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shah_625

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Friday, September 26, 2008  -  5:15 PM Reply with quote
Hell Forever?


Salam
I read this ayat the other day Surah Bakarah Verse No.80 about the jews who thought that no matter how bad they are in this world they will only spend few days in hell and eventually go to heaven. Allah says in the next worse that who ever does evil is bad will stay in hell forever.We muslims also say the same that we'll eventually go to heavens. I want to know whether this is true, whether Quran mentions this, if not then I think I have a reason to beleive that this is concept among us is wrong.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, September 27, 2008  -  12:21 PM Reply with quote
we the ordinary human being try to play God and expect other fellow humans to be angels.
To punish or not to punish or how long to punish or not to punish at all is His job and only/ alone Him can do it rightly.So better leave it for Him and not cross our boundry.
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, September 27, 2008  -  4:03 PM Reply with quote
No brother, I totally disagree with you, if what you are saying is correct then why did ALlah mention it in the Quran.
This has nothing to do with crossing our boundary.
Infact the way i see ur reply, it pretty much tells ur inability to ans my question.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, September 28, 2008  -  8:29 AM Reply with quote
shah,
plz ignore my posts,its simple,I dont question your ability to detect others intellects.you may be right.
-------

2:80 And they say, "The fire will most certainly not touch us for more than a limited number of days." [65] Say [unto them]: "Have you received a promise from God - for God never breaks His promise - or do you attribute to God something which you cannot know?"

2:81 Yea! Those who earn evil and by their sinfulness are engulfed - they are destined for the fire. therein to abide;

2:82 whereas those who attain to faith and do righteous deeds -they are destined for paradise, therein to abide.
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, September 28, 2008  -  8:31 AM Reply with quote
What is your point with these quotes from Surah Bakarah?MY question is still there

Edited by: ibrahim on Monday, September 29, 2008 6:13 AM
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  6:22 AM Reply with quote
Only those Muslims will eventually go to heavens after having their punishment (i.e. spending some time in the Hell) whom Emaan will be accepted by God.
Those will remain in Hell for evere whom Emaan will be rejected or they have done the sin whose punishment is Hell for ever will like killing a Muslim delebrately (4:93).
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  7:21 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Only those Muslims will eventually go to heavens after having their punishment (i.e. spending some time in the Hell) whom Emaan will be accepted by God.


Jazakallahu Khair.

The fillowing verse explains your point.


Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوا وَّنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا

19:72 And once again: We shall save [from hell] those who have been conscious of Us; but We shall leave in it the evildoers, on their knees.

And who are the evildoers, about whom Allah s.w.t. says "We shall leave in it (in hell) the evildoers, on their knees."?

The answer is in the Qur'an itself.


An-Nisa (The Women)

إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاء وَمَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَى إِثْمًا عَظِيمًا

4:48 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. -

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.

And the following verses will leave no further doubts.


Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)

عَسَى رَبُّكُمْ أَن يَرْحَمَكُمْ وَإِنْ عُدتُّمْ عُدْنَا وَجَعَلْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ حَصِيرًا

17:8 Your Sustainer may well show mercy unto you; but if you revert [to sinning], We shall revert [to chastising you]. And [remember this:] We have ordained that [in the hereafter] hell shall close upon all who deny the truth.

Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ لَنَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِالَّذِينَ هُمْ أَوْلَى بِهَا صِلِيًّا

19:70 for, indeed, We know best as to which of them is most deserving of the fires of hell.
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  7:28 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Salam
I read this ayat the other day Surah Bakarah Verse No.80 ..................... I have a reason to beleive that this is concept among us is wrong.


Such doubts do arise when you start reading the Qur'an, but if you patiently read the whole Qur'an you will come across answers to all your questions that arise on the way.

Please read my post above where I have posted the relevant verses which will Insha Allah clear your doubt.
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  9:36 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

Only those Muslims will eventually go to heavens after having their punishment (i.e. spending some time in the Hell) whom Emaan will be accepted by God.


Jazakallahu Khair.

The fillowing verse explains your point.


Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوا وَّنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا

19:72 And once again: We shall save [from hell] those who have been conscious of Us; but We shall leave in it the evildoers, on their knees.

And who are the evildoers, about whom Allah s.w.t. says "We shall leave in it (in hell) the evildoers, on their knees."?

The answer is in the Qur'an itself.


An-Nisa (The Women)

إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاء وَمَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَى إِثْمًا عَظِيمًا

4:48 Lo! Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. -

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.

And the following verses will leave no further doubts.


Al-Isra (The Journey by Night)

عَسَى رَبُّكُمْ أَن يَرْحَمَكُمْ وَإِنْ عُدتُّمْ عُدْنَا وَجَعَلْنَا جَهَنَّمَ لِلْكَافِرِينَ حَصِيرًا

17:8 Your Sustainer may well show mercy unto you; but if you revert [to sinning], We shall revert [to chastising you]. And [remember this:] We have ordained that [in the hereafter] hell shall close upon all who deny the truth.

Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ لَنَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِالَّذِينَ هُمْ أَوْلَى بِهَا صِلِيًّا

19:70 for, indeed, We know best as to which of them is most deserving of the fires of hell.



Brother I actually do not agree with your interpretation of the verses quoted from Quran.
If you read the previous verses you wil see what is actually being talked about.

" So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell;"
" Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious.<BR><B>019.070</B> And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein.<BR><B>019.071</B> Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished.<BR><B>019.072</B> But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees."</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE><FONT SIZE=2>Al-Qur'an, 019.069-072 (Maryam [Mary])

Now it is clear from the above verses that on the day of judgement everybody will pass through Hell, from where Allah says He will save those who guarded themselves against evil.
Evil doesn't only mean to associate partner to Allah, as you were trying to point out by quoting 4:48 & 4:116.
Basically evil doers are those who donot fear Allah & consequently disobey His orders. Allah says that all others sins are forgivable except Shirk. And disobedience is what is going to take one to hell.

" Those are limits set by Allah: those who obey Allah and His Messenger will be admitted to Gardens with rivers flowing beneath, to abide therein (for ever) and that will be the supreme achievement.<BR><B>004.014</B> But those who disobey Allah and His Messenger and transgress His limits will be admitted to a Fire, to abide therein: And they shall have a humiliating punishment."</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE><FONT SIZE=2>Al-Qur'an, 004.013-014 (An-Nisa [Women])

Now coming to qoute from surah Isra, brother look at the context, and what is your point by those higlighted words.

" And We gave (Clear) Warning to the Children of Israel in the Book, that twice would they do mischief on the earth and be elated with mighty arrogance (and twice would they be punished)!<BR><B>017.005</B> When the first of the warnings came to pass, We sent against you Our servants given to terrible warfare: They entered the very inmost parts of your homes; and it was a warning (completely) fulfilled.<BR><B>017.006</B> Then did We grant you the Return as against them: We gave you increase in resources and sons, and made you the more numerous in man-power.<BR><B>017.007</B> If ye did well, ye did well for yourselves; if ye did evil, (ye did it) against yourselves. So when the second of the warnings came to pass, (We permitted your enemies) to disfigure your faces, and to enter your Temple as they had entered it before, and to visit with destruction all that fell into their power.<BR><B>017.008</B> It may be that your Lord may (yet) show Mercy unto you; but if ye revert (to your sins), We shall revert (to Our punishments): And we have made Hell a prison for those who reject (all Faith).</TD></TR></TABLE></TD></TR></TABLE><FONT SIZE=2>Al-Qur'an, 017.004-008 (Al-Isra [Isra, The Night Journey, Children of Israel])

It is clear that Allah is talking about Israelities, and by what you have highlighted hell shall close upon all who deny the truth.
This means that the deniers of faith (Kaafir)are already gonna go to hell,Allah says to the Israelities if you dn't come on the right path, you to will follow them in hell.

Edited by: shah_625 on Monday, September 29, 2008 9:42 AM
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  12:31 PM Reply with quote

............... by what you have highlighted hell shall close upon all who deny the truth.

This means that the deniers of faith (Kaafir)are already gonna go to hell,Allah says to the Israelities if you dn't come on the right path, you to will follow them in hell.



hell shall close upon all who deny the truth. could mean that along with those who totally reject (all Faith), the two chategories of people mntioned in the following verse also cannot hope to be removed from hell like the other sinners.


An-Nisa (The Women)

إِنَّ اللّهَ لاَ يَغْفِرُ أَن يُشْرَكَ بِهِ وَيَغْفِرُ مَا دُونَ ذَلِكَ لِمَن يَشَاء وَمَن يُشْرِكْ بِاللّهِ فَقَدِ افْتَرَى إِثْمًا عَظِيمًا

4:48 Lo!Allah forgiveth not that a partner should be ascribed unto Him. He forgiveth (all) save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners to Allah, he hath indeed invented a tremendous sin. -

An-Nisa (The Women)

4:116 Lo! Allah pardoneth not that partners should be ascribed unto him. He pardoneth all save that to whom He will. Whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah hath wandered far astray.

I said that bvecause both the veses begin with "Lo!Allah forgiveth not... Hope I have made my point clear.



Edited by: aboosait on Monday, September 29, 2008 12:51 PM
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 29, 2008  -  1:34 PM Reply with quote
I said that bvecause both the veses begin with "Lo!Allah forgiveth not... Hope I have made my point clear.

Yes brother now I understand your point. But Allah says along with it, "Whom HE pleaseth"
This doesn't mean that everybody will be forgiven, those who really repent and never indulge in their evil acts again, will be the ones or will have a chance.
My question is still there, that we Muslims also think like those Israelities, that no matter how bad we are we will eventually go to heaven. Allah dismisses their belief(and so our belief aswell) in the verse I mentioned at the start
Bakarah (2:80)
And they say: "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days:" Say: "Have ye taken a promise from Allah, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"blue]
Want we do not know!
And besides in todays world especially in the sub-continent a lot o people indulge in shirk by going to shrines and doing things which are totally totally equivalent of associating partners with Allah.

And one more thing, I again would point this out that it's not necessary that only indulging in Shirk is going to make you stay in Hell forever, Allah says in the next worse (2:81)


Nay, those who seek gain in evil, and are girt round by their sins,- they are companions of the Fire: Therein shall they abide (For ever).
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, September 30, 2008  -  4:45 AM Reply with quote
quote:

..........Yes brother now I understand your point. But Allah says along with it, "Whom HE pleaseth"
This doesn't mean that everybody will be forgiven,.........


Jazakallahu Khair.

Yet I feel that the fillowing verse copntains hope for such people.


Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوا وَّنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا

19:72 And once again: We shall save [from hell] those who have been conscious of Us; but We shall leave in it the evildoers, on their knees.

But again I am reminded of the fact that even regarding those who indulge in shirk, Allah s.w.t. will not forgive that sin, but he has not told us the quantum of punishment prescribed for them.

Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ لَنَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِالَّذِينَ هُمْ أَوْلَى بِهَا صِلِيًّا

19:70 for, indeed, We know best as to which of them is most deserving of the fires of hell.
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, September 30, 2008  -  5:19 AM Reply with quote
Yet I feel that the fillowing verse copntains hope for such people.

Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ نُنَجِّي الَّذِينَ اتَّقَوا وَّنَذَرُ الظَّالِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيًّا

19:72 And once again: We shall save [from hell] those who have been conscious of Us; but We shall leave in it the evildoers, on their knees.


Brother now we are back to square one, I have already answered this point before, i'll answer again. You are quoting out f context, look at the previous verses

(190: 68-72)
" So, by thy Lord, without doubt, We shall gather them together, and (also) the Evil Ones (with them); then shall We bring them forth on their knees round about Hell; Then shall We certainly drag out from every sect all those who were worst in obstinate rebellion against (Allah) Most Gracious. And certainly We know best those who are most worthy of being burned therein. Not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with thy Lord, a Decree which must be accomplished. But We shall save those who guarded against evil, and We shall leave the wrong-doers therein, (humbled) to their knees."


Now it is clear from the above verses that on the day of judgement everybody will pass through Hell, from where Allah says He will save those who guarded themselves against evil, and leave the evil doers there.

Maryam (Mary)

ثُمَّ لَنَحْنُ أَعْلَمُ بِالَّذِينَ هُمْ أَوْلَى بِهَا صِلِيًّا

19:70 for, indeed, We know best as to which of them is most deserving of the fires of hell.


Yes, that is what I have been meaning from the start. Only Allah knows the best, so how can we Muslims think that we'll go to heavens eventually, Allah hasn't promised anything like this, and besides there are two purposes of mentioning about Israelities in the Quran, 1st to revert the those astrayed Israelities present at the time of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , 2nd to make us Muslims learn from their example so we may not do the same. But unfortunately if you look around and think, you will see that we Muslims are pretty much repeating the mistakes Israelities made. Why? Because we donot know what the quran tells us.
NOw coming back I would say again "or is it that ye say of Allah what ye do not know?"
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, September 30, 2008  -  5:57 PM Reply with quote
quote:

.............so how can we Muslims think that we'll go to heavens .............


Because Allah is MERCIFUL, KIND, OFT-FORGIVING.
"whenever the sinner repents and turns to Him": cf., for instance, 6:54 "Your Sustainer has willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy - so that if any of you does a bad deed out of ignorance, and thereafter repents and lives righteously, He shall be [found] much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace"; or 4:110 - "he who does evil or [otherwise] sins against himself, and thereafter prays God to forgive him, shall find God much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace"


Az-Zumar (The Groups) 39:53

قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِن رَّحْمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

SAY: “[Thus speaks God:] ‘O you servants of Mine who have transgressed against your own selves! Despair not of God’s mercy: behold, God forgives all sins - for, verily, He alone is much-forgiving, a dis­penser of grace!’ ”
shah_625

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 02, 2008  -  1:39 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

.............so how can we Muslims think that we'll go to heavens .............


Because Allah is MERCIFUL, KIND, OFT-FORGIVING.
"whenever the sinner repents and turns to Him": cf., for instance, 6:54 "Your Sustainer has willed upon Himself the law of grace and mercy - so that if any of you does a bad deed out of ignorance, and thereafter repents and lives righteously, He shall be [found] much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace"; or 4:110 - "he who does evil or [otherwise] sins against himself, and thereafter prays God to forgive him, shall find God much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace"


Az-Zumar (The Groups) 39:53

قُلْ يَا عِبَادِيَ الَّذِينَ أَسْرَفُوا عَلَى أَنفُسِهِمْ لَا تَقْنَطُوا مِن رَّحْمَةِ اللَّهِ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَغْفِرُ الذُّنُوبَ جَمِيعًا إِنَّهُ هُوَ الْغَفُورُ الرَّحِيمُ

SAY: “[Thus speaks God:] ‘O you servants of Mine who have transgressed against your own selves! Despair not of God’s mercy: behold, God forgives all sins - for, verily, He alone is much-forgiving, a dis­penser of grace!’ ”


You never got my point did you?
What I have been meaning is that we Muslims very conveniently say that no matter what we do, we'll go to heavens eventually. Obviously if you repent and never do it again, Allah is Merciful. But if you look at the 2:80, and its context, you will see that the jews did all sorts of disobedience of Allah and then thought that even after doing this and not learning from their mistakes, they'll go to heavens.
Many, infact this is a common belief among Muslims that since we are Ummat of Muhamad, we'll goto heavens after spending some time in hell.
This idea is totally wrong, because until and unless you ask for forgiveness and never do those evil deeds again, Allah is not going to bless you.
Nadir

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Thursday, October 02, 2008  -  1:00 PM Reply with quote
9: 68.

وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الْمُنَافِقِينَ وَالْمُنَافِقَاتِ وَالْكُفَّارَ نَارَ جَهَنَّمَ خَالِدِينَ فِيهَا هِيَ حَسْبُهُمْ وَلَعَنَهُمُ اللَّهُ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُقِيمٌ

Allah has promised the hypocritical men and the hypocritical women and the unbelievers the fire of hell to abide therein; it is enough for them; and Allah has cursed them and they shall have lasting punishment (Azab un Muqueem).

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