُفْلِحُونَ (24:31)
(24:31)



24:31 And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and to be mindful of their chastity, and not to display their charms [in public] beyond what may [decently] be apparent thereof;
hence, let them draw their HEAD-COVERINGs over their bosoms. And let them not display [more of] their charms to any but their husbands, or their fathers, or their husbands’ fathers, or their sons, or their husbands’ Sons, or their brothers, or their brothers’ sons, or their sisters’ sons, or their womenfolk, or those whom they rightfully possess, or such male attendants as are beyond all sexual desire, or children that are as yet unaware of women’s nakedness; and let them not swing their legs [in walking] so as to draw attention to their hidden charms And [always], O you believers - all of you - turn unto God in repentance, so that you might attain to a happy state!


Waqul lilmuminati yaghdudna min absarihinna wayahfathna furoojahunna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa ma thahara minha walyadribna bikhumurihinna AAala juyoobihinna wala yubdeena zeenatahunna illa libuAAoolatihinna aw abaihinna aw abai buAAoolatihinna aw abnaihinna aw abnai buAAoolatihinna aw ikhwanihinna aw banee ikhwanihinna aw banee akhawatihinna aw nisaihinna aw ma malakat aymanuhunna awi alttabiAAeena ghayri olee alirbati mina alrrijali awi alttifli allatheena lam yathharoo AAala AAawrati alnnisai wala yadribna biarjulihinna liyuAAlama ma yukhfeena min zeenatihinna watooboo ila Allahi jameeAAan ayyuha almuminoona laAAallakum tuflihoona

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