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marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  5:18 PM Reply with quote
another thing, you say.

quote:


I have already given you example of Hazrat Sakina (daughter of Imam Hussain). She did not consider the head cover a requirement. She openly confronted the male elites who used the head cover as a tool in their society. Most women who were prostitutes and entertainers of the time, they did not do the head cover. All the rest of the women did it. This had become the norm. To break this culture, she openly rejected the head cover. If this was a requirement of Shariah, then she would not have done it. This is found in Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk or Tarikh al-Tabari, book by Al-Tabari, a famous Muslim historian and Quran Tafsir writer. You can do your research on Tabari.



It is strange, and in the tradition of liberal muslims to point to historical statements, whose truth we will ignore for now, to deal with this issue of Hijab.

It is very telling that you have no ability to deal with the qur'anic evidence. Only irrelivant evidence (which your quote above is, Islamically) to suit your liberalism.

Salaam

Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 2:15 PM
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  7:00 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
However if I were to think like you that I am certain,....

Allow me to complete the above statement. It should've been, "then I would've been an arrogant fool". Brother oosman, I too wasn't comfortable with my way of writing, and so I wrote "Allah knows best" in the end, to convince myself that I wasn't being arrogant. And you know what? You're absolutely right! Even though I think that covering the head is quite logical and common-sensical, I shouldn't be thinking that it's the right thing, because Allah always knows best.
However, this ofcourse does not mean that I'm not considering the head-cover to be obligatory.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  7:16 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Nida,

The fact is there is nothing wrong with thinking you are right, as long as you are not arrogant.

That is, that you are open to evidence.

In your case, and in mine. We believe that there is sufficient evidence from the Qur'an which makes it clear the kind of dress modesty Allah wants from us. Therefore there is no reason for doubt. This means that we should be confident in our assertion of truth for our position.

The simple deen of Allah is not about doubt and uncertainty, its about definite guidance for us all.

(2:2)
This is the Scripture whereof there is no doubt, a guidance unto those who ward off (evil).
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  7:28 PM Reply with quote
Brother marwan, Assalaamu 'Alaikum. I know there's no harm in stating that I'm right, because I do have eveidence. I'm confident about my view. The only thing is that I thought I was being arrogant and trying to belittle Brother oosman, which I had no right to do; or maybe my conscience just carried me away---I don't know, I can't say anything regarding this. But one thing's for sure: Allah has ordered head-covering because it makes all the sense in the world. This is my belief, which I hope is going to turn out right in the next world.

And Allah alone knows best!
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  7:40 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Nida,

This all I will say on this,

In the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful.

103
By (the Token of) Time (through the ages),
Verily humanity is in loss,
Except those who believe and do good, and enjoin on each other truth, and enjoin on each other patience.

You are in loss unless you promote the truth. Part of promoting the truth is not being shy in saying it or fearing arrogance in preaching it. It is the guidance of Allah after all, and so it must be preached far and wide, day and night. We don't have to be very scared and sheepish about spreading the truth, recall: -

021.018
Nay! We cast the truth against the falsehood, so that it knocks out its brain, and lo! it vanishes; and woe to you for what you describe;

The truth is the weapon of choice in silencing falsehood. It must be wielded with confidence.

Though it is a good thing to watch ourselves lest we become arrogant.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 7:40 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  8:27 PM Reply with quote
To brother Marwan,

In the holy Qur'an, the book of Allah, He does not give specifics about what to cover and what to not cover - with few exceptions. However it is known to both of us that Allah desires us to be modest, and dress modestly, both male and female. That is the main message. I hope you agree with me.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  8:57 PM Reply with quote
Salaam



quote:

In the holy Qur'an, the book of Allah, He does not give specifics about what to cover and what to not cover - with few exceptions


I think this just about sums up the issue. The rest is each individuals opinion and interpertations. Certain issues in the Quran have been deliberately left open to interpertation. Because circumstances, societies change and God has given us intelligence and moral guidance to interpert certain sayings according to the situations that might exist at any given time or place.
regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  9:10 PM Reply with quote
Well said. I agree.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  9:52 PM Reply with quote
so what are you saying?

That as those things are not mentioned to be covered that it is possible not to cover them?

The Qur'an is specific where needed and in other places we are given the guidelines whose application is dependant on the era we live in.

By my brothers, clothing is just not one of those issues. It is dealt with in sufficient detail.

And the modest dress of women is not changeable with time.

You have provided no evidence to answer my paper, and so I remain correct and you remain incorrect.

That is the nature of evidence and logic.

salaam
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  11:18 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

quote:

You have provided no evidence to answer my paper, and so I remain correct and you remain incorrect.


Ok Mr Modest let look at the evidence you have provided:

quote:

They must draw their HEAD COVERINGS around and over their bosoms.


You have quite correctly stated the above and then:

quote:

It is disingenuous and illogical to say that they must/can remove their head coverings to cover their bosoms


What has this to do with the above verse. READ WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. i.e use your head covering to cover your bossoms.
IT DOES NOT SAY COVER YOUR HEAD. If you draw that inference that is all your doing interperting it according to your whims for there is nothing in the above which says cover your head.
I am no expert in clothing but exactly how do you cover your bosoms and head with the same scarf. Has it not occured to you that God considered covering the bosoms far more appropriate than the head. DO NOT CONFUSE YOUR OPINION WITH FACTS.

quote:

because: -

There is no need to do so in order to fulfill the command.

The hair of a woman is a part of her beauty, of what makes her attractive. So it must be covered.


Again your opinion not a stated fact. Indeed some may consider a covered woman as more attractive because it adds mystique to her appearence-what do you suggest then nakedness!

quote:

It’s like saying (within the context of modesty) “I was told to cover my navel with my top… so I took off my top and wrapped it around my belly”… Illogical.


And exactly which verse are you referring to here. The example is illogical and makes no sense in relation to any Quranic referrence.

quote:

But this is the position of the liberal Muslim, they say (by analogy), well Allah only said to cover the naval, so covering anything else must be a cultural thing that we can choose to do or not do.


?????????

quote:

To say that you are not told to cover your head is also disingenuous,

Why is disingenious? do you think God is incapable of not being specific?

quote:

because if you are told to cover your bosoms with your head covering (within the context of modesty), it is taken for granted that you are covering your head,


Only by you and those who like you think that God is incapable of being exact.

quote:

so there is no need to explicitly state it.


No need. Correct but not for the reason you mention. Interesting you accept that it is not explicity stated and then draw a conclusion and expect everyone to accept your conclusion as fact-very logical!


quote:

The Qur’an makes the practice of the headscarf covering the head and the bosoms into a rule.


You state that it does not mention head covering explicity but now say it is a Quranic rule. We obviousouly have different idea as to what constitutes a Quranic rule.

I think you need to be clear what is a fact and what is opinion. Your opinion (no matter how clever you think it is) does not become a Quranic fact.

Simple every day scenario. If I ask you use you bed covering to cover your dining table (let us ignore my reasons for the moment) I am not telling you to cover both but explicity told you to cover your dining table with your bed covering. If I wanted you to cover both even simpleton like me would have said so and yet we are talking about God (who never runs out of word).
I WILL STATE AGAIN YOUR OPINION IS YOUR OPINION AND NOT QURANIC FACT.

regards
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  11:50 PM Reply with quote
Marwan,

Upon your insistence, I read your paper again. In summary, I agree with prev1, that you confuse what is fact and what is your logic. When you fail to bring evidence, you use your logic. And human logic is prone to error.

Your whole argument that the head must be covered rests on one big assumption. And you have not given any evidence to corroborate this assumption.


quote:




Women are told to use their head coverings to cover over their bosoms.


This would imply that it is now covering the head and the sides of the face and has its end wrapped around her neck so that the ends of the veil cover her bosoms.





The assumption is that when the verse came to use head covering (khimar) to cover bossom, the head used to be covered by the woman. You say in your paper that it is a logical assumption.

I do not agree with this. I do not see any logic that the women of that time were walking with bossom uncovered while the head was covered! The verse to cover the bosom came because it was not properly covered. These women, out of convenience perhaps for breast feeding their babies, used to wear long open necked dresses. And Allah knows best.

The onus is on you to prove your assumption is correct - you cannot merely say it is logical. First of all, it is not logical, second to make it a proper argument, you should present evidence rather than relying on your 'logic'. When a debater does not have evidence, then he/she starts relying on logic.

Once again I iterate, the ayat came to ask them to cover their bossom, not their heads. The assumption that the head was already covered should be proved with evidence and not logic.



quote:



To say that you are not told to cover your head is also disingenuous, because if you are told to cover your bosoms with your head covering (within the context of modesty), it is taken for granted that you are covering your head, so there is no need to explicitly state it.




Again and again you make the same assumption in your paper! You say it is taken for granted. How is that taken for granted? You say there is no explicit need to say the head should be covered (because you assume it already was). If your assumption is false, then then your argument breaks down.


quote:



The Qur’an makes the practice of the headscarf covering the head and the bosoms into a rule.




Based on your assumption, you make something a rule, that you admit is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. Is that not like bidda? Allah knows best your intentions.

quote:




This is to make the woman recognizable as a Muslim woman

*

And this will be across time and cultures, so the argument that women will dress according to times or in a manner suitable to the times is false.
*

This is the command of Allah not a culturally variable tradition.





Infact it seems that it is indeed a culturally variable tradition. It seems you are not knowledgeable of the context of the verse. There were pious ladies, and there were prostitutes working in harems, owned by immoral men. The men who used to visit these brothels, used to flirt with the prostitutes. These immoral men started harassing the pious women also. The verse was revealed to clearly differentiate the pious believing women from the prostitutes, so the pious women would be left alone and not harassed. All this makes the verse more prone to a cultural interpretation. If today a Muslim woman walks down the road in niqab in America or Europe, she is more likely to be harassed, because she stands out in the crowd. Allah's verse clearly says the purpose is to prevent the woman being harassed. If the purpose is not being acheived by head covering, but rather it is causing the reverse effect, then it should be taken in a cultural and time specific manner. Allah desires ease of religion for His slaves, not harshness.

In respect to month of Ramadan, Allah says:

Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty (2.185)

Hijab should not be used as a tool to make the life of a believer difficult. If it does not serve the purpose it is intended for, then it should be used in a time and place where it does serve the purpose.

quote:



And to help decrease the chance of her being annoyed/hurt. Annoyed why? Obviously due to the men who would desire them if they saw the beauty of the women. Feminists may not like accepting this reality, but that is their problem.




You make it sound like it is the woman's fault that the man desires her lustfully. Are you blaming the woman for the man's crime?

Also you failed to mention in your paper how it is fair that given men and women both have equal sexual impulses, that only women have to go through extra steps? Are you implying Islam is not fair to women? Do not women have the same sexual desires, infact they are also attracted by handosome men. Example of Yusuf (a.s.) is there in the Quran, when Aziz's wife Zuleikha chased Yusuf (a.s.) in her desire and ripped his shirt.

I have presented my case to you. What is important is not that who is correct and who is wrong, but what is important is that we respect each other like brothers and discuss the issues peacefully.

Allah knows best.
marwan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, November 08, 2006  -  11:53 PM Reply with quote
salaam,

THANK YOU!!!

Im so glad someone took the time and effort to respond!

Now i will feel much better taking my time to respond to all your points.

When i get the chance insha Allah in the next day or so.

Thanks again perv.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:53 PM
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  4:45 AM Reply with quote
quote:

When you guys cannot defend your argument, you start hurling personal attacks against the speaker!

But the speaker like you, oosman, should have some sense!

Imposing your own allegations on others is a living evidence of your vivid selfishness. So before you are blaming other for not defending their arguments why you didn’t answer my questions already put to you which I repeat here?

1. “If there is no clearly mentioning of head covering in Quran, there is also NOT CLEARLY MENTIONED to cover the HIPS and ABDOMEN (if the woman is pregnant) and also not the LEGS etc. So like bare headed, should such women patrol here and there with big abdomen and hips and with bare legs?”

2. You said that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just; Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?” If your understanding is so selfish then in that verse regarding head covering, has Allah commanded for men to cover like women?

Answer first these questions then speak the absolutely baseless words like those in your quote quoted above.

Regarding the grand daughter of the prophet PBUH, do you know what the circumstances were at that time?
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  5:15 AM Reply with quote
here, u can see the quranic concept of oosman and his suporters.

http://www.sawf.org/newsphotos/hollywood/Jessica_Alba_MTV_awards_splashnews.jpg
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  6:47 AM Reply with quote
marwan, you said…………. If you willingly choose the wrong way, which you are, you must be ready to respond to Allah when you decide to influence some girls with your thinking.

on my pc the installed software which take photograph of every user shows that oosman is a woman with a old wound mark on the forehed.
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 09, 2006  -  6:47 AM Reply with quote
marwan, you said…………. If you willingly choose the wrong way, which you are, you must be ready to respond to Allah when you decide to influence some girls with your thinking.

on my pc the installed software which take photograph of every user shows that oosman is a woman with a old wound mark on the forehed.

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