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tilawat

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Tuesday, May 30, 2006  -  1:27 AM Reply with quote
Zinnah (forncation) in Quran and Sunnah


Discussion is going on these days on 'Hadood Ordinance' on GEO Tv. The main objection on the said Ordinance is that it does not differetiate between 'Zina' (consensual) and 'zina -bil-jabr' (rape).
The Question is: Can we pratically differentiate between the two keeping in view the fact that sex is a life force which can confound any one not sparing the prophets even and consensuousness in sex is a purely subjective matter not subject to any objective proof?
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, May 30, 2006  -  10:42 AM Reply with quote
well I'm sorry I'm NOT able to understand the Last part of ur post. plz explain. thnx
it's obvious that Zina & Zina bil Jabr BOTH r totally Seperate things & Sharee'ah has reacted on them Differently:
Zina has the MAX Punishment of 100 whips (Koray) whereas Zina bil Jabr may have the Capital Punishment.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  1:41 AM Reply with quote
My point was if you treat 'zina' as consensual and zina as rape differently by waiving off the condition of four witnesses in the case of accusation of rape, mostly against men, how would you ward off blackmailing by unscrupulous women and whores when even Hazrat Yousaf, a prophet, had got imprisoned by Zulekha who accused him of rape attempt (vide Sura Yousaf, verses 24 and 25, et seq) .
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006  -  3:53 AM Reply with quote
I was referring to the only case of attempted rape described in the Quran, that of Hazrat Yousaf (vide Sura Yousaf, verses 24, 25). It says "She (the rapist) verily desired him (Yousaf), and he would have desired her if it had not been that he saw the argument of his lord (that is, his master's)". The rape attempter, Zulekha, ultimately got the prophet Yousaf imprisoned perhaps for resisting her attempt at rape.
My point was therefore that if you treat rape differently from zina so as to waiv off the condition of four witness and rely only on the accusaion of rape by a woman (whose guiles are great) how would you save one from black mail, especially when it becomes very rewarding as in the case of Mukhtaran Mai.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, June 03, 2006  -  1:30 PM Reply with quote
why dont we think of medical tests to confirm the charges.
I dont think our religion forbids us to use medical report as an evidence in such cases.Aren't we using fingerprints ,sniffer dogs ,drawing sketches of suspects to catch the criminals?

we are living an era where a child's parents can easily be identified through dna test and compare to this its more easier to differentiate that whether the incident of adultry was 'Zina' (consensual) or 'zina -bil-jabr' (rape).

In the case of Prophet yousuf(pbuh)the approved evidence was his torn cloth .
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, June 03, 2006  -  2:30 PM Reply with quote
DNA testing cannot tell you if it was rape or concensual. Also DNA testing cannot tell you if person X did it. It can only tell you that person X did not do it. In other words it is used to rule out suspects, and not to identify suspects as criminals.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, June 04, 2006  -  5:33 AM Reply with quote
My point is that Sharia by prescribing for witnesses of very high qualification seems obviously more interested in checking false accusation of Zina and penalizing only lewdness (Fahaashi)and not zina as such. Four witness can be available only when zina is being performed in public and the people are enjoying the show. Is it possible to find four witnesses of the required character and 'obsevation'in case of zina,more so in case of the consensual type which is normally arranged secretly except in the West. I believe it is great wisdom (Hikmat)of Sharia not to prescribe any Hadd for zina as such as in the case of many other 'Kabaair'(major sins) like lying (Kizb), gheebat (back biting), etc. etc.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, June 04, 2006  -  8:13 AM Reply with quote
dear oosman,
very informative answer from your side.
plz tell us does this dna test always rule out suspects?means it always comes negative or results in positive when it matches.
Say if a person has really done wrong ,what ll happen if DNA test is done with the samples taken as clue?
will he be also ruled out as usual ?then what is used to identify the criminal as dna test is only used to clear suspects.
http://www.rediff.com/cms/print.jsp?docpath=/news/2006/may/30kasliwal.htm
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, June 04, 2006  -  8:15 AM Reply with quote
plz read this
http://www.outlookindia.com/pti_news.asp?id=388635
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  1:10 AM Reply with quote
I doubt if DNA test can be taken as a decisive evidence in case of rape. In this connection please see an article written by me recently as reproduced hereunder:-

Hadood Ordinance on GEO TV



Hadood Ordinance is the hot topic on GEO TV these days. Some Ullema and intellectuals are shown repeatedly voicing their comments on the Ordinance, especially the Zina Ordinance, which according to them does not make any difference between consensual Zina and the rape. I think zina is zina as it is practically not possible to differentiate between different types of zina. A sexual act is inherently a mixture of enjoyment and aggressiveness which depends on individual reaction of the parties involved at various stages of the sex operation. In fact Sharia never intended to prescribe a ‘hadd’ for zina as such. It intended only to punish ‘Fahaashi’ (lewdness). The very fact that it requires four eye witnesses for proving zina shows that it wants to penalise only that zina which is committed in the public. No doubt zina is a major sin (Gunah e Kabeera) in Islam like lying (Kizb) but there are very sensible reasons (hikmat) for not prescribing ‘Hadd’ for it as for many other major sins like lying, gheebat, etc., etc. Moreover, sex behaviour is basically a matter of culture rather than a moral or a religious issue.



Interestingly, there is no woman among the commentators on the Ordinance who all appeared to be aged and feministic, expressing an overly hypocritical sympathy for the woman, implying thereby that all men are potentially rapists and the women are not averse to it.



I would like to ask the following question from these Ullemas:-



Have they not read in Qurae Hakeem the story of Hazrat Yousaf having been falsely accused of attempt to rape by a woman of Egypt and as a result got jailed?


Have they not heard the story of Ajeeba, a Kashmiri girl, who had accused a doctor of the Mayo Hospital of rape and got him jailed? She later withdrew her allegation and all this incident was treated by the Supreme Court just a hoax, making a joke of all Hadood and the common laws of the land, providing only juicy reports for the press. Paradoxically, it is the same judiciary which is treating wedding meals as a serious crime and sending poor bridegrooms to jail for entertaining their guests. They were so callous that they did not send their brides with them to deprive them of a honeymoon in jail.


Is not the woman who alleges to have been raped is confessing in the first place of having been subjected to zina and secondly accusing, repeat accusing, someone of raping her? Can confession and accusation be treated equally? Don’t they think that a woman can entice a man to have sex with her and then blackmail him by accusing him of rape, just like Zulekha of Egypt?


I would therefore request the holy ones not to insist taking zina-bil-jabr out of the ambit of Hadoodullah by targeting it as Hadood Ordinance, with an ulterior motive only to disable the strict checks and balances placed wisely on evidence against a false accusation of rape (tohmat) in case of zina as such.
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  1:23 PM Reply with quote
To raushan,

DNA test can be used to narrow down suspects and remove suspects, but it is not to be used to 100% identify the culprit.

Your DNA will be similar to your parent's DNA. If the police say they matched your DNA on the victim of a crime, it could mean that you, your brother/sister or your father/mother or your grandparents were the culprits. It gets more difficult if you have an identical twin; in that case your and your identical twin's DNA are exactly the same.

At best what the crime lab should do is rule out a suspect. So if your DNA does not match the DNA on the victim, you are not the suspect. But if it does match, then you are still a suspect, but it cannot be confirmed. Also there are other things to consider, someone could have easily planted your DNA on the victim to frame you.

That is why I said, DNA should only be used to rule out suspect.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  3:04 PM Reply with quote
thanks oosman,
itz clear now.
wassalam
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  6:16 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: - I think zina is zina as it is practically not possible to differentiate between different types of zina.

Medical examiner doesn’t feel any difficulty to know whether it is rape (Zina-bil-Jabre) or not. A complete examination of the both, from head to toe, is required. Marks of violence on the body of the male or female are the sure signs of rape (Zina-bil-Jabre) otherwise if there is no violence at all it favours the mutual consent. Due to some reason, if the female can’t resist (i.e. caught by multiple males), then the marks of violence are present on the body of the female because of the torture by the males.

In rape (Zina-bil-Jabre), the marks of violence are always found either on the body of the male or female. In the cases of children, every case is considered as rape (Zina-bil-Jabre). It is also mandatory to report medically whether the male is potent or not.

Medical report is read with the police investigation report. Police investigates the site of the rape and there are also found many evidences. Here the base is again the violence.

QUOTE: - Is it possible to find four witnesses of the required character and 'obsevation'in case of zina,more so in case of the consensual type which is normally arranged secretly except in the West. I believe it is great wisdom (Hikmat) of Sharia not to prescribe any Hadd for zina as such as in the case of many other 'Kabaair'(major sins) like lying (Kizb), gheebat (back biting), etc. etc.

I asked someone this question of the Quranic verse, 4: 15. He replied as the following. I am not sure whether he is right or not but Allah knows the best.

“Islam is the religion of peace and NEVER tolerates any nuisance in the society. So if the fornication is hidden then Allah will punish them at the day of judgement and, on contrary, if it is with the four witnesses means open then it is one of the causes of nuisance in the society. So the society or the law is given the authority by Allah to punish (24: 2). Moreover, four witnesses are meant, to avoid any undue sever allegation and the punishment”.

Edited by: Loveall on Wednesday, June 07, 2006 1:53 AM
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, June 06, 2006  -  9:07 PM Reply with quote
I do not agree partially with loveall. It is not possible to always tell by medical examination if it was forced or concensual. Some people enjoy forceful acts and do it consensually.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  1:47 AM Reply with quote
In this case marks of violence are present on the body of the female, as I have already said.


NOTE: Consult any book of Medical Jurisprudence.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  8:45 AM Reply with quote
there should be a difference between four wintnesses and four eyewitnesses.
Witnesses can prove "who"were involved and medical reports will prove "what"actually happened.

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