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Posted - Saturday, January 20, 2007  -  1:50 AM Reply with quote
I am just curious as to how you have arrived at the conclusion that such a method is not halal.

I am not saying it is halal or haram, I am just saying what makes you think so. It might be a fundamental quesition or thing that you dont have to think about and you automatically judged it as not halal, but please clarify to others.

I guess the simple question would be:
* has Allah or His rasool declared such a method haram?

Posted - Sunday, January 21, 2007  -  1:12 AM Reply with quote
My own preference would be a female doctor for my wife and a male doctor for me. However it is difficult at times to get what you want. But I have seen that most doctors are very professional in their work, they see so many of these body organs in their work, that they have phased out the lust. It is just part of the job.

HOwever I think it might be different and not correct for immature students to look at the organs.

You know, I was quite surprised when I heard from someone that in Saudia the men prefer male obgyn for their wives when the wives are giving birth. The mentality there seems to be male doctors are better than female doctors (since woman is only half as good as a man according to many of the arabs). This is pretty sad.

Posted - Sunday, January 21, 2007  -  2:31 AM Reply with quote

My own preference would be a female doctor for my wife and a male doctor for me.

Imagine a situation where the female patient under examination cannot be told of her problems and the examining doctor has to explain (and sometimes show) to the accompanying person. Will you/your spouse be comfortable with the female doctor calling you in camera after the examination and explaining to you showing the scanned images of the private parts of your spouse?

I, as an elderly person of the Ummah would advice Nida and her like to keep away from such arguementative thoughts (which can be waswas-il khannas) because you are too young to go into all this.

Concentrate in your studies!

As can be seen from the adifferent posts above, the subject started in a lonely school in some remote corner of a country, but the participants of the forum started blaming the country and its adminstration. Some youth evinced interest in knowing the name and adress of the institution. (to launch a crusade?)

Sura Al Hujuraat verse 10: (Translation of the meaning)

"O Believers! People should not scorn others for perhaps they may be better than them. Neither should women scorn other women, for they may also be better than them."

This verse introduces certain prohibitions necessary for the establishment of successful Islamic Society. Allah forbids the believers from mockery, scorning or looking down at someone - Scorn is the product of Pride, which is itself prohibited in Islam. And:

"Indeed He (Allah) does not love the proud" [Soorah an-Nahl: 23]

Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said:

"Allah All-Mighty said: "Pride is My cloak, and Glory is My Wrap, so for he who competes with Me in either of these, I will cast him into the Fire." [Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah]

Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "If you were not sinners, I would fear what is worse for you: Pride, Pride (Ujb)."

Al-Ujb in this Hadeeth implies arrogance due to self-praise. It borders on the slave who is blessed by Allah with His Ability of hiding imperfections and sins. Allah hides his sins and imperfections from the people and yet he behaves in a manner as though he is better than some.

Al-Ujb may or may not be apparent, and if manifested outwardly it is called Pride or Arrogance. It creeps unto us when ideal discussions take place criticizing the sinner, though we do not name him. It is a way of 'showing your pride without showing it' And the Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "He will not enter Paradise who has even a speck of pride in his heart." [Saheeh Muslim]

Categories of Pride and their Cure:
Ego (the self as distinguished from others) Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Indeed, Allah revealed to me: Humble yourself until none is proud over another and none is oppressive over another." [Saheeh Muslim]

Each additional thing that one becomes proud of, builds his ego or the contentment of his self. This is witnessed in the behavior of Iblees. When Allah ordered angels and Iblees to bow to Adam (alaihi as-salaam). Iblees refused to do so arguing that he was formed from smokeless fire, and thus was better than Adam (alaihi as-salaam), who was created from dust. [(7): 12]

He was too proud to obey Allah's command: "He said: 'I am better than him (Adam)." [Soorah Saad : 76]

The cure of Pride is to remember that we are created from a substance not worth mentioning: "Has there not been, over man, a period of time when he was nothing worthy of mention?" [Soorah al-Insan (9): 1]

"Did we not create you from a fluid of no value?" [Soorah al-Mursalaat (71): 20]

Thus, be mindful of the saying of Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam): "…and none humbles himself to Allah, but Allah raises him." [Saheeh Muslim]

Let him, who is proud of his knowledge analyze the Hadeeth of Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam). He (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "…And a person who learned knowledge and taught it, and recited the Qur'aan, so Allah brought this man before Him and pointed out His Favor, which the man recognized. He is asked: "What did you do with it?" He says: 'I learned knowledge and I taught it, and I recited the Qur'aan for you.' So He (Allah) says: "You lie! In fact you learned so that it would be said of you, 'He is a scholar' and you recited the Qur'aan so that it would be said of you, 'He is a Qari' and it was said." Then it will be ordered that he be dragged upon his face into the Fire…" [Saheeh Muslim]

Let him, who is proud of his deeds, know that deeds are only accepted on the basis of two conditions, they being;

1- Sincerity (Ikhlas): The deed should be performed for the sake of Allah Alone without intending to be seen or heard by others nor attaining titles and positions.

2- Deeds should be according to the guidance of Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) and nothing beyond this criterion:
The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Indeed, the first of people upon whom the judgment will be passed on the Day of Resurrection is a man who sought martyrdom. When he appears before Allah, he is made to recognize his Favors. It is said, What did you do with it?" He says: "I fought for you until martyrdom.' It is said: 'You lie! You fought so that it would be said: "He is brave, and so it was said." Then it will be ordered that he be dragged upon his face until he is cast into Fire…" [Saheeh Muslim]

"Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers, their selves and their wealth for which there is Paradise for them…" [Soorah at-Tawbah: 111]

He who is proud of his possessions should know that the Eventual end of all possessions is with Allah, and he possesses nothing but it is a test for him. He should use them sincerely for the pleasure of Allah. How often do we find ourselves responsible for more than we are capable of maintaining? In such situations we will certainly be unjust to something. Thus, to give each thing its right one must content himself with few. Allah's Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Whoever among you arises in the morning feeling a sense of security, in good health, having his food for the day, then he has gathered what the world has to offer him." [Abu Dawood and Ibn Majah]

There was once a camel that the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) owned, it was undefeated in racing. The Muslims were proud of this camel. One day the camel lost a race, this saddened the Muslims. On this occasion, the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) informed them: "Indeed, it is the right upon Allah that nothing in this life is raised, but He lowers it." [Saheeh al-Bukharee]

Again we may quote here the remainder of the Hadeeth mentioned earlier; where on the Day of Resurrection a man who was blessed with wealth in his earthly life is asked what he did with it, and he replied: "… I neglected no opportunity which You would like this wealth to be spent, but I spent it for Your sake.' Allah says: "You lie! You spent it only so that it would be said: 'He is generous' and so it was said: "Then it will be ordered that he be dragged upon his face until he is cast into Fire." [Saheeh Muslim]

Race, Notable Lineage, Nationalism and Patriotism:
The Messenger of Allah (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) said: "Indeed Allah has removed from you the blind loyalties of Jahiliyah and the pride for ancestry. Either be a pious believer, or a miserable proud. (All of) you are children of Adam (alaihi as-salaam) and Adam (alaihi as-salaam) is from dust. Let some men cease to take pride in others who are nothing but burning coals for the Hell-Fire, it will be easier for Allah to handle them than a dung-beetle driving his nose into filth." [Abu Dawood and Ahmad]

Moreover, he (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) also said: "…whoever invites to tribalism, or aids in tribalism and is killed, he dies the death of jahiliyah (ignorant state of man before the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) … he is not of me and I am not of him." [Saheeh Muslim and An-Nisaee]

After the prohibition of Scorn, Allah explains why this act is unwise. He said, the scorned may be superior to the scorner, just as Adam (alaihi as-salaam) was superior to Iblees.

Then Allah specifically warns the women, although He had previously used the word 'people' which includes both men and women. It is to bring special attention to the women and in order to emphasize to the men that they should protect their wives and families from boasting.

Posted - Sunday, January 21, 2007  -  1:55 PM Reply with quote

I think you digressed from the topic. You material is useful, but irrelevant.

I don't see what the problem is with a female doctor explaining to the husband images of his wife. There is no purdah between husband and wife and he can see her pictures.

Posted - Monday, January 22, 2007  -  1:46 AM Reply with quote
Dear oosman,[/size=1]

You first wrote:

My own preference would be a female doctor for my wife and a male doctor for me.

Now you have written:


I don't see what the problem is with a female doctor explaining to the husband images of his wife.

and you have also written:


There is no purdah between husband and wife and he can see her pictures.

So acording to your misconcieved opinion as can be seen from your above quoted writings,

There is no purdah between husband and wife

There is no purdah between oosman and a Lady Doctor

But there is purdah between a male doctor and Oosman's wife

Posted - Tuesday, January 23, 2007  -  12:32 AM Reply with quote

I think you just want to argue. I am not going to argue with you. All I can say is what you think I said is not what I said.

Posted - Monday, February 5, 2007  -  7:44 AM Reply with quote
QUOTE of Aboosait: - Concentrate in your studies!

It is OK, but how can a student of medicine concentrate in his/her studies without not only looking but also touching various naked parts of the opposite sexes?

Posted - Monday, February 5, 2007  -  10:09 PM Reply with quote
Salam all

I am quoting my own views and experiences on the above subject. I studied in co-education in PK and qualified as a doctor in PK also from a co-education medical college.

islam is religion of intention. We studied biology and then later on in medical school, more extensive study. However I do not remember getting embarrased or feeling ashamed about what I was learning. There is a difference between reading Gray's anatomy and a dodgy magazine. The purpose and intention is different.

If you are planning and studying to be a doctor, you have to learn everything and cannot pick and choose.

Whilst you are a doctor and working as a doctor, when examining patients, it is a mechanical process, you are dealing with a problem, someone has come to you for help, it is my responsibility to help.At that point and time, I am a doctor and she is a patient and my questions, examination and explanation are all geered towards one thing, to help the patient. for that period of time the gender is not the question.

Perhaps working in UK may have influenced me to be like this way. If a female patient comes to see me and requires a detailed examination, I always suggest if she would prefer to see a lady doctor, that option is always given. When you undertake a responsibility and that too like being a doctor , you cannot pick and choose the topics and subjects you like. You come across many aspects in the field of medicine that a normal person will perhaps never contemplate doing.

My advice is that I have never felt that my work compromises my religion. I base it on intention. You touch a stranger female but with what intention?

If someone feels that they are uncomfortable or embarrased , then most respectfully, you will always have other options of subjects. There is an old saying if you cannot stand the heat do not stand by the fire.

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  1:50 AM Reply with quote
QUOTE: - Can't you just go without touching the organs?!!

Nida, nobody is eager to look or palpate the parts but the clinical information can’t be abandoned at all, if anyone is sincere to the patient. You can ask this question to any student of medicine. Remember, “None of them will favour you at all”. Without looking and palpating, NO examiner in the world, even the Muslims, will ever pass the candidate in the examination.

If you still can’t understand then ask Almighty Allah not to give you at all any chance of studying the subjects of medicine.

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  7:43 AM Reply with quote

I think "Lower your gaze...", in Soorah Noor, says it all!
How can you touch the genitals when you're not allowed to look at them?

r u sure?

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  8:21 AM Reply with quote
plz help me to understand your conclusion drawn after reading the below:

YUSUFALI: Say to the believing men that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty
YUSUFALI: And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty;

On the authority of Abu Sa'eed, the Prophet said, "A man should not look at the Awrah of another man, and the woman should not look at the Awrah of another woman…" (Muslim).

Means, believers should "lower their gaze" in order "to gurad their modesty"
so action( lower the gaze)and purpose ( gurad the modesty) of that action is also mentioned in one single verse.
The opposite of this is also true,if you see ,you may not guard your modesty.

Now apply this to the doctors and check if the puprpose of this command anywhere related to them.

I eager to know from you as how can it be allowed for a man to see other(men)private parts and same for women.

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  12:30 PM Reply with quote
salam brother Raushan

So what should men who have problems like prostate do? what should women do if they have gynae problems and they are in a place where there are no female women. Whta if they ahve to deliver. I did a locum in Newfoundland Canada, where I was the only GP for 300Kilometers. I had to deliver a baby when a women came in sudden labour.

Another scenario. I am working in UK. an Englishman comes an asks me can I drink alcohol with the tablets you have prescribed . If I am saying yes, I am not going against my religion, and propagating alcohol consumption.I am answering his query as applicable to him according to the laws of the land.

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  12:51 PM Reply with quote
wait !!!!!!!waseem,
I m waiting for Nida's response..
sometimes a reverse order of dialogue works better.
hope you read it.

Posted - Tuesday, February 6, 2007  -  3:56 PM Reply with quote
I am sorry bro. I apologise for having jumped in inappropriately

Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  12:53 PM Reply with quote
what I "mean"is very simple.
If a person is ill ,he/she should go to doctor.There is nothing wrong in it.
The person wants to get"cured"and the doctor use his "method"of treatment for the given disease.

Fasting is obligatory and no one is allowed to break it.
But if he /she is suffering from a disease which may cause harm to his/her life.He/she is allowed not to fast.
someone may rigid enough that she/he will not break the fast even if death comes to her/him/
The same is true for any obligation or commands for a muslim.

I ll not tell you the religion is easy and concession(hadya)is from Allah ,you know it better than me.

If someone wants to be rigid ,its his /her own choice.

Muslims need thousands of lady doctors and nurses everywhere to serve the cause,to save women dying during delivery,children due to malnutrition and you are saying "ameen"on not to choose medical profession.
that pained me.

This is all I wanted to tell you,nothing else.You have every right to follow as per your own thinking.

Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  2:22 PM Reply with quote

I'm NOT against medicine. I'm simply against the method employed.
You mean 'method employed' in teaching or 'method employed' in practicing?

There are dozens of methods we can figure out
Please suggest a few.

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