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Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, January 08, 2007  -  3:33 PM Reply with quote
Thanks for the quote, brother aboosait. Actually, sister Henna is the one who does not agree with you.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  2:05 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Thanks for the quote, brother aboosait. Actually, sister Henna is the one who does not agree with you.

I have quoted a verse from the Qur'an and its transliteration in English as also the translation of the meaning of the verse.
Anyone who refuses to accept this Ayat may please read the following Ayat and take heed:



Al-Baqara [2:85]
ثُمَّ أَنتُمْ هَـؤُلاء تَقْتُلُونَ أَنفُسَكُمْ وَتُخْرِجُونَ فَرِيقاً مِّنكُم مِّن دِيَارِهِمْ تَظَاهَرُونَ عَلَيْهِم بِالإِثْمِ وَالْعُدْوَانِ وَإِن يَأتُوكُمْ أُسَارَى تُفَادُوهُمْ وَهُوَ مُحَرَّمٌ عَلَيْكُمْ إِخْرَاجُهُمْ أَفَتُؤْمِنُونَ بِبَعْضِ الْكِتَابِ وَتَكْفُرُونَ بِبَعْضٍ فَمَا جَزَاء مَن يَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ مِنكُمْ إِلاَّ خِزْيٌ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَيَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ يُرَدُّونَ إِلَى أَشَدِّ الْعَذَابِ وَمَا اللّهُ بِغَافِلٍ عَمَّا تَعْمَلُونَ


Thumma antum haolai taqtuloona anfusakum watukhrijoona fareeqan minkum min diyarihim tathaharoona AAalayhim bialithmi waalAAudwani wain yatookum osara tufadoohum wahuwa muharramun AAalaykum ikhrajuhum afatuminoona bibaAAdi alkitabi watakfuroona bibaAAdin fama jazao man yafAAalu thalika minkum illa khizyun fee alhayati alddunya wayawma alqiyamati yuraddoona ila ashaddi alAAathabi wama Allahu bighafilin AAamma taAAmaloona

2:85 After this it is ye, the same people, who slay among yourselves, and banish a party of you from their homes; assist (Their enemies) against them, in guilt and rancour; and if they come to you as captives, ye ransom them, though it was not lawful for you to banish them. Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  4:28 AM Reply with quote
You know what, brother? I think you should check out the topic "Are Muslims on TV Really on Guidance?" It was initiated by me and I've had a lot of arguments in there regarding this belief that covering the head is not part of the Sharee'ah.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  7:50 AM Reply with quote
quote:

You know what, brother? I think you should check out the topic "Are Muslims on TV Really on Guidance?" It was initiated by me and I've had a lot of arguments in there regarding this belief that covering the head is not part of the Sharee'ah.
"......hence, let them draw their HEAD-COVERINGs over their bosoms....."

What I gather is that the Arab women were (as was the custom in other countries too) in the habit of covering their heads and we have been further commanded that this should not be like the handkerchief we see some men tying on their heads in mosques but sufficiently big to be drawn over the bosoms. Why do you pay heed to what people say when Allah's command is cystal clear? Please give me the link to the thread.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  9:38 AM Reply with quote
Quote:
Why do you pay heed to what people say when Allah's command is cystal clear?

Brother aboosait, I just wanted to make it clear to these people that covering the head IS part of the Sharee'ah, but I just realised that my efforts were useless. Brother Marwan did help me out a lot, Alhamdulillah, but there were too many quarrels.
So before giving you the link, please let me make it very clear that I've no intention of starting a discord (again). So please just read the comments over there, and don't start anything new. That would be appreciated. Thanks.
Wassalaam.
http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=1982&lang=&forumid=1
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  11:12 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-But even here, the innovations have not succeeded to create doubts about the authenticity of the Sunnah.

How you are going to prove the authencity of a Sunnah? Please give an answer which could be acceptable for others as well.Every one can come out with a list of Sunnah of his desire like this website did.This is not going to solve the problem but would make it worst.How can be we sure who is right and who is wrong.What must be the criteria to judge it.

Regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, January 09, 2007  -  2:28 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Henna

quote:

yes there are definitely cases where the innovating Muslims have audaciously introduced something new in the established Sunan, or have amended
a Sunnah or have forsaken a Sunnah.


How do we know of these cases. I mean if there is no record how do we know which is original and which is an innovation. Surely the notion of Sunnah is actually poorer version of hadith.
At least with hadith (whether you agree or not there is a written version). However with Sunna you are expecting unwritten costumes rituals etc to remain constant (virtually impossible) and as expected there are variations. However with passage of time there is no way of discerning which are the original....so it leads to yet more sects.
Why not stick to the best Sunna of all...THE SUNNA OF QURAN

(ps - hope you had a pleasent journey back)
Regards
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, January 10, 2007  -  12:47 AM Reply with quote
(ws dr. sb. yes we did thnx. the event 'eid with orphans' was great mash'Allah and even better than last year. may god accept everyone's efforts who worked for it)
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, January 10, 2007  -  1:03 AM Reply with quote
As for the question as to how can we distinguish a Sunnah from a non- Sunnah in the literature of Hadith, we’ll have to look for practices that are mentioned in Hadith literature which are also being universally followed amongst Muslims as such. Prayers, jumu‘ah prayers, funeral prayers, bathing of the dead and many other practices are the ones that are mentioned in the Hadith literature, and Muslims have adopted them in their lives as part of their religion. (Dr.Khalid Zaheer)
http://www.islamicissues.info/qa_question.php?qid=362

"We always have to be checking and re-checking the work of the scholar because no scholar has the final word... If we rely on any century's thought, then we inevitably become stagnant intellectually and we stop reaching the minds of future generations."
Dr.Jeffrey Lang http://onlineislamicstore.com/a3850.html
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, January 10, 2007  -  1:10 AM Reply with quote
"Secondly, full importance should be given to whatever is mentioned in Ahadith and Athar literature with reference to the Prophet (sws) and his Companions (rta). No doubt they contain many spurious things, and since the original words have not always been preserved and a narrator has relied on his own intellect to transmit these words, a lot of changes have come about in the original words, yet this literature still contains many valuable gems.

While pointing out the correct attitude in this regard, Imam Amin Ahsan Islahi, writes:

Among the dhanni [speculative; non-definite] sources of tafsir, Ahadith and Athar occupy the highest status. If their authenticity could have been full relied upon, they would have had the same importance in tafsir as the Sunnat-i Mutawatirah. However, since Ahadith and Athar do not possess this degree of authenticity, they can only be benefited from as far as they are found to be in conformity with the absolute principles of interpreting the Qur’an delineated above. Those who give such importance to the Hadith that they make the Qur’an subservient to it are neither aware of the status of the Qur’an nor that of the Hadith. On other hand, people who don’t even refer to the Hadith in interpreting the Qur’an deprive themselves of a great treasure second only to the Qur’an. I consider the Hadith to be totally derived from the Qur’an; thus I have not confined myself to Hadith which are mentioned in relation to a verse of the Qur’an; as far as I could, I have tried to benefit from the whole corpus of the Hadith. They have helped me the most in understanding the wisdom of the Qur’an. If I have found a Hadith which is not in harmony with the Qur’an, I have deliberated upon it for a long period, and I have only rejected it when it became abundantly clear to me that it is against the Qur’an or it is in conflict with some principle of religion. As far as correct Hadith are concerned, seldom has there arisen a case in which they contradict the Qur’an; however, when this was the case, I have preferred the Qur’an to them, and have written my reasons of this preference in detail."

http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/JanQur2y7.htm
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, January 10, 2007  -  2:39 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

I think this site has got itself bit muddled and with contradictory views on hadith and sunna.
The fact that so many sects pray differntly and carry out different rituals negates the whole sunna arguement. As often the sunna or hadith people follow is whatever sect they happen to believe. Since there is no convicing arguement for any sect other than Oh well our scholars say this makes one wonder why muslims have not learned from history...which is when humans start to introduce their own sunnas they inevitably create sects and corrupt what God intended.
I dont expect you to agree but the official views of this site are rather muddled and quite contradictory. I am afraid intellectually speaking (ignore our religious leanings) very weak indeed.

Hadith containing gems hmmmm...Well it might be like the gems that hadith are against


regards
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, January 10, 2007  -  10:39 PM Reply with quote
...before we proceed let us remind ourselves that one of the very important aims of Studying Islam is to create an intellectual space for our communities in order for them to discuss their Q, concerns and problems freely-
therefore we want our dear participants to rest assure that even if it is the school of thought this site follows, this does not at all mean that the participants are bound by this school; free and healthy exchange of views keeps us alive and prevents us from being stagnant.

Quote:Why not stick to the best Sunna of all...THE SUNNA OF QURAN

let me put it this way that i understood the concept of sunnah by comparing it to the 'juma'njee' game; where you actually hv to enter the game itself to play it. the practices like the rituals of prayers etc. could be visible only if practiced by people around. all of us hv learnt the way of praying by looking at someone-not from Qura'n or books of hadith.
yes Qura'n does command us about salah/prayers and hadith does elaborate its manners.
ditto goes for all such day to day practices. God arranged sunnah to remain completed beyond doubt-just as Qura'n, because it was to be a part of His last message-- and allowed hadith to be a human effort at preserving information about the Prophet (sws).
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, January 11, 2007  -  5:39 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-the practices like the rituals of prayers etc. could be visible only if practiced by people around. all of us hv learnt the way of praying by looking at someone-not from Qura'n or books of hadith.

Yes you are correct when we are growing up we learn the the prayers the way you describe. But when we already grew up then we notice that some people are praying a bit differently from us. Finally we find out that the people who prays bit differently is also in accordance of the Prophet(pbuh) Sunnah.These differences in prayer is not just because of the practices of Muslims all over the world but mainly due to the four Imams of fiqa whom adopted the way of praying mainly how the ahadith telling them Prophet(pbuh) Him self have prayed a bit differently over various times and occasions.They used their intellect for slecting one way or the other,but no one deviated from the ahadith.We can see these minor differences in prayers our self in the ahadith literature.So what I am trying to tell is even in the payer the most important pillar of our deen, ahadith is the source which serving as a criteria to judge our prayers.We are not blindly following the practices of people around us when we start learning the prayers nor the four great Imams.It is ahadith which give us satisfaction that we following the sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) correctly and then we don’t get upset if some people around us praying a bit differently.


What I am trying to let out friends know of this website is that my dear friends for so long,why you so nice people trying to describe Sunnah using you intellect.The Quran and ahadith are telling us what is the Sunnah of prophet(pbuh) is.Here I would like to present few ahadith in this regards. These ahadith giving us the knowledge that what was the Sunnah in the eyes of Prophet(pbuh) and what was the Sunnah in the eyes of His companions.These ahadith clearly telling that Sunnah what actually explained in the course “Understanding the Sunnah” is not correct and misleading his students.This wrong understanding can lead one to the path where the person will displeased Allah that forsure.


Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Mutarrif ibn Abdullah reported:Imran ibn Husayn was asked about a person who divorces his wife, and then has intercourse with her, but he does not call any witness to her divorce nor to her restoration. He said: You divorced against the Sunnah and took her back against the Sunnah. Call someone to bear witness to her divorce, and to her return in marriage, and do not repeat it. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2181)

Narrated Amr ibn al-'As: Do not confuse us about his Sunnah. Ibn al-Muthanna said: The Sunnah of our Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) is that the waiting period of a slave-mother whose husband has died is four months and ten days. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2301)

Narrated Tamim ad-Dari: Tamim asked: Apostle of Allah), what is the Sunnah about a man who accepts Islam by advice and persuasion of a Muslim? He replied: He is the nearest to him in life and in death. (SunanAbudawud Book #18, Hadith #2912)

Narrated Al-Bara': The Prophet delivered the Khutba on the day of Nahr ('Id-ul-Adha) and said, "The first thing we should do on this day of ours is to pray and then return and slaughter (our sacrifices). So anyone who does so he acted according to our Sunna; and whoever slaughtered before the prayer then it was just meat that he offered to his family and would not be considered as a sacrifice in any way. my uncle Abu Burda bin Niyyar got up and said, "O, Allah's Apostle! I slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer but I have a young she-goat which is better than an older sheep." The Prophet said, "Slaughter it in lieu of the first and such a goat will not be considered as a sacrifice for anybody else after you." (Sahih Bukhari Book #15, Hadith #85)

Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)

Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "My example and the example of what I have been sent with is that of a man who came to some people and said, 'O people! I have seen the enemy's army with my own eyes, and I am the naked warner; so protect yourselves!' Then a group of his people obeyed him and fled at night proceeding stealthily till they were safe, while another group of them disbelieved him and stayed at their places till morning when the army came upon them, and killed and ruined them completely So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)

Narrated Humaid: I heard Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan delivering a sermon. He said, "I heard the Prophet saying, "If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna. I am but a distributor, and Allah is the Giver. The state of this nation will remain good till the Hour is established, or till Allah's Order comes." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #415)

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom (i.e., Qur'an and Sunna) and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (to others i.e., religious knowledge of Qur'an and Sunna (Prophet's Traditions)). " (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

Narrated Sa'id bin 'Ubada Al-Ansari: that he consulted the Prophet about a vow that had been made by his mother who died without fulfilling it. The Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna (i.e. the Prophet's tradition). (Sahih Bukhari Book #78, Hadith #689)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

May Allah You give me and others Muslims brothers and sisters some light so we could able to follow You and Your Prophet(pbuh) and not our nauf and our scholars where they are not correct.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, January 12, 2007  -  9:38 AM Reply with quote
no doubt that following any scholars has to be with open minds whilst using brains keeping the Guardian/muhaimin(Qura'n) as the criterion. alhamdulillah the work of the scholars of this site is based on this criterion. as a matter of fact Qura'n asks us to use our minds even whilst reading the Qura'n itself.

now the one and single source of Truth untill the Day of Judgement is only Muhammad (sws). because Qur'an was revealed upon him and hence his teachings automatically include the teachings of Qur'an; since its revelation began he spent his life teaching it in words and practice.
as for all the hadiths that we give for ref.of specially if we are deriving Rules from them, the recommended action is to critically analyze each one of them, like dr waseem has done about the hijab article post- obviously none of us is a hadith scholar here-we can therefore take help from those who are presently working on this speciality. unfortunately our scholarship in islamic sciences is only a handful and juvenile compared to the scholarship of other sciences in the world today; hence we ought to encourage these handfuls who have taken this daunting task of critically analyzing and researching in islamic sciences and propagating the essence of it, the Truth; which is the only hope for the muslim ummah today to come out of the darkness of sectarinism and ignorance-leading to their destruction everywhere in the world.

the present day ilm/knowledge in any subject is heavily based on critical analysis be it literacy, maths, physics, biology. we must think that why should the science of hadith be excluded from it. this is what has turned the bright minds of today, specially our younger generations completely away from hadith (few of these generations hv already been effected now and if we didn't do anything about it N:OW, another generation will take a one-way ticket out of our community) that whatever they otherwise learn out there and are specializing in is making them leaders of innovative thoughts by getting involved in critical techniques, texture criricism, critical research; and when they come to the masjids they are asked to take another approach; where the systen is based on traditional thought-they are expected to put heads down and follow blindly like a herd of sheep and if we don't use our minds here as well, we'll be practically being a herd of sheep here, just wasting time--if we all don't mind

http://www.sheep.com/sounds/baalots1.wav
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, January 12, 2007  -  2:15 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Henna

I agree with mostly what you have said.

quote:

for all the hadiths that we give for ref.of specially if we are deriving Rules from them, the recommended action is to critically analyze each one of them,


I still dont understand why we still stuck in this rut about something which has absolutely nothing to do with the original Islam. Just because we have grown up with the concept of hadith does not mean we have to carry this emotional garbage all our life. There is absolutely no reason to derive any Islamic laws from hadith....for they are the same form of corruption that has occured to the message of Allah conveyed by all the prophets before the Quran.

quote:

unfortunately our scholarship in islamic sciences is only a handful and juvenile compared to the scholarship of other sciences in the world today;

Unfortunately this is painfully true.

quote:

hence we ought to encourage these handfuls who have taken this daunting task of critically analyzing and researching in islamic sciences and propagating the essence of it,



It would be great benefit if muslims started to practically do this. Unfortunately for most the idea of critical analysis means: To have well set prejudices and then spend the rest of the life defending them.


quote:

the Truth; which is the only hope for the muslim ummah today to come out of the darkness of sectarinism and ignorance-leading to their destruction everywhere in the world.


Excellent. Truth begins with being honest with ones own self & that is where we should all begin.

quote:

the present day ilm/knowledge in any subject is heavily based on critical analysis be it literacy, maths, physics, biology. we must think that why should the science of hadith be excluded from it
.

Knowldge has always been critically analysed. All the great civilisations have emerged as a result & their down fall results when they abandon this process. In fact Islam was based on critical analsis and resulted were phenomenal but once this approach was abandoned the Muslims gradually fell to the bottom of pile.
quote:

where the systen is based on traditional thought-they are expected to put heads down and follow blindly like a herd of sheep and if we don't use our minds here as well, we'll be practically being a herd of sheep here
,

True.

regards
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, January 13, 2007  -  3:31 AM Reply with quote
[quote].... the only hope for the muslim ummah today to come out of the darkness of sectarinism and ignorance-leading to their destruction everywhere in the world....the present day ilm/knowledge in any subject is heavily based on critical analysis be it literacy, maths, physics, biology


It has been observed that these days a vast majority of Muslims (both shia and sunni)have been (and are continously being) drawn into the belief of the Sufis who follow a conglamoration of different faiths with which Muslims interacted during the past several centuries.

The followers of Sufism call themselves Muslims. Most of their leaders with whom I had the opportunity to debate tried to justify their stand by naming (falsely accusing) some of the Imams and scholars among the Salaf as Sufis.

They very well know that their stand is clearly against the Qur'an. They could not fabricate lies in the name of Sunnah because even the thousands of fabricated 'hadeeth' are already available in print (and most of which have been proved to be false)leaving no scope for them to make any additions; and none of these 'ahadeeth' speak in their favour.

The object of my writing this to you is because you had earlier posted that the Sunnah of Rasoolullah s.a.w which has been transmitted orally and practically passed on from generation to generation is suffient and islam would be complete without the written Hadeeth.

My conclusion is that written Hadeeth are indispensable in circumstances such as described above
.

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