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Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 27, 2004  -  10:52 AM Reply with quote

Which of us makes the claim, I do not know. I can simply say that you make the claim that 'mermaids' exist. Therefore the onus of proving their existence is upon you.

Since I want to continue the dialogue, I would like to tell you that a name or title definitely is devised to refer to some entity. However, the name itself does not furnish enough evidence that the thing in question 'in reality' exists.

If your line of argument is true, then you are compelled to believe in Zeus, Aphrodite and the all mythical figures of Greek Mythology. If you believe in them because they have names, then you have real problem in accepting another God - who claims to be one.

Allah Himself has denied in the Qur'an that these idols, though have a name, do not in reality exist. These idols are nothing but names devised by the ancesstors of Arabs. Do you know about that?

What I mean to say that your own line of argument does not leave you in a definite position. After deciding that every thing that has a name exists, you are compelled to believe in Zeus and Allah at the same time. But again, since they are incompatible, you will be forced to reject one - a self contradictory argument.

Thus, my simply question is that if a thing or entity has a name, does it provide sufficient evidence that it exists in reality? I stress 'in reality'.

aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 27, 2004  -  9:44 PM Reply with quote
Which of us makes the claim, I do not know. I can simply say that you make the claim that 'mermaids' exist. Therefore the onus of proving their existence is upon you.


Kindly refer to your post of September 22. You have stated and I quote:

"About first argument, I would like to share with you that mermaids have a name but they do not exist".
Hope you remember making the claim,so the onus of proving the same is on you.

Since I want to continue the dialogue, I would like to tell you that a name or title definitely is devised to refer to some entity. However, the name itself does not furnish enough evidence that the thing in question 'in reality' exists.
So you agree that a name or title is devised to refer to an ENTITY. And that 'if it has a name it exists, thus Allah exists'. Let us first resolve this point before we discuss the nature of existance.

If your line of argument is true, then you are compelled to believe in Zeus, Aphrodite and the all mythical figures of Greek Mythology. If you believe in them because they have names, then you have real problem in accepting another God - who claims to be one.
Yes I know that Zeus and Aphrodite are among dozens of gods in Greek mythology. This does not create any problem for me,I know a dozen more gods in Hindu mythology and other religions. Your this argument does not refute the existance of god. Infact have not you yourself proved the existance of so many gods. This does not lead me to accepting another god. I need only to prove Oneness of God. But first we have to agree that if it has a name it exists. And every thing that exists have its own distinct attributes.

Regards.

Edited by: aijaz47 on Monday, September 27, 2004 9:51 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Monday, September 27, 2004 10:07 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Tuesday, September 28, 2004 11:03 AM
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 28, 2004  -  9:29 AM Reply with quote
Asalam Aalaikum

The argument going on betweem Brother Mr.Hanif and aijaz is pretty
interesting and Iam enjoying it.

what Brother Mr. Hanif is emphasising is that anything which possesses a name doesnot necessarily exists and he has mentioned his reasoning to support his point but you have to explain the basis on which you hold that anything that has a name will definitely exist.
You are taking "name" as the basis of your argument and "name" is not an enough or clear evidence which could prove the existance of a thing.

If you believe that everything which has a name exits, then you have to present strong and clear evidences to prove the existance of Greek Gods and Mermaids.


Regards,


Edited by: student1 on Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:24 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 28, 2004  -  11:05 AM Reply with quote
Dear Student1

Keep enjoying!

Regards.
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 28, 2004  -  6:58 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr Hanif

Kindly refer to your post of September 27. I need to do a bit of homework to respond to last three paragraphs of your said post.

Regards.
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, September 29, 2004  -  8:13 AM Reply with quote


Asalam Aalaikum

Brother aijaz Iam waiting for your response to my previous post.
You should keep in mind that your main point of focus should be to convince an atheist regarding the existance of God (Allah).They can ask you several question on the existance of God and they dont believe in any religious book.
Their arguments and opinions are based on some secular theories and donot accept any religious bases for the arguments.

I hope it helps

Regards


Edited by: student1 on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 8:28 AM

Edited by: student1 on Thursday, September 30, 2004 8:18 AM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, September 29, 2004  -  6:04 PM Reply with quote
Just ask that atheist to read Torah,Injeel and Holy Quran, not as words of God, as his belief restricts him to admit that,but as ancient pieces of literature and see what the literature suggests.

Regards.

Edited by: aijaz47 on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:10 PM
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, September 30, 2004  -  7:43 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Just ask that atheist to read Torah,Injeel and Holy Quran,not as words of God,as his belief restricts him to admit that,but as ancient pieces of literature and see what the literature suggests.

Regards.

Edited by: aijaz47 on Wednesday, September 29, 2004 6:10 PM


Asalam Aalaikum

If you want to convince an atheist about the consistency of the divine messege of Allah(swt) by drawing his attention to the previous scriptures and Qur'an ,then according to my understanding,I dont think it would help him realize the truth about Islam and Allah(swt) since the previous Scriptures(Bible and Torah) lost their originality and were distorted many years back.
If he refers to the previous scriptures and Qur'an,several questions regarding the authenticity of the text of the previous scriptures could strike his mind.
He can ask you that if God truely exists then why did he let His previous messeges(Bible and Torah)to become corrupt?

Regards,
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, September 30, 2004  -  10:01 AM Reply with quote
Dear Brother

Let us not deviate from the point under discussion.
Let us first resolve wheather the atheist has accepted Tora and Injeel as the words of God. If so then his question as to why the God let Tora and Injeel to be corrupted is valid and needs to be answered. If not so then he must read these as pieces of ancient literature and see what does that literature reveal about the existance of God. And not to blame someone whose existance he, the atheist, does not believe in.
Regards.

Edited by: aijaz47 on Friday, October 01, 2004 3:33 PM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 02, 2004  -  2:35 PM Reply with quote
Dear Mr Hanif you said and I quote:
Allah Himself has denied in the Qur'an that these idols, though have a name, do not in reality exist. These idols are nothing but names devised by the ancesstors of Arabs. Do you know about that?

Are you refereing to the 360 idols placed in Kaba and worshiped by the Arab in the pre islamic era? If yes then what are you denying? Were they not there? Did Allah deny that they were not placed there or they were not being worshiped?

Regards
Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 2:36 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 2:48 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:14 PM
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, October 02, 2004  -  3:46 PM Reply with quote
i think sum1s alredy mentiond this bt im gna say it any way! ^.^

thers a belever and a barber **non beleving barber** and 1 day, the barber sed to the belever: i do NOT beleve in god. and the belever sed: wel y not? and the barber sed: look at all those wars and things going on. i say that if there ever was a god, he'd stop em.

so the belever went away thinking. a week or so later, he came bak and sed: excuse me sir but i do NOT believe in barbers. and the barber was like um Y?? and the belever sed: look at all these people with scraggy hair n long beards. if there was a barber wudnt he sort tht out??

barber: wel duh id sort them out if they came to me...
the belever laughd and sed: EXACTLI! ^.^ god would sort out the wars if people came to him.
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  10:08 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Dear Mr Hanif you said and I quote:
Allah Himself has denied in the Qur'an that these idols, though have a name, do not in reality exist. These idols are nothing but names devised by the ancesstors of Arabs. Do you know about that?

Are you refereing to the 360 idols placed in Kaba and worshiped by the Arab in the pre islamic era? If yes then what are you denying? Were they not there? Did Allah deny that they were not placed there or they were not being worshiped?

Regards
Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 2:36 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 2:48 PM

Edited by: aijaz47 on Saturday, October 02, 2004 7:14 PM


Asalam Aalaikum

Brother again you are confusing, our main point of discussion is not the physical presence of a perticular thing ,but whether the thing actually or really exists or not. Idols do have physical existance but their physical existance doesnot prove that they are truely Gods or have an actual existance.
We are not discussing about the nature of existance .
Take the example of souls, they dont possess any physical appearance like humain beings and animals but still they exist and even some atheist agree with their existance.It is not necessary for a perticular thing to have a physical appearance inorder to exist.

I hope this clarifies the point.

Regards,


Edited by: student1 on Monday, October 04, 2004 10:24 AM

Edited by: student1 on Monday, October 04, 2004 10:47 AM
Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  11:00 AM Reply with quote
The Qur'an does not deny that the idols made of clay or stones are not in the Ka'bah. It says that they do not in reality exist. They singinfy nothing but mere names, without any reality. The Qur'an reads:

Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers. Allah hath revealed no sanction for them. The decision rests with Allah only, Who hath commanded you that ye worship none save Him. This is the right religion, but most men know not. (12:40)

The similar assertion has been reiterated at 7:71; 53:23.
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  2:28 PM Reply with quote
Jhangeer Hanif

Asalam Aalaikum

What brother aijaz should realize is that everything which exists doesnot necessarily have physical appearance.

I hope Mr. Hanif would agree with me and also agree with my last post.

Regards,


Edited by: student1 on Monday, October 04, 2004 2:38 PM
aijaz47

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  5:14 PM Reply with quote
I think we are moving in a circle. I said and claim, "if it has a name it exists".

Regards.
shetayo

NIGERIA
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  6:21 PM Reply with quote
This is a really interesting discussion and I ask to be permitted to join.The point above by Aijaz47 to the effect that "if it has a name it exists" is not very clear to me.I would like to know what he means by "exists", I know the discussion has been on for a while, but just humour me.
Regards.

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