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usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  6:05 AM Reply with quote
Yesterday I have heard on TV that Taqi Usmani Sahib has spoken to them but they are not listning any body.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  6:43 AM Reply with quote
Yes, I saw that too. But no statement so far. I wonder why?

Although I have a feeling that it is a political drama being played within the capital in order to divert attention from important issues, I also feel that because this drama is being played in the name of religion, its legitimacy must be publically questioned by the noteable scholars.

Raushan, I thought it was relevant as the verse specifically asks to "obey those in authority", because if we dont obey collective discipline, and follow and enforce our individual interpretations of law and religion, lawlessness and anarchy will inevitably result.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  7:25 AM Reply with quote
Maulana Saleem sahib, chairman wafaqul madaris has condemn them and have said that their action may harm the others madersas by the govt. in future.He also said that due to their involvement in these kind of issues, the whole academic years of the students of this institution is wested.Maulana Ashrafi from Lahore has also condem their action of taking the law into their hand.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  7:36 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I thought it was relevant as the verse specifically asks to "obey those in authority", because if we dont obey collective discipline, and follow and enforce our individual interpretations of law and religion, lawlessness and anarchy will inevitably result.

MashaAllah,thanks brother
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  7:40 AM Reply with quote
hadith narrated in bukhari , Kitab al-manaqib, hadith #3338 hadith says When people were asking the prophet about the goodness, i was asking about the evil in fear that it may get to me, so I asked "oh prophet of Allah we were in jahiliyah then Allah brought this goodness, will there be any evil after it?" the prophet said "yes there will", I said "will there be goodness after it?" he said "yes and it has some impurities" i asked "and what are its impurities?" he SAW said " people who guide without my guidance, you know of them and deny." I asked "is there evil after this goodness?" he said "yes, there will be preachers who preach for the doors of hellfire, whoever answers them they throw him into hellfire" so i said "oh prophet of Allah, describe them for us" he SAW said "they are from u and they speak from our language." so i asked "what should I do if i witness that?" the prophet SAW said "stick with the group of Muslims and their leader" i asked "what if they had no leader?" he said "if they had no leader or imam, then leave all these groups even if you had to bite on a tree until your death."
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I request participants for their views on the above.thanks
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  8:03 AM Reply with quote
From Tafheem-ul-Quran

(4:59) Believers! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger, and those from among you who are invested with authority; and then if you were to dispute among yourselves about anything refer it to Allah and the Messenger *89 if you indeed believe in Allah and the Last Day; that is better and more commendable in the end. *90

*89. This verse is the cornerstone of the entire religious, social and political structure of Islam, and the very first clause of the constitution of an Islamic state. It lays down the following principles as permanent guidelines:
(1) In the Islamic order of life, God alone is the focus of loyalty and obedience. A Muslim is the servant of God before anything else, and obedience and loyalty to God constitute the centre and axis of both the individual and collective life of a Muslim. Other claims to loyalty and obedience are acceptable only insofar as they remain secondary and subservient, and do not compete with those owed to God. All loyalties which may tend to challenge the primacy of man's loyalty to God must be rejected. This has been expressed by the Prophet (peace be on him) in the following words: 'There may be no obedience to any creature in disobedience to the Creator.' (Muslim, 'Iman', 37; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 3, p. 472 - Ed.)
(2) Another basic principle of the Islamic order of life is obedience to the Prophet (peace be on him). No Prophet, of course, is entitled to obedience in his own right. Obedience to Prophets, however, is the only practical way of obeying God, since they are the only authentic means by which He communicates His injunctions and ordinances to men. Hence, we can obey God only if we obey a Prophet. Independent obedience to God is not acceptable, and to turn one's back on the Prophets amounts to rebellion against God. The following tradition from the Prophet (peace be on him) explains this: 'Whoever obeyed me, indeed obeyed God; and whoever disobeyed me, indeed disobeyed God.' (Bukhari, 'Jihad', 109; 'I'tisam', 2; Muslim, 'Amarah', 32, 33; Nasa'i, 'Bay'ah', 27; etc. - Ed.) We shall see this explained in more detail a little further on in the Qur'an.
(3) In the Islamic order of life Muslims are further required to obey fellow Muslims in authority. This obedience follows, and is subordinate to, obedience to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). Those invested with authority (ulu al-amr) include all those entrusted with directing Muslims in matters of common concern. Hence, persons 'invested with authority' include the intellectual and political leaders of the community, as well as administrative officials, judges of the courts, tribal chiefs and regional representatives. In all these capacities, those 'invested with authority' are entitled to obedience, and it is improper for Muslims to cause dislocation in their collective life by engaging in strife and conflict with them. This obedience is contingent, however, on two conditions: first, that these men should be believers; and second, that they should themselves be obedient to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). These two conditions are not only clearly mentioned in this verse they have also been elucidated at length by the Prophet (peace be on him) and can be found in the Hadith. Let us consider, for example, the following traditions: A Muslim is obliged to heed and to obey an order whether he likes it or not, as long as he is not ordered to carry out an act of disobedience to God (ma'siyah). When ordered to carry out an act of disobedience-to God he need neither heed nor obey.
There is no obedience in sin; obedience is only in what is good (ma'ruf). (For these traditions see Bukhari, 'Ahkam', 4; 'Jihad', 108; Muslim, 'Amarah', 39; Tirmidhi, 'Jihad', 29; Ibn Majah, 'Jihad', 40; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 2, pp. 17 and 142 - Ed.)
There will be rulers over you, some of whose actions you will consider good and others abominable. Who even disapproves of their abominable acts will be acquitted of all blame, and whoever resents them he too will remain secure (from all blame); not so one who approves and follows them in their abominable acts. They (i.e. the Companions) asked: 'Should we not fight against them?' The Prophet (peace be on him) said: 'No, not as long as they continue to pray.' (See Bukhari, 'Jihad', 108 - Ed.)
This means that their abandonment of Prayer will be a clear sign of their having forsaken obedience to God and the Prophet (peace be on him). Thereafter it becomes proper to fight against them. In another tradition the Prophet (peace be on him) says:
Your worst leaders are those whom you hate and who hate you; whom you curse and who curse you. We asked: 'O Messenger of God! Should we not rise against them?' The Prophet (peace be on him) said: 'No, not as long as they establish Prayer among you: not as long as they establish Prayer among you.' (See Muslim, 'Amarah', 65, 66; Tirmidhi, 'Fitan', 77; Darimi, 'Riqaq, 78; Ahmad b. Hanbal, Musnad, vol. 6, pp. 24, 28 - Ed.)
In this tradition the position is further clarified. The earlier tradition could have created the impression that it was not permissible to revolt against rulers as long as they observed their Prayers privately. But the latter tradition makes it clear that what is really meant by 'praying' is the establishment of the system of congregational Prayers in the collective life of Muslims. This means that it is by no means sufficient that the rulers merely continue observing their Prayers: it is also necessary that the system run by them should at least be concerned with the establishment of Prayer. This concern with Prayer is a definite indication that a government is essentially an Islamic one. But if no concern for establishing Prayer is noticed, it shows that the government has drifted far away from Islam making it permissible to overthrow it. The same principle is also enunciated by the Prophet (peace be on him) in another tradition, in which the narrator says: 'The Prophet (peace be on him) also made us pledge not to rise against our rulers unless we see them involved in open disbelief, so that we have definite evidence against them to lay before God' (Bukhari and Muslim).
(4) In an Islamic order the injunctions of God and the way of the Prophet (peace be on him) constitute the basic law and paramount authority in all matters. Whenever there is any dispute among Muslims or between the rulers and the ruled the matter should be referred to the Qur'an and the Sunnah, and all concerned should accept with sincerity whatever judgement results. In fact, willingness to take the Book of God and the Sunnah of His Messenger as the common point of reference, and to treat the judgement of the Qur'an and the Sunnah as the last word on all matters, is a central characteristic which distinguishes an Islamic system from un-Islamic ones. Some people question the principle that we should refer everything to the Book of God and the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace be on him). They wonder how we can possibly do so when there are numerous practical questions involved, for example, rules and regulations relating to municipal administration, the management of railways and postal services and so on which are not treated at all in these sources. This doubt arises, however, from a misapprehension about Islam. The basic difference between a Muslim and a non-Muslim is that whereas the latter feels free to do as he wishes, the basic characteristic of a Muslim is that he always looks to God and to His Prophet for guidance, and where such guidance is available, a Muslim is bound by it. On the other hand, it is also quite important to remember that when no specific guidance is available, a Muslim feels free to exercise his discretion because the silence of the Law indicates that God Himself has deliberately granted man the freedom to make his decision.
*90. Since the Qur'an is not merely a legal code, but also seeks to instruct, educate, admonish and exhort, the earlier sentence which enunciates a legal principle is followed by another which explains its underlying purpose and wisdom. Two things are laid down. First, that faithful adherence to the above four principles is a necessary requirement of faith. Anyone who claims to be a Muslim and yet disregards the principles of Islam involves himself in gross self-contradiction. Second, the well-being of Muslims lies in basing their lives on those principles. This alone can keep them on the straight path in this life, and will lead to their salvation in the Next. It is significant that this admonition follows immediately after the section which embodies comments about the moral and religious condition of the Jews. Thus the Muslims were subtly directed to draw a lesson from the depths to which the Jews had sunk, as a result of their deviation from the fundamental principles of true faith just mentioned. Any community that turns its back upon the Book of God and the guidance of His Prophets, that willingly follows rulers and leaders who are heedless of God and His Prophets, and that obeys its religious and political authorities blindly without seeking authority for their actions either in the Book of God or in the practice of the Prophets, will inevitably fall into the same evil and corruption as the Israelites.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  9:46 AM Reply with quote
Thank you Usmani for elaborating on the Verse. I really loved reading Footnote # 90.

So the learning is that one must not "obey its religious and political authorities blindly without seeking authority for their actions either in the Book of God or in the practice of the Prophets" - Yes I agree. However, In a practical world, what to do if there is a disagreement between the authorities and me? Will I start an action against the authorities to enforce my will? Will I declare that I will not follow existing law from now onwards and will follow my own law? Does Islam permit my doing all that?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  12:50 PM Reply with quote
Dear Salman,

First thing is that the basis of disagreement must not be one’s own understanding of Quran and Sunnah but the if the understanding to learned scholars is differ from the rulers.Even then it is not good to take the law into ones hand act and behave like these people doing.One need to find the right forum and the right people to bring it to the authorities in a proper manner.

On the other hand I must say that some people only wish oppose the Mullah and company without going into details weather they are guilty or not..Even if a lady who happened to running a brothel can become innocent(If she was in reality doing it) just because Mullah and company is in the opposition.No one wait for the evident to come but were in very hurry to attack on Mullah and company.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  1:23 PM Reply with quote
I think one must always favor what seems to be fair and just. One should not oppose or favor anybody whether Mullah or secular, on the basis of which group they belong to. If there is merit in what is being said, it has to be accepted regardless of who says it.

Secondly, if the lady is guilty, we must make sure that the law deals with her accordingly, if it doesnt, we must draw the attention of law makers and enforcers towards it. We should write about it, do peaceful protests, envoke media etc. But never ever should we take law in our own hands. It causes lawlessness and anarchy. Imagine what would happen if I start killing everybody that I think deserves death penalty. And Imagine what happens if everbody starts thinking that way. It will be a lawless society.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  1:35 PM Reply with quote
And as your earlier comments suggested, their actions are even opposed by more learned scholars. So one thing is sure, that their actions are not legitimate from an Islamic point of view. They dont even have the consent of learned scholars against the rulers on it. So lets accept it the issue is not about Mullah vs. Secular. There is something else to it as well... A political drama by Govt itself?? Who knows...
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, April 09, 2007  -  8:16 PM Reply with quote
quote:

First thing is that the basis of disagreement must not be one’s own understanding of Quran and Sunnah but the if the understanding to learned scholars is differ from the rulers.


This is what the Christians used to say. As a result the ordinary man started relying on the priests and popes and got completed deviated from the true path. If today we Muslims shut off our brains and stop doing our own research and stop trying to interpret the Quran ourselves and totally rely on the 'so called learned' ones - then we are doomed just like the Christian nation who got misguided. Especially today when the learned ones are mostly like the mullahs we are talking about, we are better off without such 'scholars'.

quote:

Even if a lady who happened to running a brothel can become innocent(If she was in reality doing it) just because Mullah and company is in the opposition.


There is no evidence that she was running a brothel (other than the word of the mullahs). So we cannot say if she is guilty. There has to be evidence to prove guilt.

On the other hand the mullahs are already guilty of kidnap, extortion, and making threats. That is why we can conclude on their being guilty and not on the woman being guilty.

It is not because of the mullahs that we can say the woman is innocent. But it is because of lack of evidence.
salmant

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, April 10, 2007  -  6:27 AM Reply with quote
Quote: If today we Muslims shut off our brains and stop doing our own research and stop trying to interpret the Quran ourselves and totally rely on the 'so called learned' ones - then we are doomed just like the Christian nation who got misguided. Especially today when the learned ones are mostly like the mullahs we are talking about, we are better off without such 'scholars'.

Reply: Dear Oosman, we are having a very thorough discussion on what you wrote above in the thread "Taqleed as a way of following religion". It will be interesting for you to read, and you are welcome to add anything to it if you like....
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, April 10, 2007  -  7:51 AM Reply with quote
Salman:-I am totally agree with you what you have said in yours last few posts.

Oosman:-What ever these Mullah have done wrong I am not backing it but condemn it.As far as the issue of brothel run buy the lady is,the residents of that area had a press brifing just few days earlier where they said that this lady was infact running the brothel and thanks to Mullah and company for their efforts to remove them from their area.I can understand the pain they will be having living with family there.Normaly it is not easy job to remove this type of people.They use to have the so many power full people on their back even the people from police etc.
uhmelas

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 14, 2007  -  5:35 PM Reply with quote
The Lal masjid Mullah are ready for the dialogues.

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2007%5C04%5C14%5Cstory_14-4-2007_pg1_5
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, July 07, 2007  -  1:28 PM Reply with quote
http://www.express.com.pk/epaper/PoPupwindow.aspx?newsID=1100218714&Issue=NP_LHE&Date=20070707
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What is the islamic guidance about one who run away from the Jihad(in the middle of the battle)?
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 07, 2007  -  3:00 PM Reply with quote
O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them.
(Chapter #8, Verse #15)

Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey's end. (Chapter #8, Verse #16)

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