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oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  4:22 PM Reply with quote
After reading the thread you posted a link to, I believe some people think it is logical that the Qur'an asks to cover the bosom with the head covering implying that the head must have been covered to begin with.

Such a logic is not right. The head covering was not necessarily used to cover the head. It was merely laid over some of the hair or the shoulders, and was loose. The women of that time used to wear shirts with huge necks, so their bossoms would show through the neck line. This was convenient for breast feeding mothers. The verse is inline with this interpretation that it asks the women to keep their bossoms covered with the piece of cloth called head covering.

Even in many muslim countries today where women wear 'dupatta', it is merely folded over the shoulders to cover the bossom, and not necessarily the head. Even though it is a head covering, but it is rarely used to cover the head.

It is good that you have your interpretation, but it is wrong to demand others follow your interpretation. So whoever woman wants to do the head covering, it is her personal choice, and we must respect her interpretation of the Qur'an.

You should take a look at:

http://www.headscarf.net/index2.htm
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  5:01 PM Reply with quote
salaam oosman,

I do not think my position is an opinion, but a qur'anic fact. an you have not responded to anything.

Just because some women can wear something they call a headscarf badly does not then negate the qur'anic guidance on it.

I honestly don't think you read my paper.

When you read it and have a logical and substantive response I will respond. I will not do all the work for you.

as an example. look at footnote 2 which actually responds to what you said.

quote:

Many liberal Muslims try to say that as a khimar can mean various things (refer to endnote 1 above), like a cover or anything which covers, and so they say that we should not limit it to just the meaning of veil. Hence, they say, unless we take a backward cultural interpretation of khimar, we have no reason to interpret it as a head covering. My answer to this is: the correct understanding must be derived from the context in which the word is, in this case the ayah and the Qur’an as a whole. The ayah context is something that the women would have with them, that can be drawn over their breasts, which has a predominant meaning of headscarf/ veil. The Qur’an and ayah context is of modesty and concealing the beauty of a woman. We must note also that when we look up the word khimar (خمار) in the classical dictionaries, the most obvious and foremost meaning is that of the veil/headscarf.

To say that Khimar (خمار) means table cloth or some random sheet is illogical within the language/ayah/Qur’an context above (why would women be carrying around random covers?). To say that the khimar is mentioned only as a cultural fashion with no religious significance ignores the -modesty/hiding what contributes to beauty- context as well as unnecessarily ignores the establishment of a normative practice of 1) Maintaining and using the veil and 2) Covering the breasts with it(‘s ends). Consider, instead of Allah telling the women to pull their cloaks or dresses over their breasts (i.e., hide their cleavage), hence leaving them free to wear or not wear a veil, Allah tells them to use THEIR veils to cover their breasts/cleavage (which within the liberalist context would just be an extra unnecessary bit of clothing). This has a dual function 1) It clarified for the women (Some? All?) who wore it at that time with the cleavage exposed (according their culture (Ibn Kathir)) to wrap it around so that they covered the cleavage and it clarified for all later generations that the veil should be put on the head and wrapped around below the neck to cover the breasts.


Please read also: -

quote:


(Zeenat): -


Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an* (لغة القران), by ‘Abdul Mannan‘Omar: -


“From زان, زينا, يزين… To adorn, deck. Zinatun زينة : Ornament (as apparel or jewel); Pomp. Zayyana زين : II. To adorn, prepare, deck, make a thing appear pleasing. Izzayyan ازين for Tazayyan: To be adorned.”


An important usage of this word is in the sense of something being (made) desirable, beautiful, alluring etc… Examples of this kind of usage are to be found at: -


2:212, 18:46, 28:60, 35:8, 41:25, 47:14, 48:12, 49:7… etc… in the Qur’an.


Understanding this usage of the word allows us to properly comprehend the usage of زينة in 24:31, 60, to mean that which makes the women desirable, beautiful, pleasing etc…


This will universally refer to the hair of the women too. and finally: -

quote:


* They must draw their HEAD COVERINGS around and over their bosoms.

o It is disingenuous and illogical to say that they must/can remove their head coverings to cover their bosoms because: -

1. There is no need to do so in order to fulfill the command.
2. The hair of a woman is a part of her beauty, of what makes her attractive. So it must be covered.

o It’s like saying (within the context of modesty) “I was told to cover my navel with my top… so I took off my top and wrapped it around my belly”… Illogical. But this is the position of the liberal Muslim, they say (by analogy), well Allah only said to cover the naval, so covering anything else must be a cultural thing that we can choose to do or not do.

o To say that you are not told to cover your head is also disingenuous, because if you are told to cover your bosoms with your head covering (within the context of modesty), it is taken for granted that you are covering your head, so there is no need to explicitly state it.

o The Qur’an makes the practice of the headscarf covering the head and the bosoms into a rule.

* Consider: -

o Allah nowhere explicitly says that a woman’s back must be covered by clothing.
o Allah nowhere says that ¾ of a woman’s leg cannot be exposed
o Etc…
o But they are unambiguously implied by the command to hide a woman’s beauty (and what contributes to it) and by the command to cover themselves with a Jilbab and to use the Khimar to (also) cover their bosom. So the argument that the head is not mentioned explicitly (within the context of covering beauty and the mention of the khimar (head cover)) is merely a biased tactic to avoid wearing the head cover.



And finally, when you look at lisan Al arab, for khimar (in the context of the woman)


والخِمَارُ للمرأَة، وهو النَّصِيفُ، وقيل: الخمار ما تغطي به المرأَة رأَْسها، وجمعه أَخْمِرَةٌ وخُمْرٌ وخُمُرٌ


It is clear from this that the khimar is what the woman covers her head with. This is general. The extent is then defined by Allah's rules of modesty in the Qur'an.

Just because some women wear something badly on their head and call it khimar, you cannot then ignore it usage in the Qur'an for your own liberal agenda.

I look forward to actual responses based upon logic and not whim. Please take time and effort whoever the next person who tries to defend their liberal approach against my article is.

It is a waste of my time otherwise.

salaam

ps. that link is useless, so dr. zaki says something, so what? unless he can prove it with the qur'an, his opinion means nothing to me. I have provided evidence with logic. respond to that

Edited by: marwan on Monday, November 06, 2006 5:03 PM

Edited by: marwan on Monday, November 06, 2006 5:05 PM
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  5:25 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
Salaam Junaid, you seem willing to debate the topic of the the Qur'an and the hadith. I would side with zulfee more than with you. I am willing to have a civilised debate on this issue.

Brother marwan, although you've used the word "civilised", I hope you're not going to start a fight here with Brother Junaid. That was certainly not my purpose of inviting you to this forum.

Brother oosman, I must say I'm extremely shocked to read the link that you've provided! It not only condemns the Hijab, but also the beard! Plus, the ones who wear the Hijab/beard are termed as hypocrites and fanatics in this article! What's going on here?!! Are we calling the Prophet (SAW) a fanatic?!
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  9:01 PM Reply with quote
Assalam dear Marwan,

You are merely repeating what you had posted on the other thread.

quote:

why would women be carrying around random covers?


Just because you do not understand why women would be carrying around random covers does not mean they did not carry random covers. Can you prove they did not carry random covers? Can you prove that those women actually had the head covers wrapped around their head before the verse came? From all I have read, they were merely used as an adorenment, like the 'dupatta' I mentioned. It was not used to cover the head like the modern day hijaab.

My point is simply let us adhere to what the Qur'an says. And it says to cover the bossom with the head covering. It does not say COVER THE HEAD. It was easy for Allah to say that, yet He did not. Let us not add stuff from our own.

Whether or not the head is covered with the head covering is not even discussed in the Qur'an. So why is it such an issue?

And lastly, it is the women's choice to cover the head or not. Islam requires modesty from men and women, and culture, morality and vogeu can dictate what the dress code should be. Islam does not ask us to adhere to strick dress code like the Saudis or Iranis ask for.

Edited by: oosman on Monday, November 06, 2006 9:05 PM
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  9:22 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Assalam dear Marwan,

You are merely repeating what you had posted on the other thread.

quote:

why would women be carrying around random covers?


Just because you do not understand why women would be carrying around random covers does not mean they did not carry random covers. Can you prove they did not carry random covers? Can you prove that those women actually had the head covers wrapped around their head before the verse came? From all I have read, they were merely used as an adorenment, like the 'dupatta' I mentioned. It was not used to cover the head like the modern day hijaab.

My point is simply let us adhere to what the Qur'an says. And it says to cover the bossom with the head covering. It does not say COVER THE HEAD. It was easy for Allah to say that, yet He did not. Let us not add stuff from our own.

Whether or not the head is covered with the head covering is not even discussed in the Qur'an. So why is it such an issue?

And lastly, it is the women's choice to cover the head or not. Islam requires modesty from men and women, and culture, morality and vogeu can dictate what the dress code should be. Islam does not ask us to adhere to strick dress code like the Saudis or Iranis ask for.

Edited by: oosman on Monday, November 06, 2006 9:05 PM


You have not added anything to you argument. I actually deal with what you said in endnote three ABOVE!!!!!!!!!

quote:


Can you prove that those women actually had the head covers wrapped around their head before the verse came?



quote:


From all I have read, they were merely used as an adorenment, like the 'dupatta' I mentioned



It is irrelevant how they may have worn their khimar, cleavage out or whatever. Allah revealed the correction to this. simple, end of story.

You are so in love with liberalism that you can actually believe that women in the DESERT would carry around sheets, as opposed to the much more useful headcovering that men in saudi and the gulf still wear!!!

No brother, we can not just wear what we like and yes there is a strict dress code.

Deal with it, your illogical protestations will not save your liberalism.

Again, please make a logical argument which either proves there is not headcovering or disprove my article LOGICALLY.

please, this is a very poor discussion style.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Monday, November 06, 2006 9:22 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, November 06, 2006  -  10:02 PM Reply with quote
Brother Marwan,

I have already told you simply what the Qur'an says. There is no need to repeat your argument, it only adds extra things that are not supported by the Qur'an.

Women are just as much attracted to men as men are to women. Both can have lust. Proof of that is the lust the woman had for prophet Yusuf, that she chased him and shirt got ripped.

To say that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just, because these are the attributes of Allah. Why should the women have to endure the clumsy hijab that is suffocating and blocking her view, possibly causing accidents? Why should the women be punished because men cannot control themselves? Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?

The whole thing is this hijaab business was made up by patriarchs to keep their women safe and to keep the honor of their family. The niqab/burqa etc has nothing to do with Islam.

If you have any evidence that the Qur'an, the word of Allah, asks the women to cover their heads, then please enlighten us. Otherwise do not impose your interpretation onto others.

The women have the right to wear what they want on their heads, as their interpret the Islamic injunctions. It is not the business of us men to impose upon women what they can and cannot do and to falsely justify it by saying Islam says so. If Al-Quran asks women to cover their heads, then let me see it.

Peace.

Edited by: oosman on Monday, November 06, 2006 10:07 PM
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  1:27 AM Reply with quote
Salam wa alaikom,
quote:

To say that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just, because these are the attributes of Allah. Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?

If you say there are the attributes of Allah then why are you throwing your own philosophy by saying in the quote as the following within the inverted commas?

‘To say that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just; Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?”

If you really accept these are the attributes of Allah then in that verse regarding head covering, has Allah commanded for men to cover like women?

Dear brother Marwan and sister Nida -e- Khair,

Some Muslims like oosman etc try to Islamise what they want actually for their worldly affairs, not what Islam wants. So they are the followers of their desires only. It is very simple.

If there is no clearly mentioning of head covering in Quran, there is also not clearly mentioned to cover the hips and abdomen (if the woman is pregnant). So like bare headed, should such women patrol here and there with big abdomen and hips.

Such muslims will be no where either in this world and the hereafter, if they interpret only the literal meanings of Quran to support their worldly desires deliberately. Such people must never be listened and relied.
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  1:27 AM Reply with quote
Salam wa alaikom,
quote:

To say that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just, because these are the attributes of Allah. Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?

If you say there are the attributes of Allah then why are you throwing your own philosophy by saying in the quote as the following within the inverted commas?

‘To say that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just; Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?”

If you really accept these are the attributes of Allah then in that verse regarding head covering, has Allah commanded for men to cover like women?

Dear brother Marwan and sister Nida -e- Khair,

Some Muslims like oosman etc try to Islamise what they want actually for their worldly affairs, not what Islam wants. So they are the followers of their desires only. It is very simple.

If there is no clearly mentioning of head covering in Quran, there is also not clearly mentioned to cover the hips and abdomen (if the woman is pregnant). So like bare headed, should such women patrol here and there with big abdomen and hips.

Such muslims will be no where either in this world and the hereafter, if they interpret only the literal meanings of Quran to support their worldly desires deliberately. Such people must never be listened and relied.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  2:33 AM Reply with quote
There we go again. When you guys cannot defend your argument, you start hurling personal attacks against the speaker!

If you want to cover your head, plz do it. But do not say Allah has ordered it, because Allah has not. I keep asking you to bring a verse from the Quran that says this, but instead you start attacking me!
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  4:37 AM Reply with quote
My dear brother oosman, please stop getting emotional. We're not hurling any attacks or accusations against you. We're just trying to be logical. I'm not saying that you're illogical, I'm saying that the Qur'an HAS ordered head-covering. You need proof, right? Well, I guess you still haven't read the link that brother marwan provided. It clearly explains that women have to cover their heads. And it's not just HIS interpretation; it's the majority of the scholars' interpretation too. Plus, the argument that brother marwan has given is quite logical and comprehensible.
If you're still not convinced, well then brother, you should at least consider the fact that most of the scholars also tell you that a woman must not expose any part of her body, except the face, and hands up to the wrists.
The thing is brother oosman, we've (especially brother marwan) given you clear proofs that the Qur'an does order head-covering. The only thing that lacks is a proof from you that Allah has not ordered head-covering. The Ahaadeeth do not say any such thing, nor does any tradition confirm it.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  1:17 PM Reply with quote
Salaam alaikum Nida,

Many scholars think head covering is ordered. But many scholars also think head covering is not ordered.

Please if you believe that it is ordered, it is fine - I accept your right to believe that. However you should accept other people's right to believe also. You should not force your and your scholars' interpretation onto others.

We must respect each other and their rights to believe what they think is correct and what their scholars think is correct. That is how we nourish a healthy society.

I have also posted my link, please read it:
http://www.headscarf.net/index2.htm

There are many scholars including the late Dr. Zaki Badawi who are of the opinion that Islam does not order head covering.

The onus is on you to show a clear ayat that says head covering is ordered. So far you have failed to do that - and yo can never do that because none such ayat exists.

In my opinion there is nothing wrong with covering the head, it makes the women look more modest. However it is not a required thing, that is my point. I am all for the head-covering, as long as it is not forced saying it is required. That is not true.

One more thing I would like to mention. According to Mernissi, who quotes from Al-Tabari, that the daughter of the grandson of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) refused to cover her head openly in defiance of the male imposed law. She was a great Muslim, like her father and grand father. She openly stood against the cruel rulers of her time.

Edited by: oosman on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 1:25 PM
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  1:39 PM Reply with quote
quote:

There we go again. When you guys cannot defend your argument, you start hurling personal attacks against the speaker!

If you want to cover your head, plz do it. But do not say Allah has ordered it, because Allah has not. I keep asking you to bring a verse from the Quran that says this, but instead you start attacking me!

Oosman, your vivid selfishness has no place near Allah as well as Muslims!
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  1:39 PM Reply with quote
quote:

There we go again. When you guys cannot defend your argument, you start hurling personal attacks against the speaker!

If you want to cover your head, plz do it. But do not say Allah has ordered it, because Allah has not. I keep asking you to bring a verse from the Quran that says this, but instead you start attacking me!

Oosman, your vivid selfishness has no place near Allah as well as Muslims!
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  3:05 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
The onus is on you to show a clear ayat that says head covering is ordered. So far you have failed to do that - and you can never do that because none such ayat exists.

Assalaamu 'Alaikum. Brother, how many times will I have to tell you that Brother marwan has PROVED the fact that head-covering is obligatory? And what do you mean by saying that I'm trying to impose my idea or interpretation on you? Like helloooo! You were the one who was complaining about people hurling accusations against you, right? Well, aren't you doing that? Aren't you accusing me of forcing my ideas on you? That ain't fair!
I would like to make one thing very clear: I think my interpretation is correct because it's more logical (dah!), plus, the majority of scholars agree with it. I'm not forcing you to accept this view. I respect your views and I've no right to do what you're accusing me of. If you believe that head-covering is not an obligation, even if it goes against common sense, it's up to you. It's your belief, you have every right to express it, and it's between you and your Lord.

Wallaahu A'lam.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  5:01 PM Reply with quote
Nida,

Thank you. I respect that you respect other people's views. You have never accused me or hurled accusations, I think Rakhtal started it. However one should be careful and not think that their belief is final and correct. We are all human, and there is always room for error. I will never be certain of whatever my interpretation is, if that is correct or not. This approach keeps me on guard and trying to correct myself if I am mistaken. However if I were to think like you that I am certain, then I will be a fundamentalist.

If I thought that the 'proof' by Marwan was satisfactory, then we would not be having this discussion.

If Allah (SWT) wants to order something, He clearly orders it. There is no confusion about His orders. Pork is haram, Riba is haram, etc. Covering the head is not specifically ordered, and you can interpret it any way you like. It is not shariah, and I will debate any one who tries to change the laws of Allah, unless I am otherwise convinced.

I have already given you example of Hazrat Sakina (daughter of Imam Hussain). She did not consider the head cover a requirement. She openly confronted the male elites who used the head cover as a tool in their society. Most women who were prostitutes and entertainers of the time, they did not do the head cover. All the rest of the women did it. This had become the norm. To break this culture, she openly rejected the head cover. If this was a requirement of Shariah, then she would not have done it. This is found in Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk or Tarikh al-Tabari, book by Al-Tabari, a famous Muslim historian and Quran Tafsir writer. You can do your research on Tabari.

Once again I thank you for respective other's views.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  5:12 PM Reply with quote
I have 2 simple questions for you oosman.

Show me the verse where Allah says women, specifically, can't show their legs (lower thy, or knee or calf) outside.

Show me the verse where Allah says to women, specifically, to cover their backs (lower for example) or not to show their backs outside.

these are just examples.

Because then according to your illogical thinking, the above fact means that women can show those parts.

The fact is, the deen of Allah is not about feeling what seems to be right. It is not a case of we all have our own set of beliefs and they can all be different.

Only one way is right. If you willingly choose the wrong way, which you are, you must be ready to respond to Allah when you decide to influence some girls with your thinking.

Now answer my questions above.

salaam

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