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perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007  -  10:34 PM Reply with quote
Oh yes.

quote:

I ll not disgrace you by asking the meaning of paedophile but am sure that the background is highly influenced by those rotten minds who have started abusing the prophet of peace after loosing the war of ideology to Islam.
I d request you to quote from Bukhari accusing prophet for the same you listed in the post.


Marriage etc to Aisha whilst her age was in single figures...not in the Quran but hadith. Do you have children? would you be happy for a 7yr old to sleep with a man in his fifties. Or do you think 7 yrs old over 1400 yrs ago were somehow physically and mentally different.
With friendly information like this who needs enemies to write anything.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 30, 2007  -  5:25 AM Reply with quote
Dear Perv.1

I agreed with you that there are some ahadith which give this kind of impression as you stated. Should I tell you one thing here,you are doing a very big mistake here brother.If you came across of these kind of ahadith which may be less than 2% and due to these ahadith, you thought that the rest 98% are also use less for us.This is where shaitan will more happy than where you thought he is.Even most of these 2% may have noting wrong with them but we are not qualified enough to understand them.

Your actual problem is not these kind of ahdith but some thing else which may be you your self are not aware of it and you may need to find it.Your problem is not these ahadith but the Quran it self brother.You are not even sure that Quran giving us clear orders to follow Prophet(pbuh) and many of others verses of Quran which clearly stablished for us that the Sunnah and ahadith are the main source of our deen after Quran and without following the Sunnah and ahadith we even never know that how to follow the basic five pillars of Islam.Forget about the rest of duties which Quran ask us to do.You your self is a teacher how can you thought like that Just the books could be good enough and there is no need of a teacher to explain it and demonstrate it for the students than how can you though that God will do it.Very funny really.

Regards,
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 30, 2007  -  7:47 PM Reply with quote
quote:

You your self is a teacher how can you thought like that Just the books could be good enough and there is no need of a teacher to explain it and demonstrate it for the students than how can you though that God will do it.

[6:114]Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?

What do you mean by the words of your Lord (1.This book fully detailed and, 2. Other than GOD as a source of law)?
quote:

If I am doing mistake by following another source beside Quran so your case is worst than mine.

Self recommendation has NO admittance!!!!.

Only Qura’n is the Supreme Law, NOT the whim of yours

Worst, actually are those who do not believe in the God words (Noble Qura’n), fully detailed and the ONLY source of law.
quote:

Well, I've told you Earlier that "Tawaatur" needs NO authentication Bcoz there is Nothing MORE authentic in this World than a Tawaatur.

If such is such (authentication) for ANY Tawaatur, then all the religious teachings reached us today by the Tawaatur are also right. They do not AT ALL need to be changed or innovated. Isn’t it???


Edited by: Rakhtal on Friday, March 30, 2007 7:50 PM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, March 31, 2007  -  6:51 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Br waseem,
I am trying to say that Quran and Hadith both were written and transfered to the next generations in the best available technology of that time.
Handwriting ,memorising and counter checking of text were the best means to keep the text unaultered and our previous scholars used it.
wassalam
Br Raushan
Plz Correct ur ABOVE statement. Only Quran was Transfered to Next Generations with tawaatur & Ijmaa Orally as well as in written form & Not The Hadith.
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, March 31, 2007  -  5:19 PM Reply with quote
quote:

The Quran states “Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it” (Surah al-Hijr 15:9). For 1400 years this verse according to the submitters was a lie! As the Quran had two extra verses added to it and yet the Quran said God would preserve it!

What an absurd claim is!!!!!

Who one says lie whilst the ORIGINAL copies of Noble Qura’n are well SAVED for more than 1400 years and STILL present?
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, April 01, 2007  -  7:26 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Br Raushan
Plz Correct ur ABOVE statement. Only Quran was Transfered to Next Generations with tawaatur & Ijmaa Orally as well as in written form & Not The Hadith.

Many thanks br Ibrahim,
I stand corrected.Plz do keep a check on my posts and advice whenever required.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, April 01, 2007  -  11:59 PM Reply with quote
Salaam Usmani

Difficult to rationally discuss anything with you as you appear to be obcessed with your scholars who consider thinking as acrime and you appear to be obliging quite well.
Anyway will try again:

quote:

I agreed with you that there are some ahadith which give this kind of impression as you stated. Should I tell you one thing here,you are doing a very big mistake here brother.If you came across of these kind of ahadith which may be less than 2% and due to these ahadith, you thought that the rest 98% are also use less for us.This is where shaitan will more happy than where you thought he is.Even most of these 2% may have noting wrong with them but we are not qualified enough to understand them.


Even in this short piece you have managed to contradict yourself. Although I doubt you will be able to see this.

quote:

Your problem is not these ahadith but the Quran it self brother


Amazing it must be based in your impeccable logic as displayed below:

quote:

You are not even sure that Quran giving us clear orders to follow Prophet(pbuh)


I assume from this you mean that the Quran says follow Prophet Mohd and the hadith are the means to follow Mohd.

OBEY GOD AND THE MESSANGER MEANS TO FOLLOW GODS MESSAGE THAT HE HAS SENT THROUGH THE MESSANGERS. Not what what one particular messanger (in your case Mohd) ate, drank, how he wore his clothes and performed other bodily functions. FOR IF YOU WERE TO BEGIN TO STUDY THE KITAB QURAN (I know you have heard of it because you keep mentioning it...altough it is obvious you have not studied it) YOU WILL SEE THAT GOD MAKES NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIS MESSANGERS & IT ACTUALLY DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE TO FOLLOW MOHD (unless you have different Quran to me).
The Quran, if you ever get to study it, also will tell you that Prophet Mohd was a human being and capable of mistakes like a human being.
Your most absurd assumption is that the hadith are an accurate account of What the Prophet Mohd said or did. Even though even you admit that there are contradictions within them. Hadith are not even an accurate record..They are THE GREATEST CORRUPTION THAT HAVE OCCURED IN ISLAM. So lets not have this nonsence that somehow they are an accurate record of Prophet Mohds life.

quote:

and many of others verses of Quran which clearly stablished for us that the Sunnah and ahadith are the main source of our deen after Quran


And exactly which verses are these? The only time the Quran mentions the hadith is to comprehensively condemn them and states not to believe in this extra Quranic rubbish.

quote:

and without following the Sunnah and ahadith we even never know that how to follow the basic five pillars of Islam


Really I asked for the knowldgeable souls in hadith to enlighten ignorant me in how the hadith details about performing salaat from beginning to end. Raushan gave some vague information and Link which suggested that God did not really understand humans and needed Prophet Moses to put him right. Perhaps you will be able to explain Salaat from start to finish as mentined in hadith.

quote:

Forget about the rest of duties which Quran ask us to do

You already do this by ignoring the Quran when it tells you not to believe in any hadith other than the Quran.

quote:

You your self is a teacher how can you thought like that Just the books could be good enough and there is no need of a teacher to explain it and demonstrate


I am glad we dont share the same books or the teachers.

quote:

it for the students than how can you though that God will do it.Very funny really.

!!!!!!!!

regards
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, April 02, 2007  -  10:01 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Lets us look at this carefully. Is this not suggesting God & Prophet Mohd have no clue and require Prophet Moses to put them right. ...

salam,
First,to check the authenticity of the given text ,it needs an expertise in that field.I am not an expert.May some other seniors give us clue on the same.
Second,even if it is a story written by previous ones,as you say,I ve no objection to take lessons from it coz it doesnt contradict the teachings of Quran.
Initial order to pray 50 times itself means man has nothing do anything else except praying (salatt).It will consume more than half of a 24hrs day.The rest part one can give to sleep and other necessary biological requirements.This explains [51:56 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. ]
The other part of this'story'suggests how Allah is 'most merciful'.He deduct even obligatory duties if man finds it hard to observe.The last thing I learn is that one should continuously ask mercy of Allah if he finds it hard to execute the duties assigned to him and Allah will certainly bring comfort to His servants.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 02, 2007  -  10:10 AM Reply with quote
Jazak Allah Kairen Brother Raushan,What an exellent understanding of the religion you have shown here.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, April 02, 2007  -  10:17 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Marriage etc to Aisha whilst her age was in single figures...not in the Quran but hadith. Do you have children? would you be happy for a 7yr old to sleep with a man in his fifties. .......who needs enemies to write anything.
The anger is the worst enemy man can ever have.Although I honor your anger but must say this is not balanced and can be termed as intellectual laziness.You d have reacted better in a different fashion if listened both sides and judge them neutrally.
Its good to learn how a hadith in question is checked,tested and verified before acceptance.I request you go through the below link,demonstrating the same about the age of hazrat aisha(ra):
http://www.islamicvoice.com/march.2001/dialogue.htm#haz
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, April 02, 2007  -  10:38 AM Reply with quote
quote:

OBEY GOD AND THE MESSANGER MEANS TO FOLLOW GODS MESSAGE THAT HE HAS SENT THROUGH THE MESSANGERS.Not what what one particular messanger (in your case Mohd) ate, drank, how he wore his clothes and performed other bodily functions.
Excellent!!!!!!!I must ask you whether these messengers including Mohammad has followed the "God's Message"or not?.
I ll follow Mohammad if yes,means he followed God's Message.
If no,then plz tell me ,was it a message for Others excluding messangers.

quote:

YOU WILL SEE THAT GOD MAKES NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIS MESSANGERS & IT ACTUALLY DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE TO FOLLOW MOHD (unless you have different Quran to me).
Wait man!!where it is said that one shouldnt follow Muhammad.plz quote.

quote:

The Quran, if you ever get to study it, also will tell you that Prophet Mohd was a human being and capable of mistakes like a human being.
This is true and equally true is that its half of the complete sentence.Yes he was capable of mistakes but Allah guided him instantly.Dont you read 80:1


Edited by: raushan on Monday, April 02, 2007 12:40 PM
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 02, 2007  -  12:18 PM Reply with quote
Dear Rakhtal

Quote:-6:114]Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed?

What do you mean by the words of your Lord (1.This book fully detailed and, 2. Other than GOD as a source of law)?

1.This book fully detailed

Reply:-It means that we need to study the whole book(Quran) and see what are the details are there for us to follow.As far as the following and obeying of Prophet(pbuh) is concerned,we see the following instructions of Allah in the Quran.


We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.(16:44))

Say: Obey Allâh and the Messenger, but if they turn their backs, Allâh loves not the disbelievers. (3:32)

And obey Allâh and the Messenger so that you may be blessed. (3:132)

So fear Allâh and set things right between you, and obey Allâh and His Messenger if you are believers. (8:1)

O those who believe, obey Allâh and His Messenger and do not turn away from him, while you are listening. (8:20)

Say: Obey Allâh and obey the Messenger; then, if you turn away, upon him rests what is laid on him, and upon you rests what is laid on you. If you obey him, you will be guided. (24:54)

So establish salaah and pay zakaah and obey Allâh and His Messenger. (58:13)

And whoever obeys Allâh and His Messenger, he has won a great success. (33:71)

And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He shall admit him to Fire where he shall remain forever. (4:14)

And whAnd whoever makes a breach with Allâh and His Messenger, then Allâh is severe in punishment. (8:13)

whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)


Fight those who do not believe in Allâh and the Hereafter and do not hold unlawful what Allâh and His Messenger have made unlawful. (9:29)

But no, by your Lord, they shall not be (deemed to be) believers unless they accept you as judge in their disputes, then find in their hearts no adverse feeling against what you decided, but surrender to it in complete submission. (4:65)


After looking at these verses from Quran any sincere person can easily understood that we are bound by Allah Him self to follow and obey the Prophet(pbuh), the explanation of Quran by the Prophet(pbuh) and what ever Prophet(pbuh) has told us in the matter of deen,we have to follow them.Prophets words we found in ahadith not in Quran.Quran are words of Allah and Ahadith are the words of Prophet(pbuh).We got to follow and obey both,that is what the message we got from these verses.


2. Other than GOD as a source of law)?

Reply:-This is what we need to understand that what ever Prophet(pbuh) told us to follow and in the matter of deen,He got it from Allah.He don’t say any thing from His own as far any matter of deen is concerned.

And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 18, 2007  -  12:29 AM Reply with quote
AOA all

Dear Raushan

My remark regarding your reference was:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lets us look at this carefully. Is this not suggesting God & Prophet Mohd have no clue and require Prophet Moses to put them right. ...
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your response:

quote:

salam,
First,to check the authenticity of the given text ,it needs an expertise in that field.I am not an expert.May some other seniors give us clue on the same
.

Why quote a reference which you dont understand...bit difficult to back your point when you actually dont understand t yourself.

quote:

Second,even if it is a story written by previous ones,as you say,I ve no objection to take lessons from it coz it doesnt contradict the teachings of Quran.


Really! I am sure you understand what you are saying.

quote:

Initial order to pray 50 times itself means man has nothing do anything else except praying (salatt).It will consume more than half of a 24hrs day.The rest part one can give to sleep and other necessary biological requirements.


I think you have made a little error here. As there will be no time to grow any food or any other consumable item there will be no need to perform any bodily functions. Then on the other hand as there will be no time to teach etc no one will have much clue about namaz etc.
But you still have not explained whether this issue was beyond Gods understanding or God was deliberately being mischevious.

quote:

This explains [51:56 I have only created Jinns and men, that they may serve Me. ]
The other part of this'story'suggests how Allah is 'most merciful'.He deduct even obligatory duties if man finds it hard to observe.The last thing I learn is that one should continuously ask mercy of Allah if he finds it hard to execute the duties assigned to him and Allah will certainly bring comfort to His servants.


Yes God is merciful but this in no way explain your reference. Besides I thought it was beyond you undrstanding


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
OBEY GOD AND THE MESSANGER MEANS TO FOLLOW GODS MESSAGE THAT HE HAS SENT THROUGH THE MESSANGERS.Not what what one particular messanger (in your case Mohd) ate, drank, how he wore his clothes and performed other bodily functions.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Excellent!!!!!!!I must ask you whether these messengers including Mohammad has followed the "God's Message"or not?.
I ll follow Mohammad if yes,means he followed God's Message.
If no,then plz tell me ,was it a message for Others excluding messangers.


I am not sure what you are saying here. My point was simply that followers of Anti Islamic hadith justify their actions by quoting the above. The above simply states: To follow the message God has sent through his messangers & nothing more. If you cannot understand this Nothing more I say is going to make any sense to you.

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOU WILL SEE THAT GOD MAKES NO DISTINCTION BETWEEN HIS MESSANGERS & IT ACTUALLY DOES NOT SAY ANYWHERE TO FOLLOW MOHD (unless you have different Quran to me).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

Wait man!!where it is said that one shouldnt follow Muhammad.plz quote.


Well it does not say not to follow the Buddah, Krishna, Joseph Smith etc either. Amazing!


quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Quran, if you ever get to study it, also will tell you that Prophet Mohd was a human being and capable of mistakes like a human being.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:

This is true and equally true is that its half of the complete sentence.Yes he was capable of mistakes but Allah guided him instantly.Dont you read 80:1


The issues are minor but they are there to illustrate the fallibilty of even Prophet Mohd. Whether God corrected the prophet or not is neither here or there. The versus show that Mohd as human was capable of making mistakes and the only thing which is perfect is God & his message. But then according to your statements God is not always right & needs help to get the number time a salaat should be performed.

I asked you a simple question would you be happy for you daughter (let us assume you have one) to consumate a marital relationship with a man in his fifties.
Yes or no would have been sufficent, but somehow it got mixed in with my anger....I am still trying to work this one out.

regards
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 18, 2007  -  11:50 PM Reply with quote
Oh Yes any one with full details from hadith in how to perform Namaz from a to z.
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  6:32 PM Reply with quote
Perv,1 study hadith in detail not be prejudicefull, you will find the detail.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  11:28 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Perv,1 study hadith in detail not be prejudicefull, you will find the detail.


Must mean you have studied it know it well. therefore how about doing me (and many others) a favour and summarising it.

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