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oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  6:30 PM Reply with quote
marwan,

quote:

3- women want to be appreciated physically to a very large extent, which is why women nowadays do so much to look


This is another generalization without evidence. If you want to include such statements in a professional paper, then you must back up with evidence of scientifically conducted studies.

Take a look at this news story

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5391910.stm

It shows how some Muslim men are increasingly opting for plastic surgery to enhance their looks. I think this throws back your generalizations and assumption about typical men and women.

quote from the article:
quote:



He has performed so many of these operations - more than 30,000 in his career so far - that he can literally do it with his eyes shut..... Dr Navab says he only does three operations - noses, eyelids and face lifts - and his schedule is completely full the year round. And increasingly his patients are Iranian men.


Edited by: oosman on Thursday, November 09, 2006 6:30 PM
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  6:48 PM Reply with quote
Brother marwan, I totally agree with your viewpoints. And I was going to ask you a few more questions regarding the questions that these people ask, when all of a sudden, I saw oosman's post. And guess what? That's exactly what I was about to ask!
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  6:51 PM Reply with quote
quote:

marwan, you said

quote:

1- Men are thought to react more to visual-sexual stimuli, their capacity to objectify a woman's body being undeniable.


Please present some evidence to support this claim. I have mentioned before that women have just the same sexual impulses as men. One example of that I gave of Aziz's wife and prophet Yusuf (a.s). Although one example is not enough.

It is very sad that in the third world Muslim societies, because of forced veil, arranged and forced marriages, without the consent of the girl, the woman no longer feel any desire for men. It kills their sexual appetite. If we remove this social impediment, where women are more free to marry whom they want to, then we can see that women do have the same urges as men. In the so called 'decadent' western society, you can see clearly women are just as much sexual as men are, if not more.

I think your inference is based on your cultural background that women do not react the same way as men do.

Please present your evidence.


Present your evidence to contrary. My position is the consensus position, yours is the fringe position, so present your evidence.

I can tell you that what I have told you is the general wisdom that both women and men know.

It has to do with the nature of men and women. Men can have absolutely emotionless sex with 100s of women with ease, this would happen less with women. Though it is not non existent.

The only challengers of this are evolutionary psychologists who on brain scans find that the brains of men and women can react in similar ways to erotic pictures. But the follow through is not there to my knowledge, that is, testing if the client felt and equal desire to have sex afterwards etc...

one paper i found in a few minutes is this one which finds greater reaction in men, though more research is needed to test subjective responses also.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=15004563&dopt=Abstract

and for a group of such papers

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?db=pubmed&cmd=Display&itool=abstractplus&dopt=pubmed_pubmed&from_uid=15004563

and a recent paper in nature (the above first one i cited): -

http://0-www.nature.com.innopac.ucc.ie/neuro/journal/v7/n4/full/nn1208.html

quote: -

"Functional neuroimaging studies have identified a growing number of sex differences in human brain function. In addition to cognitive differences1, 2, 3, men and women also differ markedly in aspects of sexual behavior, such as the reportedly greater male interest in and response to sexually arousing visual stimuli4, 5, 6"

"In summary, the current findings suggest a possible neural basis for the greater role of visual stimuli in human male sexual behavior3, 4, 5, 6. Whether the sex differences observed here reflect inherent differences in neural function or stem from differential experience is a matter for further study."

There is other kinds of research on this I would like, but i won't spend the time now.

enjoy.

The example of Aziz is as you said just one example, and it actually goes against you, because try as she might she could not force him, whereas, if he tried to force her she would not have been able to stop him.

Next, recall that his handsomeness was obviously beyond compare, why else would the women have cut their hands when they saw him?

Is this the average man? I think not.

Your point stands refuted.

Edited by: marwan on Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:13 PM

Edited by: marwan on Thursday, November 09, 2006 7:25 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  7:18 PM Reply with quote
Marwan,

I am not going to do your homework for you. If you want to make a general statement, then you need to back it up with scientific papers. Otherwise it is just your view and that of other people with the same thinking. You have written the paper, I have not. So you should bring the evidence.

quote:

I would be fairly confident the its prevalence among women is at least 2 to 3 times that for heterosexual men.


Marwan, your are so full of conjecture. Where do you come up with these half baked numbers? Your paper is also full of assumptions and conjecture!

Ok, I do not want to debate unless you have something new to add. I have already said enough
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  11:36 PM Reply with quote
Salaam marwan

I mistakenly engaged in a debate with you thinking you were capable of intelligent discussin using FACTS FROM THE QURAN. unfortunately you like many confuse your prejudices with logical facts. Let me see if we can simplify this so that you may be able to understand:

Mona Lisa is a painting by Leonardo De Vinci- A Fact. Yes! Agreed. It is an excellent painting an opinion. Rubbish painting again an opinion. Can you see the difference. If I think the painting is rubbish then in my opinion it is Rubbish and the fact that majority may think otherwise does not make my opinion wrong. If you cannot grasp this simple principle then it is truly futile discussing anything with you.
If however you are capable of understanding the above then:

quote:

The verse should better be translate as cover your bosoms WITH/USING your head covering
.



That is your quote. Show me from the above where it states that the head should be covered. Your quote is that bosom should be covered. You seem obsessed by the word logic (it might be useful if you acquired some). Logically it could be argued that God is more interested in covering of bosom than the head covering which was the cultural practice. However it is only my opinion and not a fact-no more than your opinion is a fact.

Once you can grasp the difference between a fact and opinion then you might begin to understand the Quran as well.
regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:29 AM Reply with quote
perv1,

The verses regarding the covering are really clear as daylight. There is no need to use one's logic to extrapolate. Even if one wants to draw inferences using the logic, that can be accepted as one's interpretation. But I really do not understand why some people try to use religion to make their logical interpretation as the word of God, when it is merely their own opinion. Therefore it cannot and should not be made into Law, it is a human interpretation, and humans are prone to error. We can call it Fiqh, but not Shariah.

Salaam.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  7:27 AM Reply with quote
This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  9:10 AM Reply with quote
Assalaamu 'Alaikum everyone. Brother waseem, if I'm not mistaken, you stated somewhere that you disagreed with the opinion that head-covering is not compulsory. You quoted the words of a scholar who was talking about modesty, but that scholar said that covering the head wasn't compulsory; and you later stated that you disagreed with him. Am I correct?
So what's with the liberalism?
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  10:24 AM Reply with quote
Brother waseem, I hope you don't agree with Mr. Moiz Amjad's view. "Understanding-islam" and "studying-islam" are sister sites. Both are quite liberal, even though they try to base their opinions on logic. If I'm not mistaken, they even say that a woman can read the Holy Qur'an during menstruation, which the majority of scholars disagree with.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  11:06 AM Reply with quote
Salaam all

Can we stop bandying about the words which we have little understanding. Many on this forum seem to think calling someone a liberal negates their point.
Liberal- my understanding is someone who is tolerant of others beliefs and open minded. The opposite to this is Fascism- Which to me implies bigot, prejudiced, intolerant of others beliefs and views. So those who keep reffering others as liberals, would they then like to be adressed as fascists.
regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  12:35 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

quote:

This forum is really a waste of my time. I am trying to argue with logic and evidence and you guys will say and do anything to deny any truth that does not fit in your pathetic, disgustion and futile liberalism [/b)



I agree you are not a liberal. I am happy to call you a fascist. You fit the bill perfectly, opinionated, bigoted, disregard for the facts just your own misguided prejudices and completely closed mind. So I am in full agreement with you and will not refer to you as liberal. At least we agree on something.
regards
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!

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