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Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  7:55 PM Reply with quote
Wa 'Alaikumu-ssalaam student1! Hey brother, just relax! I forgive you. Cheers! . And brother, "pissed off" simply means "frustrated". Not all slang words are bad ya know?
So it was Zulfee whom you were supposed to be angry with, hmm? And you took out all the anger on me? That's ok. But please do tell me what's wrong with the word "pissed off". If you don't like it, I won't use it. But please tell me what's wrong with it.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  12:10 AM Reply with quote
Dear Nida-e-Khair:

Assalamo’alaikum and thanks for your prayers.

Point No. 1:

You wrote, “The thing is that the material in these courses is debated over. I don't care what the definition of Sunnah actually is. I, being a Muslim, just know that it is supposed to be followed.”

It is your personal opinion that I have no right to interfere in. But I want to ask you a couple of things regarding your opinion so that we may remove some confusions:

a) Interpretations have always been debated over even if they were from persons like Ibn Taymiah, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik or Maulana Maududi (RA). Does it mean that we should ignore all the interpretations?

b) When someone does not know what is Sunnah, how can one practice it?

If you do not wish to answer, you have a full right to hold back.

Point No. 2:

You wrote, Brother Junaid, I'm not a scholar and it's thus going to be very hard for me to prove this Hadeeth to be correct, judging it by the points that you've mentioned. So if I can't prove this Hadeeth to be correct, why don't you prove it to be wrong? I think that'll be much better.”

I have already discussed this Hadith briefly and have provided a link for the details.

Point No. 3:

You wrote, “Excuse me? I'm not referring to Surah Ahzab. I'm referring to Surah Noor.”

Earlier you wrote “In several authentic Ahaadeeth, it says that when the verse ordering women to "draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, the women of the Ansar tore part of their outer garments and covered their faces with them.”

It is Surah-e-Ehzab in which the verse is reveled that orders Muslim women to cover their heads and faces (in the extreme circumstances). (Surah-e-Ehzab, Verse: 59)

Point No. 4:

You wrote, “And just why hasn't He ordered men to do so? It's because men can never become the victims of rape by women, and therefore they need not be protected like women.”

First, I did not need an explanation. My point was when Allah T’ala has not given anyone a particular order, we have no right to impose it on anyone or criticize anyone for it. I know you haven’t imposed but you have criticized women.

Second, even if women cannot generally rape, they can attempt on a handsome man. Qur’an tells the account of Yusuf (AS) and Zulaikha (RA) in this regard.

Point No. 5:

You wrote, “I understand "normal circumstances" to mean "in the home, etc." (correct me if I'm wrong). If by "normal circumstances" you mean "not at all unless there's a threat to the woman", then may Allah guide you.”

Why do we always think what we have heard or believe in is always true? Why can’t we accept that the other person may be correct too.

By normal circumstances, I mean, “not at all unless there's a threat to the woman". Surah-e-Ehzab’s Verse 59 has a specific background. It cannot be generalized for all the Muslim women living in the normal circumstances. Great scholars of Islam have had the same viewpoint about the very verse. The ahadith that you quoted in one of your earlier postings also are in regard to this specific verse of the Qur’an and should be understood accordingly.

There are four permanent orders for Muslims in the Qur’an regarding the exposure of men and women:

1. Lowering of the gaze. (This order is for both men and women.)
2. To cover and safeguard the sex-organs. (This also is for both men and women.)
3. To keep a loose garment on the chest (in addition to the normal shirt etc.) so that it is exclusively covered. (This is specific to women alone.)
4. Not to expose the adornment. (This is also specific to women only.)

You further wrote, “It's obvious that Allah Almighty wants Hijab for the woman because she is more attractive and might fall victim to molestation.”

Women are more attractive to men only. Why do you forget that men are of attraction to women too? The covering of sex-organs is essential for both men and women. I agree that women expose their bodies and adornment but men also wear tight jeans and see through shalwars (with no under garments) and similarly shorts – why don’t we criticize them? It is because we men only think in our own perspective and have a habit of imposing everything (whether it is a Religious or any other matter) on women alone.

Point No. 6:

You wrote, “I don't think there are any views that support women not covering their heads in public.”

You say so because you have only listened to the Religious viewpoints that are famous in the sub-continent and also observed the practice of covering the head in the very culture of the sub-continent.

You further wrote, “These women fail to realise that they're appearing in front of a million men, and there are chances that they may allure over 90%. Ask men who may have seen these women on TV. Ask them if these women look attractive. Most will reply in the affirmative.”

Again you are only thinking in men’s perspective. Men also appear in front of a million women on the TV and allure them. Pick up a modern Psychology book and it will surely tell you that women are also attracted towards men when they appear charmingly in front of women.

Point No. 7:

You wrote, “This statement of yours justifies my criticism, except for the point where I called them hypocrites.”

I put forward that statement to tell that you were not back-biting. It was not to criticize any of your viewpoints.

Point No. 8:

You wrote, “Allah does know best, and therefore He also knows my intentions and the fact that I'm not trying to "impose" anything on anyone as you said.”

I am sorry if I understood you wrongly; I hope you’d forgive me.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan

Edited by: JunaidHasan on Friday, July 28, 2006 5:55 PM
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  12:21 AM Reply with quote
To all,

Don't be bothered by what Mr. Zulfee says. It is useless to waste time over his stubborn viewpoints. Whenever I have asked him to bring an argument from the Qur'an in favour of his viewpoint(s), he has had no answer to it.

Regards,

Junaid
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  5:29 AM Reply with quote
Wa 'Alaikumu-ssalaam brother Junaid.
You wrote:
Point No. 1:

You wrote, “The thing is that the material in these courses is debated over. I don't care what the definition of Sunnah actually is. I, being a Muslim, just know that it is supposed to be followed.”
It is your personal opinion that I have no right to interfere in. But I want to ask you a couple of things regarding your opinion so that we may remove some confusions:
a) Interpretations have always been debated over even if they were from persons like Ibn Taymiah, Imam Abu Hanifa, Imam Malik or Maulana Maududi (RA). Does it mean that we should ignore all the interpretations?
b) When someone does not know what is Sunnah, how can one practice it?

Well, I have good news for you. I've started with the course 'Understanding the Sunnah' because I had taken it as soon as I had registered to this site. Maybe if I study the course, I'll realise a few of my mistakes. I've also taken the course 'Introduction to Ahaadeeth'.

You wrote:
Point No. 2:

You wrote, "Brother Junaid, I'm not a scholar and it's thus going to be very hard for me to prove this Hadeeth to be correct, judging it by the points that you've mentioned. So if I can't prove this Hadeeth to be correct, why don't you prove it to be wrong? I think that'll be much better.”
I have already discussed this Hadith briefly and have provided a link for the details.

I've finally read the link. This is what it says, "....Ibn Hajar has also mentioned that according to the opinion of some Hanaabilah (followers of Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal), if removing of such hair from the face becomes a symbol of lewdness, then it would be prohibited, otherwise it would only be something of the category of what the pious should generally refrain from (Fath al-Baariy Vol.10, Pg. 378)..."

I totally agree with Mr. Moiz Amjad that plucking the facial hair is part of cleanliness if one has too bushy eyebrows or something that looks untidy. However, the words from the link that I've quoted above imply that plucking facial hair is Haraam if done for the purpose of looking more attractive. Do you agree? If you do, then please consider that this is exactly what the women of today are up to. They pluck their facial hair for the purpose of looking more attractive. I do not know their intentions, but the fact that their eyebrows are so unnaturally shaped proves that they've attempted to remove the hair in order to look attractive.

You wrote:
Point No. 3:

You wrote, “Excuse me? I'm not referring to Surah Ahzab. I'm referring to Surah Noor.”
Earlier you wrote “In several authentic Ahaadeeth, it says that when the verse ordering women to "draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, the women of the Ansar tore part of their outer garments and covered their faces with them.”
It is Surah-e-Ehzab in which the verse is reveled that orders Muslim women to cover their heads and faces (in the extreme circumstances). (Surah-e-Ehzab, Verse: 59)

I'm sorry brother, I thought you were saying that the verse that speaks of lowering the gaze is a verse of Surah Ahzaab. Now that I've read what you were referring to, I will agree that this verse was revealed for a special circumstance, i.e. to distinguish the Muslim women from slave women. I shouldn't have referred to this verse. I referred to it because I hadn't started with 'Norms of Gender Interaction'. Now that I've finished studying the latter, I'll agree that the verse hardly refers to the women of today. But you do agree that the permanent orders for the Hijab are there in Surah Noor. Most of the commentators say that "illa maa Dhahara minhaa" refers to the face and hands. I hope you agree with that. My point is that these women on the TV screens appear with part of their heads and necks uncovered, which is prohibited.

You wrote:
My point was when Allah T’ala has not given anyone a particular order, we have no right to impose it on anyone or criticize anyone for it. I know you haven’t imposed but you have criticized women.

These words of yours are in conflict with these that you wrote earlier: "Back-biting is allowed in five situations in Islam one of which is when someone has to criticize a wrong deed..." Isn't this what I'm doing? Ain't I criticising a wrong deed, which you say is allowed?

You wrote:
Second, even if women cannot generally rape, they can attempt on a handsome man.

I approve of your statement. In replying to this statement, I would also like to reply to this one: "Women are more attractive to men only. Why do you forget that men are of attraction to women too? The covering of sex-organs is essential for both men and women. I agree that women expose their bodies and adornment but men also wear tight jeans and see through shalwars (with no under garments) and similarly shorts – why don’t we criticize them? It is because we men only think in our own perspective and have a habit of imposing everything (whether it is a Religious or any other matter) on women alone."
Brother, my topic was basically on religious persons. So the question of tight jeans doesn't rise. Uptil now, I have yet to see a religious person on TV who exposes his satr. But these religious women, such as the Naat-Khuwaans that I mentioned earlier, have this habit (or whatever you'd call it) to expose their satr, i.e. necks, etc. You're talking about tight jeans; if I had wised to write about tight jeans, I would've first written about the Muslim sports-guys on TV that wear shorts, such as while playing tennis, etc. It should also be noted that I did not mention any actresses or models, because I'm discussing religious persons over here.

You wrote:
Point No. 6:

You wrote, “I don't think there are any views that support women not covering their heads in public.”
You say so because you have only listened to the Religious viewpoints that are famous in the sub-continent and also observed the practice of covering the head in the very culture of the sub-continent.

I've not listened to any such views. The only view I follow is that of the people at the time of the Prophet (SAW), and their women never uncovered their heads in public. Secondly, nowadays there is no "culture" to cover the head. All women that I see around me are hardly particular about covering their heads, so the "culture" that you're talking about hardly exists now. Also, it must be remembered brother, that I do not wish to follow any 'culture'; I merely wish to follow my 'religion'.

You wrote:
You further wrote, “These women fail to realise that they're appearing in front of a million men, and there are chances that they may allure over 90%. Ask men who may have seen these women on TV. Ask them if these women look attractive. Most will reply in the affirmative.”
Again you are only thinking in men’s perspective. Men also appear in front of a million women on the TV and allure them.

Brother, as I've stated earlier, I'm only discussing religious persons. Therefore, religious Muslim men/scholars on TV hardly allure women because they do not try to look attractive by exposing what Islam requires to be hidden of them. On the contrary, these religious ladies tend to expose that which Islam requires to be hidden of them, i.e. necks, etc., and thus they have greater chances of alluring the opposite sex. The point is that even if a male scholar appears attractive by his face, he is not to be blamed for it because it is natural of him to look that way; but some of the female scholars or religious persons are to be blamed if they look attractive because of their attempts to shape their eyebrows to a great extent, because of their red glossy lipstick, etc. (N.B. I've used the word "some" for these ladies). And it should be remembered that if these women were in full Hijab, i.e. exposing nothing except the face and hands and not applying heavy makeup, then I'd agree that it would be no blame on them if they still appeared attractive.

You wrote:
Point No. 7:

You wrote, “This statement of yours justifies my criticism, except for the point where I called them hypocrites.”
I put forward that statement to tell that you were not back-biting. It was not to criticize any of your viewpoints.

Brother, I think you misundrestood me. I wasn't trying to say that you're criticising me. You, Alhamdulillah, are a wise and logical person and I don't think you would criticise anyone, except if that person's absolutely wrong--if that were the case, you would be allowed to criticise--what I meant to say is that your saying "Back-biting is allowed in five situations in Islam one of which is when someone has to criticize a wrong deed..." justifies my criticism for these ladies, i.e. this saying of yours means that I can criticise these ladies who are wrong. That is, I can backbite and criticise these ladies as I know that they are wrong--that's what your statement above says. So my point was that when you say that criticism is allowed for a wrong deed, why do you think I am wrong in criticising these women if they are wrong? That's all that I meant to write.

You earlier wrote:
By normal circumstances, I mean, “not at all unless there's a threat to the woman". Surah-e-Ehzab’s Verse 59 has a specific background. It cannot be generalized for all the Muslim women living in the normal circumstances. Great scholars of Islam have had the same viewpoint about the very verse. The ahadith that you quoted in one of your earlier postings also are in regard to this specific verse of the Qur’an and should be understood accordingly.

"Not at all unless there's a threat to the woman" is what you agree upon, right? This means that according to you, a woman should not cover her head unless there is a threat to her of getting molested, etc. Is this what you meant? And you say that Surah Ahzaab's verse was also revealed when there was a similar threat. I agree with the latter sentence but I do not agree that a woman should not cover her head unless there are threats. This is because Surah Noor tells you to cover your head, not directly but indirectly, i.e. firsly through the fact that women at the Prophet's (SAW) time were not seen with their heads uncovered, secondly because the majority of commentators say that "illa maa Dhahara minhaa" means face and hands.
And brother, by mentioning the following, what did you mean?
"There are four permanent orders for Muslims in the Qur’an regarding the exposure of men and women:

1. To keep the eyes low. (This order is for both men and women.)
2. To cover and safeguard the sex-organs. (This also is for both men and women.)
3. To cover the chests. (This is specific to women alone.)
4. Not to expose the adornment. (This is also specific to women only.)"

By mentioning this, were you trying to say that none of the 4 points above mention the covering of hair? If yes, then I would say that none of the 4 points mention the covering of the stomach or back either. Does this mean that a woman can reveal them?

In the end I'll just say that I will consider myself to be right as long as I'm not proved wrong. This belief of mine that I'm right is not out of arrogance dear brother, it's because I have proof that I'm right. If you prove me wrong, I'll accept my mistakes without any hesitation, and I'll in fact be thankful for that. As one of the Companions (RA) once said, "May Allah have mercy on anyone who gives me my faults as a gift."

Jazaak Allah!
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  7:59 PM Reply with quote
First, it’s a pleasure to discuss things with you. I must confess that I loved your attitude that you summarized in the following way:

“In the end I'll just say that I will consider myself to be right as long as I'm not proved wrong. This belief of mine that I'm right is not out of arrogance dear brother, it's because I have proof that I'm right. If you prove me wrong, I'll accept my mistakes without any hesitation, and I'll in fact be thankful for that.”

This is how a true believer should be. Masha’allah!

Somehow, tennis has started between us. Therefore, I’d ignore the little difference of opinions between us and discuss only those point which, I think, are major. However, there is a consensus between us, as well, on a number of issues which is very nice to see.

Point A:

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “I've finally read the link.”

This is all I wanted. I mean, I wanted you to see different opinions about this very issue. Now whatever opinion you hold after seeing these different views, it’s one of your basic rights that I cannot dare to attack.

Point B:

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “They pluck their facial hair for the purpose of looking more attractive. I do not know their intentions, but…”

Oh hey, let’s leave their intentions with them. They’re responsible for their intention, good or bad, in front of the Almighty.

Point C:

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “These words of yours are in conflict with these that you wrote earlier: "Back-biting is allowed in five situations in Islam one of which is when someone has to criticize a wrong deed..." Isn't this what I'm doing? Ain't I criticising a wrong deed, which you say is allowed?”

Yes, this is what you were doing and that is why I asked you not to feel bad for it as you were only doing the permissible form of back-biting.

Later I said, “I know you haven’t imposed but you have criticized women.”

This statement has got nothing to do with the earlier one of mine. In this particular statement, I am asking you not to criticize women who do not cover their heads because it is purely a matter of interpretation of the Qur’an. From “illa-ma-zahra”, you have concluded that women should cover their heads, however, someone else may conclude that head is the part of “illa-ma-zahra” and, therefore, needed not to be covered.

Point D:

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “But these religious women, such as the Naat-Khuwaans that I mentioned earlier, have this habit (or whatever you'd call it) to expose their satr, i.e. necks, etc. You're talking about tight jeans; if I had wised to write about tight jeans, I would've first written about the Muslim sports-guys on TV that wear shorts…”

I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Now your point is clear. And please note that I already agreed to you in one of my previous postings that exposing the neck is a sin for a woman.

Point E:

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “I agree with the latter sentence but I do not agree that a woman should not cover her head unless there are threats. This is because Surah Noor tells you to cover your head, not directly but indirectly, i.e. firsly through the fact that women at the Prophet's (SAW) time were not seen with their heads uncovered, secondly because the majority of commentators say that "illa maa Dhahara minhaa" means face and hands.”

Nida-e-Khair further mentioned, “…then I would say that none of the 4 points mention the covering of the stomach or back either. Does this mean that a woman can reveal them?”

You have raised a beautiful point.

Please note that women of the Holy Prophet’s (SAW) time did not use to cover their faces in the normal circumstances. This point must not be confused with the Ahadith that come under the verse 59 of Sura-e-Ehzab. However, there was a conflict among the companions of the Prophet (SAW) on whether a woman should cover her face.

Now coming towards head, you are right that the majority of the commentators say that “illa-ma-zahra” means face, hands and feet but majority is not always authority. However, I feel that if a woman should cover her head, it is the best but it must not be seen as a compulsion. Head can also be a part of “illa-ma-zahra” because it is a part which seems naturally open. But, of course, there may be two opinions regarding this. I can never say that you are wrong if you say that it is a compulsion for a woman to cover her head because your point is in accordance with the Qur’an. However, it must also be realized that there can be another opinion in this matter. In addition, the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything about covering the head except for when a woman has to offer salah. (I mean, there are Ahadith asking women to cover their heads but only while offering their salah.)

As far as the legs, back and tummy are concerned, I think no one can say that these are naturally opened parts, therefore, “illa-ma-zahra” cannot include them.

That’s all.

Thank you.

Best wishes,

J.

Edited by: JunaidHasan on Thursday, July 13, 2006 8:01 PM
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  9:00 PM Reply with quote
Assalaamu 'Alaikum brother Junaid!
You wrote:
Somehow, tennis has started between us. Therefore, I’d ignore the little difference of opinions between us and discuss only those point which, I think, are major. However, there is a consensus between us, as well, on a number of issues which is very nice to see.

Believe me brother, I too am happy to see that you've agreed to concentrate on the major points. Since this debate b/w the both of us started, I've been waiting for these small differences to be put aside. Alhamdulillah!

You wrote:
Oh hey, let’s leave their intentions with them. They’re responsible for their intention, good or bad, in front of the Almighty.

I fully approve of your statement brother. However, I'm not too sure what you were trying to say over here. I mean, did I go wrong anywhere in my statement?

You wrote:
From “illa-ma-zahra”, you have concluded that women should cover their heads, however, someone else may conclude that head is the part of “illa-ma-zahra” and, therefore, needed not to be covered.

Brother, I agree that averyone has a personalised opinion. According to me, my opinion is correct because a deviance with it goes against common sense. I don't know, I could be wrong. You also said, "....the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything about covering the head except for when a woman has to offer salah. (I mean, there are Ahadith asking women to cover their heads but only while offering their salah.)" You're right that the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything about covering the head. Therefore, I think it's better to be on the safe side. I hope you agree. And by the way, it could be that the Prophet (SAW) would've mentioned something about the hair if only he had seen a woman with her head uncovered. The women at those times did not leave their heads uncovered. So there could be a possibility that the Prophet (SAW) never got a chance of ordering a woman to cover her head, as their heads used to be covered in front of non-mahrams. Also, there's another very important point. If the head were not part of Satr, then why would the Almighty require us women to cover it during prayers or Hajj? That's just my viewpoint which I consider to be quite justified and logical. It could be wrong.

I'm glad that our arguments are over. I was beginning to regret the initiation of this topic. I hope that if you'll reply to this post, you'll reply it regarding the matters which we agree upon, instead of the ones in conflict; though you do have a right to express your views. And brother, you wrote, "Somehow, tennis has started between us." Did you mean that you now want you start with this topic of wearing shorts, etc.? I hope I don't irritate you in questioning you too much.

Anyway, may Allah guide all of us to the straight path and may He unite our hearts as brothers and sisters in Islam. Aameen!
Jazaak Allah! I'd like to mention that I really appreciated the fact that you were so calm during the debate. I appreciated your positive attitude. It's my time to say, "This is how a true believer should be. Masha’allah!"
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Thursday, July 13, 2006  -  9:26 PM Reply with quote
Wa’alaikumassalam Nida:

Thank you for your quick response.

By tennis (hehehe), I meant, that we were throwing arguments in each other’s court like tennis players throw the tennis ball in each other’s court. That was just a joke!

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “I fully approve of your statement brother. However, I'm not too sure what you were trying to say over here. I mean, did I go wrong anywhere in my statement?”

I was only requesting you to stay quiet about their intentions as we cannot know of what is in other person’s heart.

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “You're right that the Prophet (SAW) did not say anything about covering the head. Therefore, I think it's better to be on the safe side.”

I totally agree with you that the safer way is the best way. That is why I said earlier as well that the best, for women, is to cover the head; however, it should not be seen as a compulsion.

Nida-e-Khair wrote, “And by the way, it could be that the Prophet (SAW) would've mentioned something about the hair if only he had seen a woman with her head uncovered.”

Hm, I wouldn’t agree here because the Qur’an itself could make covering the head a clear compulsion if it wanted. But, I think, Allah T’ala wanted to give a little freedom to women in this matter that is why we find no hard and fast rule about it in either the glorious Qur’an or authentic Ahadith.

Nida-e-Khair further wrote, “If the head were not part of Satr, then why would the Almighty require us women to cover it during prayers or Hajj?”

But see, women cannot cover their faces during the hajj as they cannot reveal their heads in the salah. Special manners and etiquettes for special occasions such as salah or hajj or umrah should be seen as specific.

Thank you for your compliments though I don’t think I deserved them. And also, thanks a lot for such a healthy discussion. I think you are a girl because you are more polite, appreciative and considerate. By this, I don’t mean that men do not have these qualities but, according to the best of my experience, women have an edge in such qualities.

Sincerely,

J.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 14, 2006  -  11:37 AM Reply with quote
Assalaamu 'Alaikum Brother.
I thought our debate was over, but I think it is really going on like tennis.
You wrote:
I was only requesting you to stay quiet about their intentions as we cannot know of what is in other person’s heart.

That's what I did. I myself considered the fact that I did not know their intentions. But the fact is that the way these ladies have their eyebrows unnaturally shaped, so that they look more like stickers than eyebrows, proves that they've done this for beautification. This, I think, is incorrect because they know that they're going to appear in front of a million men, so they should not try to look attractive. But then again, I don't know their intentions, meaning that there could be a possibility that they were forced into it. Or maybe they're not aware of the fact that plucking facial hair just to look beautiful, instead of trying to look clean, is unacceptable in Islam. There's always a chance of these possibilities. But I'm not speaking of the exceptional cases, whose intentions really are good. I'm speaking of only those whose intentions are to look pretty on TV---there are such kind of people, and it is they who are wrong.

You wrote:
...the Qur’an itself could make covering the head a clear compulsion if it wanted. But, I think, Allah T’ala wanted to give a little freedom to women in this matter that is why we find no hard and fast rule about it in either the glorious Qur’an or authentic Ahadith.

Brother Junaid, the exposing of necks is also not mentioned Haraam according to the Qur'an, nor according to the Ahaadeeth. But this doesn't mean that a woman can expose her neck, because "illa maa dhahara minha" does not include the neck. In the same way, it does not include the hair either. How can I say that for sure? Because the hair of a woman can be compared to the neck in attractiveness. The beauty of a woman mostly lies in her hair. So it's common sense that it would not be included in "illa maa dhahara". I'm sorry if you think I'm being stubborn over this, but I still don't see why the head should not be covered. Nevertheless, I'll agree that if a woman thinks that "illa maa dhahara" does include the hair, then even if she's going against common sense, it doesn't matter. It's her decision, and it's between her and her Lord.

You wrote:
But see, women cannot cover their faces during the hajj as they cannot reveal their heads in the salah.

I think this statement of yours actually proves that it is not compulsory to cover the face. But I don't see any way in which this statement proves that it's not obligatory to cover the head. I think I'm getting tired of this debate as it seems to get nowhere, especially this covering of the head thingy. I wish to end this topic real soon.

Lastly, you wrote:
Thank you for your compliments though I don’t think I deserved them.

Excuse me Mr. Junaid?! If you can give me compliments that I don't deserve at all, how come I can't give you compliments which you do deserve. And by the way, I think men are generally more honest, sincere and they usually possess more taqwa than women/females. I've yet to see a girl who is a greater muttaqi than any man. There may be a few exceptional cases, but they're on the other side of the world, hidden in some corner. I don't know for sure, but I think the woman of today hardly knows what she's worth, and therefore she's usually unable to please her Lord.
But anyway, it's good that you appreciate good qualities, which every Muslim should; and I wonder how long our debate is going to last. May it end soon, Inshaa'Allah.

Thankyou and Jazaak Allah.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Friday, July 14, 2006  -  6:36 PM Reply with quote
What do you mean by "neck"? There is a difference between "chest" and "neck". Neck is the part above the shoulders and below the chin. However, the word "neck" is often referred to the part of the chest where necklace is worn or the most upper part of a female shirt in general discussions. Remember that the part on which the necklace is worn is, in fact, the part of the chest, in the human body, which the Qur’an is ordering women to cover.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 15, 2006  -  7:48 AM Reply with quote
Nida:

I cannot say anything on behalf of other men but, to be honest, if attractiveness is the criterion, I can say that a woman's face, hands and feet are certainly more attractive for me as compared to her hair.

Junaid
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 15, 2006  -  3:27 PM Reply with quote
Brother Junaid, I'll have to agree that the chest does include the neck, and that when the Qur'an says "Juyoobihinna", it actually does include the neck, along with the chest. To be honest, I somehow knew that this point of mine was not valid, and now I'm regreting why I wrote it in the first place. As for your point about the woman appearing more attractive from her face, hands and feet than from her hair, I now think that there can be differences of opinion regarding this. I do not know what the majority would say about this, but what I do know is that it's still very clear from the way that the women of the Prophet's (SAW) time used to dress, that such a thing is disallowed. And why I keep on bringing up this point again and again---the point about the women at the Prophet's (SAW) time---is because I believe that if they did not do a certain thing, such as uncovering the head in public, then not only is covering the head safer for today's women, but it's also incumbent upon them. Like I said before, if the Prophet (SAW) never allowed a certain thing, neither through his sayings, nor through any of the traditions, then that very thing's avoidance should not only be held safe, but it's avoidance should be held necessary. I hope you agree. If you still don't, well then, I think that neither will I agree to your views, so either this topic should be ended, or a third person's opinion should be included. What do you say? Do you still wanna argue?

Wassalaam.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 15, 2006  -  9:20 PM Reply with quote
Ah! Can't we say that it is not necessary for a woman to cover her head but it surely is a far better and much safe thing if she does so? "Necessary" is a little harsh, I think. No??
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, July 16, 2006  -  10:50 AM Reply with quote
YOU SAID: 3. To cover the chests. (This is specific to women alone.)


Don’t misguide others the wrong translations!!.

It is cover the chest with HEAD COVERINGS!!
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, July 16, 2006  -  10:54 AM Reply with quote
quote:

YOU SAID: 3. To cover the chests. (This is specific to women alone.)



Don’t dare misguiding others the wrong translations!!.

It is cover the chest with HEAD COVERINGS!!
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Sunday, July 16, 2006  -  10:54 AM Reply with quote
quote:

YOU SAID: 3. To cover the chests. (This is specific to women alone.)



Don’t dare misguiding others the wrong translations!!.

It is cover the chest with HEAD COVERINGS!!
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Sunday, July 16, 2006  -  3:00 PM Reply with quote
Dear Zulfee:

Let the Qur'an be the judge between us. See what's written in Surah-e-Noor and you will find out who is misguiding; you or me. If you are referring to Sura-e-Ehzab, it’s specific background is already discussed.

Sincerely,

J.

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