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raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  2:00 PM Reply with quote
The Holy Qur’an denounces the sectarianism in no uncertain words;
“Cling one and all to the Rope of Allah and be not divided among yourselves..” (3:103)
“The same religion has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses and Jesus: Namely that ye should remain steadfast in Religion and make no divisions therein” (42:13)
“As for those who divide their religion and break up into sects thou hast no part in them in the least: their affair is with Allah: He will in the end tell them the truth of all that they did.” (6:159)

“It is He Who has named you Muslims both before and in this (revelation)” (22:78)

“O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves (due to the differences among authorities), refer it to Allah and His Apostle if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination.” (4:59)


Is there any room left now for sectarianism if we believe in Quran?
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, August 29, 2006  -  7:55 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

quote:

Is there any room left now for sectarianism if we believe in Quran?


Excellent. No disagreements, I hope, from anyone with the above quote.
So the question to all is if we all believe in the same Quran where do the sects arise from?
I assume sects being reffered here are predominantly: Sunnis, Shias, Whabis etc.
It would be interesting if people could highlight what the difference in each of these sects is and where it has arisen from (please kindly try to avoid lengthy replies).
If we can analyse what and from where the difference has arisen, perhaps then we can try to taskle the problem i.e. diagnosis 1st, then treatment.
regards
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 31, 2006  -  10:40 AM Reply with quote
I'm glad to see that at least a few people don't support sectarianism.
Jazaakallah.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, August 31, 2006  -  12:25 PM Reply with quote
---------------
If we can analyse what and from where the difference has arisen, perhaps then we can try to taskle the problem i.e. diagnosis 1st, then treatment.
---------
brother perv1,
Differences in opinion is very natural human quality coz they think.

one may opine these differences are solely due to hadees .
But what reason can be made for the groups that are formed on different interpretation of Holy book.

TEXT is same but we found people have taken certain meaning or translations done on the basis of their own intellect and wisdom.

wassalam
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, September 3, 2006  -  10:25 PM Reply with quote
Salaam raushan

My friend being truthful is the most important aspect of being muslim, and the most important part is to be honest to ones self.

My question was very simple: What has caused diferent sects.
Let me simplify it further in General:
Christians believe in the Bible (not the Quran), Muslims believe in the Quran. Forget about the individual interpertations.

All the Muslim sects believe in the Quran: What is that makes them diferent sects-not a really difficult question. I could provide you with the answer but I think it is important that you complete your conclusion.

quote:

one may opine these differences are solely due to hadees .
But what reason can be made for the groups that are formed on different interpretation of Holy book.


Which groups are formed as differnt interpertation. I must confess that is new to me.
If all the groups believed in the Book called The Quran only (not additional Messiahs, prophets, Messanagers or Other books) what different sects would there be even ONE EXAMPLE WOULD BE APPRECIATED.

Regards
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, September 5, 2006  -  7:49 AM Reply with quote
The groups based on the thinking of Abdullah Chakralawi , Ghulam Ahmed Parwez and Rashad khalifa.
Ahl e quran people should also be counted .
All these groups are formed on the same thinking i.e denying Hadeeth .

Do they have same teachings and have no differences among them?
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, September 5, 2006  -  6:46 PM Reply with quote
salaam raushan

quote:

The groups based on the thinking of Abdullah Chakralawi , Ghulam Ahmed Parwez and Rashad khalifa.
Ahl e quran people should also be counted .
All these groups are formed on the same thinking i.e denying Hadeeth .

Do they have same teachings and have no differences among them?



I am sorry to be so rude, but the logic is so pathetic it defies belief.
All muslims, yes all sects accept the Quran.
The people you have mentioned have not rejected the Quran. LET ME REPEAT IN CASE YOU DO NOT UNDERSTAND DO NOT REJECT THE QURAN.
There is only one Quran-yes there are differnt interpertation of verses. But the basic belief in the Quran is the same. Your ridiculous notion to compare hadith in this equation is well1
Simple example two of the biggest sects-Shia and Sunnis claim to believe in the same Quran but they actually believe in different hadiths compiled by completely different people.As far as I aware Quran is the work of only one being-GOD

It is amazing you did not have the honesty to answer this very simple question but like a politician you tried to muddy the debate when you knew that by simple answer you would contradict your corrupted version of Islam.

Concentrate on the question, you actually gave the Quranic references and answer simply why are there different sects i.e. what is it that divide them into sects.
regards
sahira

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, September 5, 2006  -  10:49 PM Reply with quote
salaam brother perv,
the differences in my opinion is very minor and silly, sunni claim they follow the sunna hence why they are called sunni yet they are different and hate wahabi, also a sect that fololows sunnah...so why to they clash i can go in debth but not tonight. shia on the other hand do not belive in sunnah as in their biggest disagreement is the caliphas, they belive the Prophet PBUH should have made ALi (rta) the first calipha as he was family. i will anser your question in full tommorrw with examples InshaAllah and it may become lenghty.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  12:08 AM Reply with quote
Actually what you are saying about shias is quite wrong. They follow the sunnah of the prophet just like the sunnis. The only difference is that they have their own imams, scholars, and muhadith with their own books. Sunnis have a different set of muhadith. Sunnis might not believe in hadith of Shias and Shias might not believe in hadith of Sunnis. Shias don't follow hadith from Aisha, the prophet's wife, or from her father Abu-Bakr. Each has their own set of hadith and what they believe is sunnah. But both believe in one God, the last prophet Muhammad, and fasting, zakat, hajj, and other fundamental pillars of the faith.

If interested, you can read in detail here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shia
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  2:55 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Is there any room left now for sectarianism if we believe in Quran?


Off course NOT but the people of this site considering themselves free of sectarianism are surely false as they are the corrupt form of Ehl e hadith.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  8:06 AM Reply with quote
why the difference among these people's groups:

Abdullah Chakralawi , Ghulam Ahmed Parwez and Rashad khalifa

when they only use Quran as a source of guidence.Arent these Quranic sects?
sahira

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  10:55 AM Reply with quote
ok brother raushan i see what your saying about shia the reason i said they dont belive in sunnah is i had a friend who is shia, she told me about having their own jammat ect, she said they dont pray taravi, in ramzaan mubbarak, they dont read sunnah prayers in namaaz only fard. They wail and beat themselves during month of maharram (which may i add as i know is forbidden in islam)erm she told me loads of other little stuff which differs them from other so called sects. regarding sunni and wahabi its very interesting as to what they differ from and i will go in detail with this i am talking of their practices which i know of. but what does shock me how imams fill peoples heads with hate regarding these two sects sunnis hate wahabis and vice versa, do you know its as bad as this that a sunni will not pray namaaz in a mosque which is known to be wahabi mosque. thats how bad things are here. i will go in detail later.
sahira

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  11:39 AM Reply with quote
ok let me try to explain the differences in practice of sunni and wahabi here in uk im talking about local people not imams. (may i add these are differences i persoanlly know from people i know of these two sects).i'll start with sunni:

majority of sunni's views are that the Prophet PBUH was not human but noor they claim he never had a shadow so he could not have been human but that he is the noor of Allah swt. they claim He PBUH can see and hear us today. they also celebrate the birth of the Prophet (eid mulad al nabi). they read dwa after salah janaaza. they mourn for 40 days and do kahtham on 4th day,15th,35th and 40th day.they do death aniversary every year of their dead ones on the day the person died.

wahabi....They dont belive the prophet can see and hear us today. they belive He PBUH is human, they dont do dwa after salah janaza. they mourn for 3 days. they dont belive in celebrating the birth of the Prophet as they say He PBUH did not practice this.

so the biggest difference here in uk between the two is regarding the Prophet PBUH. sunni claim he PBUH was such a perfect example to mankind that he was too good to be human and was made out of noor of Allah swt. and wahabo disagree saying yes he PBUH was the best example but he was human. also the second most disagreeable point is about the Prophet PBUH being able to see us and here us from his grave. sunni say he PBUH can, and wahabis say he cannot.
ok this is what i personally know as i have heard from both sides and and have reached to the conclusion this is their biggeste two differences, there are alot more minor ones but this two i have pointed out are their biggest disagreements.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  12:12 PM Reply with quote
Although almost all the Muslim Jama’ats throughout the world have some minor or serious differences (often at loggerheads), with each other, the conflicts among the followers of these two groups are more pronounced than among other groups. There are probably two main reasons for this. (i) Both of them wield a vast influence in this country besides many other countries and (ii) Commanding sway over masses, most of the followers of these two groups are uneducated.

Fatiha is the name commonly ascribed to Eissal-e-Sawaab.

IT is neither Far’z nor Wajib. Eisal-e-Sawaab (donating its Sawaab to a deceased after doing a good deed like reciting Qur’an and Darood or feeding the hungry) is only Mustahab ( a good deed which is not obligatory), according to all scholars of repute. Those who insist upon others joining in Eisaal-e-Sawaab, convert a good deed into Bid’at (making those things obligatory in Deen which were not made compulsory by Shariah). Bid’at is a grave sin. Even an extremely virtuous act can become a Bid’at by transgression. Imam Malik never put on shoes in Madina, and he always used to go out of Madina to relieve himself. It was his gesture of respect for the land, where the holy Prophet (Pbuh) once lived. This great act of devotion and love for the Prophet (Pbuh) would become a Bid’at and a sin if a group of people start insisting that walking barefoot in Madina is a necessary sign of love for the Prophet (Pbuh). On the other hand, those who oppose Eisaal-e--Sawaab also commit transgression as a number of Sahih (authentic) Hadiths explicate its importance for the benefit of the deceased at the stage of Barzakh (the transitionary stage of the deceased before the Last Day).

How can a Muslim say that the Prophet (Pbuh) was an ordinary man like us? There seems to be a communication gap between you and your friends. Prophet Muhammad (Pbuh) was a human being, as were all the other Prophets. Only a human being can become a model for the other human beings. The Qur’an expounded. “Say: If there dwelt on earth, the angels, walking about in peace and quiet, We would have sent forth to them an angel from heaven as an apostle.” (17:95)

The Prophets felt pain and hunger like other human beings. They felt tiredness after hard work. They needed sleep like others. They required consolation after the disappointments and rejections. Unless informed by Allah on special occasions, they did not know about the plots and conspiracies of their tormentors. Had angels or Gods or some other creatures come as Prophets in the garb of human beings, the people could have argued that as they were other beings in the bodies of men, they could sustain the tests and hardships of life, while it was impossible for the ordinary human beings to be righteous in the wake of such trials. In all these respects and the like, the Prophet (Pbuh) was like all the other human beings.

However, he was no ordinary man. He received the Almighty’s revelation. He was a model for all others in morals and righteousness. He was bestowed with extraordinary signs from the Lord so that the disbelievers could be warned. He was called to heavens to observe the realities of the transworld, which are Ghaib (concealed) to us. He could see and talk to the spiritual creatures that we cannot. He was given knowledge of a number of things that are Ghaib (hidden) for ordinary human beings. How can the tutor and educator to the humankind from the Lord Almighty be equated to ordinary men?

Your friends probably are referring to the following Qur’anic verse, when they say that he was a human being like us.

“Say I am but a ‘Bahsar’ (a mortal human) like yourselves (with a difference that) the inspiration has come to me.. “ (18:10)

Your friends may be referring to his likeness to us in aforesaid human needs. Nevertheless, the choice of words to describe this requires caution so as not to commit disregard to the status of Prophet-hood.

Visiting the graveyards,

is a Sunnah and the Prophet (Pbuh) recommended it to us for our remembrance of the mortality of this world and for asking forgiveness for the dead. The graves of the all the earlier Prophets are unknown to us but visiting Prophet Muhammad’s grave and offering Darood and Salaam over there, has been strongly recommended to us in Hadiths. Similarly, visiting the Mazars of other saints is very beneficial for one’s own remembrance.

What your friends must be opposing might probably be the Bid’ats committed by the ignorant on the Mazars. Circumambulation of their graves akin to Ka’abah, bowing heads in reverence to the graves or asking them to help the callers is Shirk, an unforgivable sin. Mufti Maulvi Amjad Ali Bareilavi, a famous Mufti of the Bareilavi sect, in one of his Fatwa writes. “Women are strictly forbidden to visit the graves of saints or even ordinary graves. Kissing a grave is forbidden. Circumambulation of any place except Ka’abah is not permitted in any circumstances. Prostration before a grave with the intention of paying reverence is Haram. If prostration is for worship, then the person who bows before the grave becomes ‘Kaafir’ (P.99, Vol.16, Bahaar-e-Shariat)

Maulana Ahamd Raza Khan, in his renowned work, ‘Fatawa-e-Rizvia’, has repeatedly passed the same Fatwas.

Salaam to the Prophet (Pbuh) is offered in the sermon of the Friday prayer, during the Friday prayer itself and in Dua’ after the prayer. There is no precedent of offering Salaam in congregation after the Sunnat and Nafil prayers, during the Sahaba or Taabi’een era. The Sunnah which most Sahaba followed, is to go home after the Far’z Namaz of Friday and offer Sunnat and Nafil Namaz at home. Salaam or Durood at any time is good but insisting upon others doing what the Prophet did not order or the Sahaba did not practise, amounts to a Bid’at. Please look at what Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan Bareilavi himself decreed in this regard; “After the Sunnat and Nafil prayers, on Fridays, the recitation of Fatiha or offering supplication by the Imam in congregation has not been reported anywhere. Hence this practice is avoidable.” (Maulana Ahmad Raza Khan, in “An-Nafaaesul-Maghoobah, P.46)

Kissing thumbs and taking them to the eyes, after the name of the Prophet (Pbuh) is spoken, is a gesture of love and respect of the highest order. But, once again, if a group of people adopts this practice, believing that it is binding on them, it becomes Bid’at, as it is not a part of Deen propagated by the Prophet (Pbuh) and practised by Sahaba.
sahira

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  12:44 PM Reply with quote
quote:How can a Muslim say that the Prophet (Pbuh) was an ordinary man like us?

i did not say any of the sects referred to the Prophet as ordianry please read what i have wrote, nor am i reffering to my friends when i say i know people who follow both these sects.

Quote:Your friends probably are referring to the following Qur’anic verse, when they say that he was a human being like us.

“Say I am but a ‘Bahsar’ (a mortal human) like yourselves (with a difference that) the inspiration has come to me.. “ (18:10)

yes this is the exact verse they are taking on baord and saying the Prophet PBUH was a human. however they do not say ordinary like us after all no human can compare to the apostle PBUH, their point is in debate with sunni that he PBUH was a mortal.

Quote:Visiting the graveyards,

is a Sunnah and the Prophet (Pbuh) recommended it to us for our remembrance of the mortality of this world and for asking forgiveness for the dead. The graves of the all the earlier Prophets are unknown to us but visiting Prophet Muhammad’s grave and offering Darood and Salaam over there, has been strongly recommended to us in Hadiths. Similarly, visiting the Mazars of other saints is very beneficial for one’s own remembrance.


i totally agree but some uneducated people dont just go and pray at graves of holy people but use the person in the grave as an Intermediator to ask Allah swt for duas to be accepted as they belive they are too sinful for their duas to be accepted direct.

Quote:Fatiha is the name commonly ascribed to Eissal-e-Sawaab.

i agree with your paragraph on the above it is good to read Quran ect and donate it to the deceased but you can do this all year long there should not be one day of the year (commonly on the day the deceased passed away) chosen to do these good deeds each year. i know people that have made this compulsory.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, September 6, 2006  -  10:34 PM Reply with quote
Salaam all

quote:

The only difference is that they have their own imams, scholars, and muhadith with their own books. Sunnis have a different set of muhadith. Sunnis might not believe in hadith of Shias and Shias might not believe in hadith of Sunnis. Shias don't follow hadith from Aisha, the prophet's wife, or from her father Abu-Bakr. Each has their own set of hadith and what they believe is sunnah.


I see minor differences! different books, differnt people to believe and disbelieve- yes truly minor difference.
Same rational very littel difference between Christians & Muslims. One God just differnt book and one of the groups does not believe in one of the prophets.

quote:

why the difference among these people's groups:


These are group of people not, with their own strengths and weaknesses certainly not any source of any sect or religion. What these individual have in common is that they studied the Quran and hadith in detail and rejected hadith as a source of Islam (as a source of islamic history is a differnt issue).
Different interpertations of some of the verses in the Quran is a very important and interesting topic which can be discussed in a seprate thread. However all these individuals believe in the divine message of the Quran. The sects you are trying to defend have completely different books-not same books with differnt understanding but actually different books you appear to have great dificulty (or deliberately block your mind) in understanding this crucial point

regards

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