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oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  12:01 AM Reply with quote
Dear Abinzain,

How do I read your references?
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  12:07 AM Reply with quote
J Am Psychoanal Assoc. 1991;39(2):333-62.

New York Hospital, Cornell Medical Center, White Plains 10605.

Sadomasochism, an ingredient of infantile sexuality, is an essential part of normal sexual functioning and love relations, and of the very nature of sexual excitement. Sadomasochistic elements are also present in all sexual perversions.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=1856437&dopt=Citation

------------------------------------

The Social Constituents of Sadomasochism

Martin S. Weinberg, Colin J. Williams, Charles Moser
Social Problems, Vol. 31, No. 4 (Apr., 1984) , pp. 379-389

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0037-7791(198404)31%3A4%3C379%3ATSCOS%3E2.0.CO%3B2-C

---------------------------------------------------------

I can probably look up more papers that say what sadomasochism is, but most of these papers are not free and I do not have access to them.

Loveall, I think you are in the medicine profession if I am not mistaken. Do you have access to any research papers that describe modern sadomasochism?

I would be interested to learn.
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  2:16 AM Reply with quote
Dear Abinzain,

How do I read your references?


These are the references of the research papers.
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  2:19 AM Reply with quote
Find them in the libraries. Web links are not authenticated.
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  2:58 AM Reply with quote
Give your postal address I shall send you the copies of theses papers if you have the difficulties.
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  3:22 AM Reply with quote
The weblinks I gave are to published papers by researchers. You have to buy it to view the entire paper. I just gave the link to the first page.

Regarding your papers, you can just copy some lines from the papers where it says there is something wrong with people who do sadomasochism and they are not normal people. I will take your word for it. You dont have to send the whole papers. But if you don't want to study them first and just want to send me the papers, you can mail them to 1227 Kestrel Dr, Patterson, CA, USA.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  2:46 PM Reply with quote
Oosman, if you can depend only upon the web addresses, have a look on the following, with the link given below.

1. Sadism: This is generally considered to be caused by PERSONALITY DISORDERS.

2. Fetishism, Pedophilia, Transvestitism, Exhibitionism, Voyeurism, Sadism and Masochism ARE ALL SEXUAL DEVIATIONS.

3. Sexual Sadism: A DISORDER in which a person has persistent fantasies in which sexual excitement results from inflicting psychological or physical suffering (including humiliation and terror) on a sexual partner.

http://en.mimi.hu/sexuality/sadism.html

*********************************

Like you, some people may say them the normal sexual behaviours but the consensus of the majority is on labelling them as the “Sexual Deviations” This is same as acute appendicitis in the initial catarrhal stage resolves 100% by the non-operataive treatment. It may resolve similarly again after the second attack and so on but these recurrent attacks make life of the individual miserable. Therefore the majority of the Surgeons recommend that it must be operated and removed without waiting for the second attack.

Similarly, like the example of appendicitis, we must not leave the cases of sadism and masochism etc undetected and untreated to wait for some serious mishaps in the society. Therefore they are not labelled as normal but the abnormal behaviours. They NEED the treatment to save the society and you know very well that our religion also NEVER tolerates any nuisance of any sort in the society.

Furthermore, I have mentioned in one of my postings, “A sadist may even gratify one’s sex by murdering the partner followed by tearing the body and devouring the flesh”. Can a normal person do like this?

We can also call them the psychopaths who may do all other derangements, like terrorism, murders etc in the society. As nobody can observes the sexual acts of these people (psychopaths), we do not know about this aspect of their life but only what they do in front of us i.e. terrorism, murders etc. Usually, they are actually the people who are deviant with such sexual behaviours. Shouldn’t they be labelled deviant and left untreated, if detected? It must be know that the every treatment is not with some tablets, capsules, syrups, injections or operations etc but the counselling and similar others are also the ways of the treatment.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  3:12 PM Reply with quote
Thank you Abinzain for the valuable references.

Oosman, if you are asking about the modern sadomasochism, the references of Abinzain are LATEST than those of yours. Before reaching the modern sadomasochism, it would be better to learn first the difference between a diseases, a functional disorder and a psychiatric disorder otherwise the subject is difficult to understand for the someone.
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 13, 2006  -  3:49 PM Reply with quote
what is the difference between
diseases,
a functional disorder and
a psychiatric disorder

and under which category do you classify sadomasochism?
sksamsherali

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, June 15, 2006  -  12:03 PM Reply with quote
Dear Readers,

Please read the following with open mind. Frankly speaking I am not doing any kind of debate with anyone. I simply invite the readers to read & think the followings;

Islam like all the previous religions of God, strongly condemns sexual misconduct and considers it a gross offense. See 17:32, 27:54
Islam does not only condemn sexual misconduct but it also condemns the false accusations of people with such an offense and creating and/or spreading rumors about such accusations.
God, the Most Merciful, knows that accusing innocent people with such a crime is detrimental to the society and to the spirit of the people living in such a society.
Accusations of people with sexual misconduct is as old as the history of the human race. In many societies, the law of the land is that the word of the accuser is accepted against the word of the accused.
In the USA, for example, if no proof can be established in favor of either parties, it is usually the word of the accuser against the word of the accused, while in some other societies, if the accused is of a higher social class, his/her word will be accepted instead of the accuser.
God in the Quran does not take but the side of justice and well-being of the society as a whole. The message that comes out of the Quran is that accusation of someone with sexual misconduct or spreading rumors with such accusations is a very serious matter and is not looked upon lightly by God.
God used the strongest language possible to admonish those who commit such an offense by spreading rumors and repeating accusations of sexual misconduct for which they did not have a proof. The proof here, is the personal knowledge of a proof and not just hearing about a proof.
Sura 12 (Joseph-Yousuf) and Sura 24 (Light -Al-Noor)like all the other suras of the Quran, have great lessons for all of us.
"In their history, there is a LESSON for those who possess intelligence. This is not a fabricated hadith; this (Quran) confirms all previous scriptures, and provides the details of everything. It is a beacon and mercy for those who believe." 12:111
Many of the Muslims (and non-Muslims) today who are reading the history of previous generations in the Quran are not appreciating what these stories mean or what lessons they teach. For them these stories only represent " . . . tales from the past." But God insists on reminding us with the reasons for telling us the history of previous messengers, prophets, communities and nations.
".......God thus cites the examples for the people, that they may take heed." 14:25
Let us take heed and reflect on the Quranic Justice in the case of false accusations of sexual misconduct and spreading rumors about such accusations. This issue is so important, that God explained it in detail in Sura 24 and gave us a great example of it in Sura 12. For those Muslims, who studied their Quran, they will realize that this important issue is also treated in such a way to show us in detail "How to handle the accusations of sexual misconduct in an Islamic society or community?"
The incident in Sura 24 is in reference to the false accusation of Aysha, the Prophet's wife with sexual misconduct, for which the prophet Muhammed was very upset and disturbed. God elaborated on this incident without mentioning names to teach His true believers a great lesson. Read these verses and reflect on the implications that God put in these words and these verses.
24:11-13
"A Gang among you produced a big lie. Do not think that it was bad for you, in fact it was good for you (as a lesson). Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of guilt. And the one who initiated the whole incident has incurred a terrible retribution. When you heard it, the believers should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie." You should have demanded four witnesses. If the WITNESSES were NOT PRODUCED, then they are according to God, LIARS."
God demands from His true believers before accusing anyone of sexual misconduct or spreading rumors about anyone to have a proof, or to produce four witnesses. Accusations of sexual misconduct that is carried out against anybody who denies them and without verifiable proofs, are considered by God a gross sin. The failure to produce four witnesses means this person or these persons should be considered according to God, LIARS.
"You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to God, gross." 24:15
---YOU THOUGHT IT WAS SIMPLE, WHEN IT WAS, ACCORDING TO GOD, GROSS.---
What should they do ?
24:16
"When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."
Many Muslims missed these lessons but again God reminds them in 24:17 It is spelled out clearly in this verse
24:17
"GOD ADMONISHES YOU THAT YOU SHALL NEVER DO THIS AGAIN, IF YOU ARE REALLY BELIEVERS."
...............SHALL NEVER DO IT AGAIN..........
This important lesson is usually forgotten, because many of those who claim to be Muslims fail to uphold the great teachings of the Quran specially if it inconveniences their plans of scheming and plotting against someone they do not like. They may have also looked at these stories in the Quran as "tales from the past."
Stories and history in the Quran are meant to teach us today, for our everyday life and was never meant only for the previous generations. Our generation, at this time of our life, needs this guidance and this kind of justice now as much as the previous generations needed them and even more. Only the true believers will hear and obey, while the hypocrites and disbelievers will try to find excuses not to follow the rules and commandments of God. The Quranic justice is not good enough for them, or in other words, for them, God is not enough nor His book, the Quran. Even for those who might have missed 24:17, God gave us another great lesson in 49:6,
"O you who believe, if a wicked person brings news to you, you shall first investigate, lest you commit injustice towards some people out of Ignorance, then become sorry for what you have done."
It is God's Quranic justice system that requires four witnesses to prove an accusation of sexual misconduct of a man or a woman, See 24:3-9. However, the utmost justice is represented by the fact that, if you have no witness then it is the word of the ACCUSED against the word of the ACCUSER and it is God who will then judge them and condemn the liar. WHEN THERE IS NO WITNESS, GOD DOES NOT GIVE THE JUDGMENT TO US (Humans), knowing that man is biased by nature, where hatred, prejudice, ignorance and jealousy may influence his judgment. The judgment then rests with the law of God in the Quran. A liar, being the accused or accuser, will not escape God's justice either in this life or in the Hereafter.
For those who falsely accuse women of sexual misconduct, God specified the punishment for them in this life, as well as His wrath in the Hereafter.
24:4
"Those who accuse married women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not EVER accept any testimony from them; they are wicked."
24:23
"Surely, those who falsely accuse married women who are pious believers have incurred condemnation in this life and in the Hereafter; they have incurred a horrendous retribution."
For the accusations of sexual misconduct that is exchanged between husbands and wives, God set their rule also in Sura 24.
24:6-10
"As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, then the testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth. The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying. She shall be considered innocent if she swears by GOD four times that he is a liar. The fifth oath shall incur GOD's wrath upon her if he was telling the truth. This is GOD's grace and mercy towards you. GOD is Redeemer, Most Wise." 24:6-10
God spared no words to tell us that He means every order in these verses of Sura 24.
" A sura that we reveal, and DECREE as a law. We reveal in it CLEAR revelations, that you may take heed." 24:1
"We have revealed to you clarifying revelations and examples from the past generations, and an enlightenment for the righteous." 24:34
ACCUSATIONS OF SEXUAL MISCONDUCT
AND THE MESSENGER OF GOD:

The prophets and messengers, being humans like us, had been subjected to all kinds of crimes that can be committed against a human being. They were subjected to everything from accusations of sexual misconduct to murder and anything in-between. The prophet Muhammed was verbally abused, physically assaulted and emotionally insulted by those who lived around him and could not accept his message of worshipping God alone. They even insulted his beloved wife Aysha by falsely accusing her of sexual misconduct and spreading rumors about it. As we know now these insults and accusations did not represent the weakness of the prophet Muhammed, but rather the strength of his message. People with poor issues need not be attacked because their message will fall apart by itself. People with real strong issues are like a tree full of fruits at which people throw all kinds of rocks. Nobody throws rocks at a dry fruitless tree.


History will repeat itself. When the people cannot face the issues, they try to assail the character - a game one may play in politics, but not with God. The example given to us in sura 12, is almost a reflection of what some misguided people can do and are doing these days.

A messenger of God, Joseph, was accused of sexual misconduct with his master's wife. Although he was innocent, denied the accusations and there were no witness but the accuser, he was thrown into the prison. According to the hypocrites and misguided people, Joseph would be labeled a fraud, because he was accused, convicted and jailed.

Despite that, Joseph was chosen as a messenger of God even before he was sent to the prison. God could have spared him these false accusations and the prison, but God wants to teach us a lesson. God makes it a lesson for all the generations to come, including our generation. What happened to Joseph did not change the fact that Joseph was a messenger of God and did not change his message of worshipping God alone. It enforces the fact that, accusing anyone or even convicting him and putting him in jail is no proof of wrong doing if there is no proof, no witness and as long as the accused denies the accusations.

Accusations, insults, physical abuses or murders are part of our testing, we, the human beings. We are put through these tests to have the disbelievers and the hypocrites exposed and to purify the true believers and advance them to higher ranks.

"We must test you with some fear, hunger, and loss of money, lives and crops and give good news to the steadfast." 2:155

More important is the fact that these accusations, insults or murders of the messengers, the prophets and/or the righteous people will not change the truth, or the message, because the truth will always prevail. The message will always be the same, WORSHIP GOD ALONE.

"They want to put out God's light with their mouths, but God insists upon perfecting His light, in spite of the disbelievers." 9:32.

The lessons in Sura 12 and Sura 24 cannot be disregarded except by those who refuse to believe God in His own book, the Quran. For them, to call themselves Muslims is an insult to Islam (Submission), an insult to GOD of the book and an insult to the Prophet who brought that same book.

DOES QUR’AN APPROVE CAPITAL PUNISHMENT FOR ANY FAHISH ACT?

The Prophet would never ever JUDGE but by the Book of Allah, let us look at the punishment for Zina.

“If any of your women are guilty of any FAHISH act, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way.”(Quraan 4:15)

“And as for the two who are guilty of any FAHISH act from among you, give them both a punishment; then if they repent and amend, turn aside from them; surely Allah is Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.”(Quraan 4:16)

In these Ayaat Allah is talking about ANY Fahish act, i.e. any shameful act, including adultery and fornication. In 4:15 Allah is SPECIFICALLY talking about women who commit fahish acts. Allah says to confine them to their houses until they die or Allah ordain for them some other way.

In 4:16 Allah is talking in a general sense that whoever commits a Fahish act, we must punish them, and if after that they REPENT and AMEND, we must leave them alone. This ayah rules out ANY DEATH PUNISHMENT for a crime of FAHASHI because the ayah tells us that if after punishment the criminals REPENT and AMEND, we should leave them alone. If the person is dead, he/she cannot repent or amend, and it won’t make any sense for us to leave them alone after they repent.

The punishment of death also does not make sense when we look at other ayaat of the Quraan which talk about punishments for Fahish acts.

"If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed believing Muhsinaat, they may WED believing young girls from among those whom your right hands possess. And Allah has full knowledge of your faith. You are one from another. WED them with the leave of the people of their household, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: they should be chaste, not fornicators, nor taking adulterous. When they are taken in WEDLOCK, if they commit any FAHISH act, their PUNISHMENT is HALF that of a Muhsina woman. This is for those who fear sin; but it is better for you that you practice self restrain. And Allah is Oft-forgiving, most Merciful" (Quraan 4:25)

If punishment for any fahish act had been death by stoning, then the above ayah would not make much sense, as there is NO HALF of death by stoning. Let us see another place where punishments for Fahish acts are mentioned:

“O women of the prophet! Whoever, of you commits an open Fahish act, the punishment shall be increased to her doubly; and this is easy to Allah.”(Quraan 33:30)

If the punishment for some indecent act had been stoning to death, then what would it mean to double the punishment?

So the above ayaat 33:30, 4:25 and 4:16 rule out the possibility of a death punishment for a Fahish act.

Here is the punishment that is PRESCRIBED in the Quraan for ZINA(Adultery and Fornication):

"The woman and man guilty of Zina, flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter PRESCRIBED by Allah, if you believe in Allah and the last day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment" (Quraan 24:2)

So let us now look at those hadeeth which say that the Prophet allegedly stoned adulterers. The questions need to be asked are as follows:

1. Was the Prophet COMMANDED to JUDGE by Allah’s Book?

The answer is YES.

2. Would the Prophet ever disobey Allah?

The answer is NO.

3. What is the punishment of Adultery in the Book of Allah?

The answer is 100 flogs.

4. Considering the ayaat 4:16, 4:25, and 33:30, could the punishment for ANY Fahish act be death?

The answer is NO.

5. Is stoning EVER implied in the Quraan?

The answer is NO.

What is the natural and logical conclusion from the above five. The answer is that the Prophet of Allah could NEVER disobey Allah and inflict a punishment, which could NOT be derived from the Quraan. Thus the hadeeth of stoning are fabrications.

However, some people insist on having stoning in the Law of Allah. They would go to ANY lengths to corrupt the PURE message of Allah. Not satisfied with the stories of stoning of humans in the books of hadith, they included monkeys in it also to show that somehow stoning is a “Natural” law:

Bukhari: Volume 5, Book 58, Number 188:
Narrated 'Amr bin Maimun:
“During the pre-lslamic period of ignorance I saw a she-monkey surrounded by a number of monkeys. They were all stoning it, because it had committed illegal sexual intercourse. I too, stoned it along with them.”

The questions that arise from this are:

1. Do Monkeys have Nikah?
2. What does it mean for a Monkey to commit “Zina” after being “married”?
3. How did Amr bin Maimun know that the she-monkey had committed Zina?

Is this not a desperate attempt to give stoning a Divine “Yes”? But wait, there is more. After creating the stories of the Prophet stoning people, and after creating stories about monkeys getting stoned, the people realized that the Book of Allah DOES NOT mention stoning. So they TURNED to the famous “Theory of Abrogation”, and INVENTED false Quraanic “ayaat” about stoning, and made up stories that these “ayaat” were “abrogated” and taken out of the Quraan during the TIME OF UMAR, but the RULING of stoning is valid – what a twisted mentality.

many Muslims of today would rather trust some narration, compiled many many years after the Prophet rather than the Quraan. The Quraan keeps on saying that the PRESCRIBED punishment for ZINA is 100 flogs, and that death could never be a punishment for any Fahish act, but the Muslims keep on harping that we have narration (200 after the Prophet) and thus the punishment for adultery is stoning. If someone invites them to the Quraan to settle this dispute, they call him “misguided”, “shaitaan”, “kaffir”, etc. What to be said of these people, but the following:

"Hast thou not turned thy vision to those who have been given a portion of the Book? They are invited to the Book of Allah, to settle their dispute, but a party of them Turn back and decline." (Quraan 3:23)

Such are the Ayaat of Allah, which We rehearse to you in truth: then in what HADEETH will they believe besides Allah and His Ayaat? (Quraan 45:6).

Then the Messenger will say:

“O my Lord, truly MY PEOPLE neglected the Quraan”. (Quraan 25:30).

Peace
Samsher
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006  -  12:29 AM Reply with quote
There is still one issue that is not dealt with.

Say one girl is raped. She goes to the police and says she was raped. The judge (sharia) will ask her to produce 4 witnesses that saw the act. She cannot produce the 4 witnesses.

So the judge punishes the girl with 80 lashes according to law in Quran for false accusation.

Now lets say she gets pregnant. Now the judge (sharia) says you had sex outside marriage. Now she is punished 100 lashes according to the law in Quran for out of wedlock sex. Worse she can get stoned to death.

The only thing for the girl to do is to keep quite and suffer.

What should be done in this situation?
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006  -  2:11 AM Reply with quote
Thank you dear Samserali. I agree with you 100%. In fact this is what I have been stressing all along but the Jahiliya 'moral' indignation is confined to sex alone. They are not concerned with justice or compassion but are lead by their 'Jahilya ghairat' to lynch people by accusing them of 'Karokari' without even letting them prove their innocence through a judicial process. Your blog deserves a deep study and I will come to it later after studying it thoroughly. I would like to print it also in a pamphlet form if you have no objection.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006  -  2:53 AM Reply with quote
There is still one issue that is not dealt with.
Dear Oosman, you say
"Say one girl is raped. She goes to the police and says she was raped. The judge (sharia) will ask her to produce 4 witnesses that saw the act. She cannot produce the 4 witnesses."

There are many sins greater than irregularities of sexual behaviour for which no specific punishment (Hadd) has been laid down in Quran or Sharia. For instance, usury (sood) is treated by Quran as a war against Allah and Rasool but no Hadd has been prescribed for it. There is no specific Hadd laid down for lying or gheibat (back-biting) when the latter has been considered a sin worse than Zina.

The case you quoted can be dealt with under the common law of the land as so many other cases are dealt with. The Hadd for Zina won't help her as it is well nigh impossible to bring forth four eye-witnesses of the required standard, more so, in case of a cosensual zina.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Thursday, July 06, 2006  -  2:12 PM Reply with quote
Oosman said: By his logic, if a woman is raped but cannot prove it, and she gets pregnant, then she will be found guilty of zina even if it is no fault of hers.

Your understanding is always erroneous, lamb, dull, foolish, full of flaws, nonsense, irrelevant, and ignorance based.

Zinna doesn’t mean that it is always bilateral. It may be unilateral or only one member might be responsible. In the presence of only one responsible member, you cannot exclude Zinna. If the women is innocent, we can say, ‘Zinna has be done with her’

By the article, it means that Zinna is surely confirmed (bilateral or unilateral), if an unmarried woman is found pregnant. So both or any one member is surely involved. Lator on, the woman may prove herself innocent, if she really is.

Oosman said: if a woman is raped but cannot prove it.

Why is she unable to prove it? There are many ways to prove her innocent if she really is. Ask the concerned experts, if your understanding is not erroneous, lamb, dull, foolish, full of flaws, nonsense, irrelevant, and ignorance based.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 07, 2006  -  2:00 AM Reply with quote
I wonder why 'Zina' is the most hot topic among the Muslims especially in the Land of the Pure. This only goes to confirm the findings of an international survey that the Muslims are the most sex-starved nation on the earth. Why? Perhaps because Islam which was a 'Deen e Fitrat' has been converted into a Deen of taboos (Isro ghalaal), especially in case of sex. All moral indignation (Gheirat) of the Muslims has generally got confined to sex alone. As it is the 'Zina' has become the most important topic for them instead of checking false accusation (tohmat) and 'Fahaashi', that obviously is the real purpose of Quranic injunctions in this respect which prescribe an almost impossible condition of four eye-witnesses to prove the offence of Zina as aptly described by Shamsher Ali in his detailed post heretofore.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Friday, July 07, 2006  -  9:48 AM Reply with quote
Tilawat said: I wonder why 'Zina' is the most hot topic among the Muslims especially in the Land of the Pure.



Tlawat, you have started the topic and blaming others. Why????????
Do not you know?????????

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