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oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  1:42 PM Reply with quote
loveall, what I am trying to say is marks of violence can be present if the persons involved willingly commited violence and willingly accepted violence. It might sound bizarre, who would want to receive violence. But have you heard of sadism, masochism? People in these activities enjoy hurting their partner and enjoy being hurt by their partner - in such cases it is difficult to tell whether violence was forced or was concensual. These people enjoy getting hurt.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 07, 2006  -  11:08 PM Reply with quote
Quite right dear oosman. As I said previously violence is to some extent an essential ingredient of sex. How can some violence be ruled out totally in case of arranged marriages especially at very young ages and in case of sex-slaves. Shariah does not take stock of such violence which is in case of Hallal sex. So, in my view, what is called a Hadd for Zinna should rightly be called Hadd against 'Fahaashi' and for prtection against 'tohmat' (false accusation) of Zinna.
In fact the problem is that in in the Jaahilya Gheirat culture of Pakistan all 'moral' anger is limited to sex behaviour only which is basically not a function of morality or ethics but of culture.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  6:42 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE of “oosman”: - But have you heard of sadism, masochism? People in these activities enjoy hurting their partner and enjoy being hurt by their partner - in such cases it is difficult to tell whether violence was forced or was concensual. These people enjoy getting hurt.

Rather I must now say, “Have you studied or only heard of the cases which I have not only heard and studied but seen some of the them as well?”

Regarding sadism and masochism etc it is for your knowledge that these are NOT the normal cases or the behaviours. These abnormal behaviours are one of the presentations of the underlying PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS and I don’t know the punishment, of these people, set by our religion and the Law. You must know that the sadist may even gratify one’s sex by murdering the partner followed by tearing the body and devouring the flesh.

It is not essential that the violence must be apparent in the form of obvious scratches, bruises, wounds etc but under microscope finding the cells of one partner’s skin in the collected debris of nails of the other one is also one of the evidences of the violence. There are many other methods. So in rape (zina-bil-jabr), in general, evidence of violence, on either side, has the key role.

QUOTE of “raushan”: - there should be a difference between four wintnesses and four eyewitnesses.
Witnesses can prove "who"were involved and medical reports will prove "what"actually happened.

If four eyewitnesses are available then actually there must be NO need of any medical report in the normal cases but if there is any doubt of such PSYCHIATRIC CASES (like mentioned above) they need to be ruled out by a psychiatrist or a medical board, if the party appeals.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  7:04 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: How can some violence be ruled out totally in case of arranged marriages especially at very young ages and in case of sex-slaves?

As I have already said, “In the cases of children, every case is considered as rape (Zina-bil-Jabre)” And Forensic (Medical Jurisprudence) experts have all the methods in every case. The Presumptions of non-technical people are of NO value.

Edited by: Loveall on Thursday, June 08, 2006 7:11 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, June 08, 2006  -  9:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

These abnormal behaviours are one of the presentations of the underlying PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS and I don’t know the punishment, of these people, set by our religion and the Law.


Dear loveall, you need to look at things with an open mind. What seems normal or deviant to you, might be perfectly ok and might not be a disorder at all. And the reason you do not see any punishment for it is because it is not a sin or crime. Please be careful and do not make things haram for others that Allah has allowed or is silent on.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Friday, June 09, 2006  -  10:04 AM Reply with quote
How can some violence be ruled out totally in case of arranged marriages especially at very young ages?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If you are putting an allegation on your religion, what was the age of aisha at the time of marriage with the prophet.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 09, 2006  -  5:53 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE of “oosman”: - you need to look at things with an open mind.

This is not Quran and Ahadith discussion, which every one (literate or illiterate) has the right to do. About the special subjects yours or any other one’s open mind is of NO value at all. The literature is the actual judge.

QUOTE of “oosman”: - What seems normal or deviant to you might be perfectly ok and might not be a disorder at all.

You are wrong! Don’t do the Presumptions. Do you know what is the normal sexual behaviour of humans not animals? Do you consider it a normal behaviour if a husband bites and injure his wife or if a boy friend bites his girl friend? Where is this behaviour written and said to be normal? If some people do such acts they do have some underlying HIDDEN PSYCHIATRIC disorder, which can be picked up only by the experts not the inexpert. If you consider it normal, it’s amazing.

“By the way what do you mean by a psychiatric disorders? Does it mean an insane or the individual is able to work in an office?”

It must also be known that hyper-sexuality is one of the important features of some psychiatric disorders. They are worst than the animals.

Sadism or masochism etc are NOT normal sexual behaviours. If you consider normal, produce the reference. POLICE INVESTIGATION report is also of value in the context of which the medical report is read.

After, fulfilling the requirements, you need consulting any book of Forensic medicine and Psychiatry. Anyone may be AGGRESSIVE in sex but provide the reference of the books to favour your syllogism. This is the aggression which needs to be ruled out for which I have already mentioned in my previous post. If you ask me about the reference you can see any textbook of Forensic medicine and Psychiatry.


QUOTE of “oosman”: - And the reason you do not see any punishment for it is because it is not a sin or crime.

Yes if the PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS is diagnosed.

QUOTE of “oosman”: - Please be careful and do not make things haram for others that Allah has allowed or is silent on.

What do you mean here? We are not discussing what is Haram or Halal? The subject is the violence. If you have considered something Haram in the subconscious, expel it out now and open a new forum for the subject (regarding what you want to know Haram or Halal).

NOTE: If you do NOT know the subject, have NOT seen any case or have NOT ever gone to any court for helping the process of decision, keep quiet. These are the special subjects not Quran and Ahadith, which every one has the right to discuss. On the other hand, if you know the things, have seen any case or have faced the discussions with the lawyers and the judges during hearings in the courts, come on with the references.
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, June 09, 2006  -  7:56 PM Reply with quote
Dear loveall,

I do not know where you live, but where I live, many things are different, and many things are considered normal - that you call deviant or disorder. Psychiatrists now regard sadism and masochism not as disorders, but only as disorders when associated with other problems such as a personality disorder.

I asked you to explore with an open mind, and not to limit yourself in your own sphere, culture and space. Look outside your bubble.

There is no need to get so angry. Be patient and calm. I do not agree with your doctrine and I do not want to argue with you.

Salaam
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  2:37 AM Reply with quote
Zulfi dear, you say
"If you are putting an allegation on your religion, what was the age of aisha at the time of marriage with the prophet."
No, not at all. Rather I am of the view that Islam, being a 'Deene Fitrat' has dealt with sex most realistically. In western culture sex even with one's wife against her will may be treated as a crime. But in eastern culture where young virgin girls who have not experienced sex before, are married with young boys, hot with sex urge, without sometimes even having seen each other, some kind of aggressiveness does occur, which is not treated as a crime. A story of a young dumb girl is often related as a joke. She felt very happy being married when they put gold ornaments on her but after passing a night with her husband she experienced something which made her throw away her ornaments. Such a situation is not imaginable in the western culture where boys and girls both get initiated to sex before marriage.

Your insinuation is very uncalled for to say the least. Sex in my view is a matter of culture and has nothing to do with religion or ethics. So no question of any allegation. I don't believe Ummulmomineen Hazrat Aisha was married at a very young age as some traditions say.
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  12:13 PM Reply with quote
tilawat,

what you are talking about as description of eastern cultures, especially arab and south asian culture - it appears like zulm.

quote:

In western culture sex even with one's wife against her will may be treated as a crime.


Even in Islamic perspective, a man may not force himself on his spouse - it is zulm. It is only ignorant people in our cultures that justify this horrible deed in the name of Islam. Islam is a religion of mercy, not of zulm.

It is a man's right to be with his spouse, but if the spouse is unwilling, then man cannot rape her.

Abdullah-Ibn-Abbas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdullah_ibn_Abbas) used to be so fearful of this matter that he would not complain about anything to his wife, even if it was his right to demand something from her.

We have an excellent example in our prophet and his companions. Let us follow that and not rationalize wrong actions with our religion.

Edited by: oosman on Saturday, June 10, 2006 12:22 PM
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  2:20 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE of oosman: - Psychiatrists now regard sadism and masochism not as disorders. I asked you to explore with an open mind, and not to limit yourself in your own sphere, culture and space. Look outside your bubble. There is no need to get so angry. Be patient and calm. I do not agree with your doctrine and I do not want to argue with you.

PLEASE GIVE THE REFERENCE IF YOU ARE RIGHT.

I have asked for the reference only, nothing else.

Becoming so overconfident, if the non-technical people do like this how they use to behave in their technical knowledge if they have any? They must actually present their presumptions to the required places, if they do not get their own thoughts thrown into a huge dustbin.
Zulfee

USA
Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006  -  3:36 PM Reply with quote
actually they are the frustratted people and they compensate their frustrations by finding the facilities from anywhere.
oosman

USA
Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006  -  9:53 PM Reply with quote
Dear loveall,

I could probably spend a couple of hours trying to find research papers and dig out what they say about sadomasochism. But you could do the same if you are honestly seeking the truth (which I think you are). In the west sadomasochism is not looked upon as a mental disease, I have never heard or read in any paper that is a disease. Perhaps in asian cultures they thing it is deviant behavior.

If you can find out in our religion anything against it, or if you can find any research paper saying it is deviant, then I would be most interested in learning more. Can you provide any references?
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006  -  1:21 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE of “oosman”: - In the west sadomasochism is not looked upon as a mental disease; I have never heard or read in any paper that is a disease.

I never also called it a disease but “either called an abnormal sexual behaviour (NOT a normal sexual behaviour) or one of the presentations of the underlying PSYCHIATRIC DISORDERS”. You must know that such abnormal behaviours or the psychiatric disorders are NOT the diseases. It must be known that the meaning of the diseses is different for a layman and the technical man. Now find please yourself the “Difference between a disease, functional disorder and a psychiatric disorder”

Psychiatric disorders are of two types; Neurotic disorders (e.g. anxiety, depression, phobias, Obsessive compulsive disorders and sexual deviations etc) and Psychotic disorders (e.g. manic depressive psychosis and Schizophrenia etc). Remember, all theses disorders are not called diseases and why they not called diseases, open the books and find yourself. This is basic thing. That’s why I suggested to fulfil the requirement first then try to know the special things.

QUOTE of “oosman”: - Perhaps in asian cultures they thing it is deviant behavior.

It must be noted that the medical knowledge is same weather it is West or East. In East people read the same Western books and the research papers. Do you know that the people of East also go to the West for the Exams purposes and appear before the Western examiners?

QUOTE of “oosman”: - I could probably spend a couple of hours trying to find research papers and dig out what they say about sadomasochism.

Please name the research papers and books, which you have seen? Note that every research paper and book present in the Western libraries are also present in the Eastern Libraries.

QUOTE of “oosman”: …………… if you can find any research paper saying it is deviant, then I would be most interested in learning more. Can you provide any references?

As mentioned above, it is not called a disease but the “Sexual deviations” or the abnormal Sexual Behaviours.

Regarding the reference please tell me as above, “which research papers and books have you seen?” otherwise any text book of Medical Jurisprudence or Psychiatry will give you the answer that “Sadism, Masochism are NOT the normal sexual behaviours” Open the book, see the chapter of “Sexual Offences” the under the heading of “Sexual deviations”.

QUOTE of “oosman”: - If you can find out in our religion anything against it…………… then I would be most interested in learning more?

Regarding the religion I have already said in one of my postings, “I don’t know about any punishment, of these people, set by our religion and the Law”

BUT if you really want to know the reaction of the religion, ask yourself as the below.
[Note that we are ruling out the sexual behaviour (whether the sexual aggression of any type is normal or abnormal?) regardless of the mode of sex (lawful or unlawful) in the light of the religion, as you required. In the light of religion if such sex with wife is not considered as normal or lawful why not in the form of Zina etc]

Recently I created a Forum, “Sexual Behaviour” in the Discussion forum at the following link:

http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=1938&lang=&forumid=1

where you proposed “Divorce”, which is a very strict decision, due to such a sexual behaviour of the husbands. Why don’t you solace and satisfy that woman by saying that such a aggressive sexual behaviour of her husband is normal not abnormal or deviant. If this awkward behaviour is normal then “Why Divorce”. Why is so much contradiction between the statements of yours, not because you know that no body is looking at any other aspect of your statements?

NOTE: How can I make understand a person who does not know even the basic things e.g. the difference between a disease, a functional disorder and a psychiatric disorder? That’s why I suggested to fulfil the requirement first then try to know the special things.
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006  -  2:26 PM Reply with quote
All that what you said is fine, but you are talking about something else and I am talking about something else.

You are talking about aggressive abusive behaviour of husband in doing zulm on his spouse without her consent. I am not talking about that at all.

Again I ask you, can you please provide reference that sadomasochism is deviant behavior or there is anything wrong with it legally?
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006  -  3:12 PM Reply with quote
Salam-o-alaekom

Here are a few of the references, which reveal Sadism, masochism, fetishism, etc all are not normal sex behaviours but the sexual deviations or abnormal sex behaviours.


1. Baffis V, Shrier I, Sherker AH, Szilagyi A: Sexual offences, JB Medol 1999 Nov 2; 131(9):


2. Balfour HH Jr: A statistical analysis of psychosexual disorders. N Engl J Psych 2001 Apr 22; 340(16): 1255-68.


3. Butii M, Esteban R: Entecavire, Sexual deviations and the crimes. J Psych 2003; 39 Suppl 1: S139-42.


4. Dusheiko G, Barness E, Webster G, Whalley S: The science of human sex, J Psych 2005 Aug; 47(2): 159-61.

5. Muriell P, Garciapina T, Perez-Alvarez V, et al. Human sex and the gonads development. Journal of Applied Human sex. 2001; 12(6): 439-442.

6. Liu GT. Pharmacological actions of various drugs on Human sex. Chinese Medical Journal.1989; 102(10): 740-749.

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