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daneste64

USA
Posted - Wednesday, June 01, 2005  -  4:37 AM Reply with quote
Whether like it or nor, each one has set up their own point of view.
I personally don't see the point to ask myself all the questions on how and why do I listen to music.
If for someone the only good things come from followers of Islam, well, for sure he/she has the point. But that point is not mine.
There is beauty out there, from Muslims and from non Muslims. I do not share their beliefs, but if they produce something respectful and artistic, I do not see any bad on this.
Again, I do not impose my view, I share it.
If a brother can research deeply into the Qur'an and Sunnah and have an answer, good for him!
I'm sorry, not everyone can do that.
Unfortunately, some Muslims are a bit arrogant to display their knowledge and ask to exchange ideas only with those at "their level" of suppose knowledge. They can have mind and intelligence, but less humbleness.
From my side, let the "lions of Allah" be their way. I know where the lions finally end up. It is a matter of time. When words are not enough, dangerous tings they are willing to do.
I apologize for what I was or I would be wrong.
Salaam.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 01, 2005  -  8:01 AM Reply with quote
Assalam-u-allaikum!
You should be the first in presenting a good example of a courteous Muslim and even if the other Muslim doesn't respect you, you as a Muslim should not only respect that Muslim but also use kind , courteous and friendly words if you can.
Lion is a symbol of courage and courage is not forbidden. Muslims should be the most humble slaves of ALLAH but should have the courage to speak out what they think is the truth today .
Where do the lions end up ?
What dangerous things am I willing to do ? Why do you think I am arrogant or proud? Arrogance is strictly forbidden in Islam.
1. All kinds of arrogance, even the slightest arrogance is strictly forbidden in Islam.
2. I am willing to discuss with any one, even children or non-Muslims, but when discussion starts using disrespectful words, others are also hurt and this kind of discussion is not good for those observers . I have heard some Muslims say that discussion is useless. I say it is useless for those who don't want to change their conclusions any further. Discussion is only useful when the parties honestly reflect on the messages sent by others and respect each other being polite and courteous.
3. I only presented what I think is right . Honestly read my message and if you are convinced follow it otherwise find some other convincing evidences in favour of your opinion and follow it .

There is nothing wrong with having a point of view but it becomes dangerous when you make that point of view solid and unmodifyable even in the light of evidence and arguments. Present all evidence and arguments in favour of your point of view, read evidence and arguments presented by the ones having a different point of view and if convinced, change your point of view a bit, partially or totally , or nothing at all if you are not convinced.

Research is advisable for all scholars . It is not difficult if you are willing to give some time to it also....like your other activities. You can try to learn Qur'anic Arabic, you can collect all the Ayaat of the Qur'an on a particular topic and try to find important conclusions. You can analyze Hadith , you can compare the findings of different scholars and try to find the strongest opinion supported by Qur'an , Hadith, Sunnan , logic etc...

Edited by: asim2 on Sunday, July 10, 2005 11:43 AM
Irsalfwalsh

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 01, 2005  -  8:47 PM Reply with quote
Salam.
Allah knows better. Rewards of the deeds depends upon our intentions.
Rakhtal

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 02, 2005  -  8:30 PM Reply with quote
However some Wahabis will insist in condemning all points of view but theirs....
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Some Wahabis are only anti-shia otherwise they don’t do which other Wahabis do.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 02, 2005  -  8:41 PM Reply with quote
Compared to ALLAH's Infinite, Perfect, and Absolute Knowledge, we know nothing.

"I personally think" we should not compare ALLAH to any creation by using comparative words like more, most, better, greatest etc... because according to Surah Ikhlas

".... There is nothing comparable to HIM "

Let's not use comparative words.

e.g , Instead of Most Merciful, I translate as The Infinitely Merciful
Instead of the Most Great, I translate as The Incomparably Great. To show continuity I use Ever, e.g. The Ever Merciful.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 02, 2005  -  8:53 PM Reply with quote
1. I am not a Wahabi, I am only a Muslim and nothing more.
2. I do not insist on condemning all points of view but mine. But I use my right to present my point of view and support it with evidence and arguments.
3. I am not anti-Shia .

Respected brother in Islam, Rakhtal I still respect you as I respect the other Muslims and we Muslims are all like brothers and sisters, like a body, one part of which if hurt the whole body feels the pain.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, June 02, 2005  -  10:33 PM Reply with quote
Dear Assim2

I have visited the various links and as far as I am aware the world is still on-going i.e it has not come to and end. Could you please give us some examples of the predictions the Hadith that have come true. I could find no hadith predictions which have come true. as far as the end of the world is concerned i am uttely confused! Sorry to be so pedantic but you cannot make sweeping statements and then not clarify them.

Oh incidentally I completely agree that personal attacks are plain rude.
daneste64

USA
Posted - Thursday, June 02, 2005  -  10:45 PM Reply with quote
I am willing to keep searching for a better understanding of the topic. And again I'd like to apologize for any type of words that could hurt other brothers or sisters.
I have been educated in a family with strong appreciation for music, and always a nice and decent music has been in my life the cause of joy and hapiness. However, since Allah the Almighty deserves our complete submission, I am certain He will guide me to understand what is better.
In regard to the "Wahabi" thing... I still think that they represent one of the most conservative and strict point of view in Islam. They are considered the true custodians of the Sacred places and a simple visit to Saudi Arabia tells what I really mean. Many scholars today, around the world and working in so many masjids have been educated and supported by this group due to the control and the money they posess. Consequently, it is somehow easy to find certain reasoning very close to theirs, and certain strict positions related to them.
But I have no right to apply this to any borther. I am sorry for that. One can have a strict position, adjusted to the Qur'an and Sunnan, and not belong to this group. Can be or cannot be. It is not my bussiness.
Hope to keep reading about this topic, from other brothers and sisters,as well as from Asim2.
Salaam.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, June 03, 2005  -  8:02 PM Reply with quote
for an example of acceptable clean music plz visit and listen online


www.soundvision.com
www.mountainoflight.com
www.mynaraps.com
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 03, 2005  -  9:19 PM Reply with quote
Hkhan ,
You think all the music on these 3 web sites is acceptable and clean music . You have a free mind, you can have your conclusions. But it is definitely not my conclusion. I disagree .

Perv1.
Sorry to be so pedantic but you
should first read properly and then make sweeping judgements
. There is a difference between "the end" and the "signs of the end" if you know basic English ! I mentioned the signs of the end and did not say the world has ended otherwise you would not be here ......would you ?You are aware the world is still on-going . Even children are very well aware that the world is still on-going. So what's tthe big deal about it ! Signs of the end are the signs foretelling that judgement day may be near. How near no one knows except ALLAH. And the web sites that I referred explain these Hadith and try to prove these Hadith with sufficient evidence. If you were interested in sincere research you wouldn't have responded so early without reading the web sites and just returning for discussion and not finding a single Hadith . If interested go visit them now and honestly analyze them.
Confused ? You ? Really ! Then why didn't you research the web sites properly and asked questions about your confusions so that I can try to remove that confusion or is it that you reject some Hadith on a different criteria ?
If you don't want to believe these Ahadith , I don't think a 100 Ahadith will make any difference but if you have belief in a Hadith then 1 Hadith is sufficient. These web sites clarify the issue in sufficient depth if you are interested. What do you want? That I bring a Hadith into this Forum and you reject that Hadith just because it is not in The Qur'an .
I really want to know what is your point of view about accepting or rejecting a hadith. How do you judge hadith .

Daneste,
If following the authentic hadith whose authenticity has been proven and in which I myself find no inconsistency with the Qur'an, using logical evidences against which no one of you brought an equivalent logical evidence and just started misbehaving, makes you think I am strict or "whatever you say" then you can say whatever you like because my research shows that I can't reject the Authentic Hadith. Hadith as a secondary source of Islam is very crucial and important instead of making your personal reasoning the second source. By the way I had no biased religious training. I started researching Islam at a mature age and demanded Qur'anic Ayat, Hadith, Sunnan to verify a conclusion and compared the findings of different scholars. I had no official religious teacher.

Restart discussing music logically, e.g. bring in some lyrics of your favourite songs or should I say clean songs so that this discussion can progress .
umarbaig

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, June 05, 2005  -  2:08 AM Reply with quote
Assalam-o-Alaikom

In short, in the light of Quran and Ahadith, music is bad and always a sin.

Sincerely,
Umar Baig
umarbaig

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, June 05, 2005  -  2:08 AM Reply with quote
Assalam-o-Alaikom

In short, in the light of Quran and Ahadith, music is bad and always a sin.

Sincerely,
Umar Baig
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, June 05, 2005  -  7:30 AM Reply with quote
Assalam-u-allaikum !

It can also be proven logically that most if not all music is not advisable at all or bad. I partially proved the point earlier but a detailed logical analysis can also be presented.

Also....

The Qur'an.
Yes "Laghw" the word found in the Qur'an . Laghw includes most if not all music.

Laghw = "Which neither has any benefit in the Hereafter nor has any useful effect in this world".

Also tell me what is your criteria regarding Hadith so that I can also use the Hadith to prove my point.
daneste64

USA
Posted - Sunday, June 05, 2005  -  3:28 PM Reply with quote
What is the "useful effect in this world"? We do lots of things without a real and practical use. Eating is necessary to survive. But eating a dessert or sweets has no real useful effect other than something enjoyable, something we do just to enjoy taste.
Can you please clarify this point?
I do not want just to jump into any conclusion. But I couldn't avoid to relate to what usually enjoyable music is... We listen to something that refreshes the sense of hearing, that's it.
But I could be wrong. This is not an apology of music, so do not take me wrong.
Salaam.
umarbaig

INDIA
Posted - Monday, June 06, 2005  -  3:05 PM Reply with quote
Assalam-o-Alaikom dear daneste64

Eating is necessary to survive. But eating a dessert or sweets has no real useful effect other than something enjoyable, something we do just to enjoy taste.
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The quoted example of eating and just enjoying the taste looks not to defend your argument. Man by nature wants to taste many things but Islam condemns. Nature compels man to adapt every Halal and Haram. Can someone change the taste with a Haram thing, in general?
daneste64

USA
Posted - Monday, June 06, 2005  -  3:21 PM Reply with quote
A sweet dessert, when is Halal, is not forbiden, isn't it? We want to taste and has no haram unless is not Halal. It is out of discussion if it would be accpetable to taste something that is not Halal. This is not my point.
To like to taste something because is just nice, sweet, enjoyable... is that bad?
I've just said, and maybe I am wrong, that music, could be a taste for the hearing sense, and could be acceptable if no harm is in it.
My question, my brother, is the following: It is music bad in all cases because has something "inside" that make evil, with evil consequences, with no chance other than stop listening (and I would like to know where exactly says that, literally music is bad, evil by itself) or because has not useful purpose... One brother says that has no useful purpose for the Hereafter and for this life. And I said that other things we do are just to enjoy, taste, and have a nice life.
By the way, we need fun things to have a nice and enjoyable life as long as they are Halal.
The question still is there...
Salaam.

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