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aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 06, 2005  -  12:15 AM Reply with quote
If He is the creator. He obviously was not created. He began the begining!
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 08, 2005  -  8:21 PM Reply with quote
ultimately U gave the same answer.
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 09, 2005  -  1:12 AM Reply with quote
It has to be same!
Don't you think so?
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 26, 2005  -  8:10 PM Reply with quote
You said…….Don't you think so?

Yes!
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  6:59 AM Reply with quote
"The idea of God is proof of His existance"

The presence of an idea, that I should have 10 rupees in my pocket, proves that I actually have 10 rupees in my pocket?

Regards,
Salman
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  10:05 AM Reply with quote
AOA

This is an extremely important topic which appears to have got side tracked. However it would be good to have a honest discussion without any point scoring. For me it has been the most difficult question to answer esp when discussing with those who do not believe in existance of God. Here are some simple points perhaps we could collectively discuss:

(1) God is all powerful....why not just reveal himself in a way that there is no doubt left in any ones mind....i.e for Muslims today why send a messanger 1500yrs ago whose exact message is even being disputed

(2)Why did God create us?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  11:31 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-God is all powerful....why not just reveal himself in a way that there is no doubt left in any ones mind....

If He done so then there was no test remain for us.

Quote:- for Muslims today why send a messanger 1500yrs ago whose exact message is even being disputed.

Firstly The last Messenger is for all human beings and not just for Muslims.Secondly it has to be disputed.If today when we have the all technology in our help so could we record all the words of a person who is a very busy man.And after he died won't there any dispute of similer nature?
ummiman

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  12:16 PM Reply with quote
Seeing is not believeing - as many people would like to think. Just because you can not see me typing, does that mean that i do not exist? look around you. look at yourself - you yourself are a sign of the creation of Allah (swt).

"Bethink of him who had an argument with Ibraheem about his Lord, because Allah had given him the kingdom; how when Ibraheem said ‘My Lord is He Who gives life and causes death’, he answered: ‘I give life and cause death.’ Ibraheem said: ‘Allah causes the sun to rise in the East, so do you cause it to come up from the West’.

Thus was the disbeliever confounded (abashed).’

A confirmation and a reminder to the believers and a challenge, a huge and impossible challenge to the unbelievers and those who associate partners with Alláh. And that is how the closing chapters of Surat Al-Waqia’a can be described. In the same vein, Ali bin Abi Taalib, may Allah be pleased with him, was asked: ‘ Have you seen your Lord (Allah)? His short but concise answer confounded his questioner:‘ How could I worship what I do not see?’ He went on to explain that what the eyes fail to see is seen by the intellect, the heart of man.

Although the existence of Allah requires no proof simply because the existence of everything else is proved in reference to Him, The Most High, to make matters easy for the human intellect to comprehend, man is asked to contemplate his own creation and all that is in the Universe.

Edited by: ummiman on Saturday, February 10, 2007 12:24 PM
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  12:30 PM Reply with quote
quote:

AOA

Here are some simple points perhaps we could collectively discuss:

(1) God is all powerful....why not just reveal himself in a way that there is no doubt left in any ones mind....i.e for Muslims today why send a messanger 1500yrs ago whose exact message is even being disputed

(2)Why did God create us?


Its childish now to reject anything on the basis of "unseen".
For blinds nothing exists,if one agree with this theory .


God is "unseen",Prophet "passed away" long back.
we have ONE thing with us which claims its the word of "GOD"and revealed to "PROPHET".
We are lucky that such a big clue is with us.
This book called Quran can only answer, due to its extra ordinary claims.
Read it critically,check it,test it on all the modern standards and try to reply why its not from GOD.

and if not then believe its claims till someone refute.This is scientific ,isnt it?

wassalam
ummiman

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  12:45 PM Reply with quote
"I created not the Jinn and the mankind (for nohing) but that they must worship Me." (51:56)

Some may then question But why? If you say, just to worship Him, another question comes up: Why to worship Him? What does He want to do with worship anyway? Someone may say to know Him, i.e. we worship Him to know Him. Rather, it should be the other way around: We must know Allah in order to worship Him. This has been confirmed by many Qur’anic verses, one of them is the following:

Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, ...(47:19)

You see here that knowledge is highly stressed upon, for man to know about his Lord. Allah also says:
There is no god but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3:18)

So, you see, knowledge gives rise to strong faith and true awareness about the Divine Entity.
ummiman

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  12:55 PM Reply with quote
They say: "Why is not an angel sent down to him?" If we did send down an angel, the matter would be settled at once, and no respite would be granted them. (6:8)

If We had made it an angel, We should have sent him as a man, and We should certainly have caused them confusion in a matter which they have already covered with confusion. (6:9)

Mocked were (many) messengers before thee; but their scoffers were hemmed in by the thing that they mocked. (6:10)

Say: "Travel through the earth and see what was the end of those who rejected Truth." (6:11)

Say: To whom belongs what is in the heavens and the earth? Say: To Allah; He has ordained mercy on Himself; most certainly He will gather you on the resurrection day-- there is no doubt about it. (As for) those who have lost their souls, they will not believe. (6:12)
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  1:27 PM Reply with quote
quote:

God is all powerful....why not just reveal himself in a way that there is no doubt left in any ones mind....?


This is nothing but a fallacy.

The hindu god(krishna)shown him in full in the battlefield as per Gita.
so what,do you think hindus are a firm beliver in the god?

No one can satisfy his opponent until the amount of proof is determined in advance.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  1:42 PM Reply with quote
Salaam all

It is difficult to respond three of you when I am not sure what your points really are but will try:

Usmani....Why exactly does God want to test us. What purpose will that serve. Since we are Gods creation by testing us is God trying to check how well we have been created?

Raushan there is nothing more childish than jumping in with an answer which shows that you have no inkling as to what the question is about. It seems strange that overwhelming number of religious people tend to follow which ever faith they were born into.

umniman..Your typing, from my logic and understanding of this world, tells me that someone has typed it and posted it on the net and no more. Who and what you are cannot be deciphered from your typing although the type of person you are can probably be guessed, although not with certaintity, from the way and what you write. Also as far I am aware there is only you caliming to be writing this...Where as with God diverse number of faith groups claim that only they have genuine word of God. Also non believers claim that it is just men claiming to bring messages from God, but the message is nothing but man made (dont get too worked up I am just quoting non believers).

Also it is no point quoting from the Quran, unles it has some scientific, philosophical or logical point, to someone who does not believe that the Quran is from God.
regards
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  2:33 PM Reply with quote
thanks perv1

i thought it now ,your advice is really valuable.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  3:59 PM Reply with quote
Salaam

quote:

"I created not the Jinn and the mankind (for nohing) but that they must worship Me." (51:56)

Some may then question But why? If you say, just to worship Him, another question comes up: Why to worship Him? What does He want to do with worship anyway? Someone may say to know Him, i.e. we worship Him to know Him. Rather, it should be the other way around: We must know Allah in order to worship Him. This has been confirmed by many Qur’anic verses, one of them is the following:


Fair enough at least you are trying to address the question.

quote:

Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, ...(47:19)


The difficulty with this is that...for example if I have a fault then whose fault is it.
Lets simplify it further if you buy a faulty car. Then is it the fault of the car or its manufacturer (for the sake of not being sidetracked lets assume it is a brand new car).

quote:

You see here that knowledge is highly stressed upon, for man to know about his Lord. Allah also says:
There is no god but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. (3:18)


The knowldge regarding God varies depending on your source. However I am not clear as to your point.


quote:

So, you see, knowledge gives rise to strong faith and true awareness about the Divine Entity.


Again I am not clear what you mean.
If by knowldge you mean Science, philosophy, literature etc then in my experience (strictly my own-not based on any statistical facts) many knowldgeable people reject existance of a God.
If however by this you mean knowldge in religious books then you will again find diverse views...many with extensive knowldge will reject existance of a God. Others will have strong faith but not necessarily the same religion...which will often be determined by their own background. Then there is a small minority who will change their faith based on their worldly experience. This change applies to all faiths e.g I know non Muslims who have converted to Islam and I also know of muslims who have converted to Christianity.
Knowldge does not necessarily = strong faith. You could even argue that each day our knowldge increases but belief in God appears to be heading in the opposite direction.

Raushan no offence intended. I would appreciate some seriousouly thought out answers not knee jerk reaction to prove our prejudices.

regards
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, February 10, 2007  -  4:56 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: - "The idea of God is proof of His existance"
The presence of an idea, that I should have 10 rupees in my pocket, proves that I actually have 10 rupees in my pocket?

So, in other words you want to say, “If anyone DOES have the STRONGEST idea of others being the idol worshippers then ACTUALLY others are the idol worshippers” Isn’t it? If so, then your own logic seems to be quite poor.

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