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raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  8:07 AM Reply with quote
tilawat,
lets be objective.
whom you think would be the final arbiter of good and bad and what will be the standard of judgement.
Ibrahimblicksjo

SWEDEN
Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007  -  11:29 PM Reply with quote
An answer to question 4 tilawat.
We as Muslims are not allowed to kill anyone just because he or she is not a Muslim. Quran is very clear on this point. If we do that without just cause, that is if the person have himself commited a crime that is under the law of deathsentence, then it is as we have killed the whole of mankind.

And if you read the history of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) you can clearly see what the people used to call him. Al-Amin and as-Sadiq even before he became a Prophet.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  12:32 AM Reply with quote
Ibrahim

You say:

"We as Muslims are not allowed to kill anyone just because he or she is not a Muslim. Quran is very clear on this point."

No dear it is not that clear. The observation, viz., 'killing of one man means killing of whole humanity' was actually made by the tribal god of Israel whereas his commandments for killing of the gentiles (infidels) were quite to the contrary.

What the people who claim to be Muslims have been doing does not support your assertion either.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  12:54 AM Reply with quote
Raushan

In case of Muslims the final arbiter of good or bad is none else than Allah, but the problem is the mullah, who has hajacked Islam to become a demi-god for the muslims, has banned communication with Him. So, as far as the muslims are cocerned, it is virtually the mullah who, acting as God, decides what is good or bad, nay, even who is kafir or muslim.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, February 22, 2007  -  7:06 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Ibrahim

You say:

"We as Muslims are not allowed to kill anyone just because he or she is not a Muslim. Quran is very clear on this point."

No dear it is not that clear. The observation, viz., 'killing of one man means killing of whole humanity' was actually made by the tribal god of Israel whereas his commandments for killing of the gentiles (infidels) were quite to the contrary.


will you be a little more generous to show why it is not clear.



What the people who claim to be Muslims have been doing does not support your assertion either.


Tilawat ,
Isnt it generalisation sort of thing.
The cleric living in your part of world doesnt represent the entire muslims and their views.
I hope you come out with some solutions as well.
Refuge,to me shows that someone interested only in problem and not in solutions.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, February 23, 2007  -  11:14 PM Reply with quote
Raushan

Excuse me dear; we are hear perhaps only to seek the truth and not to solve problems which even the prophets, numbering about one lac and choubees hazaar, could not solve. In fact, the Quran says that the humanity was once one ummah and it was the advent of the prophets which divided it into numerous ummahs. Verily the man is 'zalooman, jahoolan'. That is the truth stated in the Qurane Hakeem. The best proof of this is our beloved Pakland where only a few days ago a serial killer, self styled jehadi, moulvi Sarwar, murdered a woman minister of Punjab, Zile Huma, whose conduct he considered to be unislamic.
Ibrahimblicksjo

SWEDEN
Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007  -  8:59 PM Reply with quote
I just dont get it. You say you are here for the truth but in my eyes you are here with an oppinion and no matter what we say you are against it. What I said about the killing is the Truth in Islam. We are not allowed to go around killing people to the right and left. And to kall one another for kafir. Well prophet Muhammd (pbuh) gave a grave warning against this: "If someone calls another for kafir, then one of them must be it." I do not know what some mullahs do or not do. If they do not follow what Islam say then it is up to me NOT to follow them. Shall we blame Islam for what some of them do? If I drink a bottle of whiskey, sits in a car and start to drive it. Then I crash inot a ditch. Is it my fault or the fault of the car? Is it logical to blame the car? Or shall I perhaps blame myself for drinking the whiskey before I got in?
Ibrahimblicksjo

SWEDEN
Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007  -  9:16 PM Reply with quote
Another question:

You tilawat say: "In fact, the Quran says that the humanity was once one ummah and it was the advent of the prophets which divided it into numerous ummahs." My question to you is where do you find that it was because of the Prophets that this one ummah was divided? I want the tafsir from where you got this. Quran say: "Mankind was one single nation, and God sent messengers with glad tidings and warnings, and with them He sent the Book in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed." And further: " Mankind was but one nation, but they differed later." And this is what Yusuf 'Ali say in his comment to this verse: " All mankind was created one, and Gods Message to mankind is in essence one, the message of Unity and Truth. But as selfishness and egoism got hold of man, certain differences sprang up between individuals, races and nations, and in His infinite Mercy He sent them messengers and messages to suit their varying mentality, to test them by His gifts and stir them up to emulation in virtue and piety."
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, February 27, 2007  -  1:23 AM Reply with quote
Ibrahim

You quote yusaf Ali:

" All mankind was created one, and Gods Message to mankind is in essence one, the message of Unity and Truth. But as selfishness and egoism got hold of man, certain differences sprang up between individuals, races and nations, and in His infinite Mercy He sent them messengers and messages to suit their varying mentality, to test them by His gifts and stir them up to emulation in virtue and piety."

Very illuminating indeed! But the question is why he withheld his mercy since some 14 hundred years ago, as muslims believe, and stopped sending messengers. Has humanity become one nation now? In fact even so called muslim ummah has got divided into numerous sects, some of them involved in perpetual internecine strife. Even in the days of the 'Khaatimulnabiyeen' the very tribe of Quresh had got divided into various sects,e.g., Muslimeen, Mushrikeen, Munafiqeen, kafireen, to count a few, in addition to their tribal rivalries which continued unabated. So the world, turned into a global village, is decidedly the worst place to day than it was before the prophets started coming in. The man is still 'Zalooman, Jahoolan' (cruel and ignorant) but all the more destructive armed with nuclear weapons.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Tuesday, February 27, 2007  -  7:16 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Ibrahim

You quote yusaf Ali:

" All mankind was created one, and Gods Message to mankind is in essence one, the message of Unity and Truth. But as selfishness and egoism got hold of man, certain differences sprang up between individuals, races and nations, and in His infinite Mercy He sent them messengers and messages to suit their varying mentality, to test them by His gifts and stir them up to emulation in virtue and piety."

Very illuminating indeed! But the question is why he withheld his mercy since some 14 hundred years ago, as muslims believe, and stopped sending messengers.


very disgusting indeed.
the purpose of sending messengers is to convey the message and the final " message"is available in written form to any one who seeks mercy .The guidence and answers are there till the last day sun rises from east.So where is the question for new messenger?

quote:


Has humanity become one nation now? In fact even so called muslim ummah has got divided into numerous sects, some of them involved in perpetual internecine strife. Even in the days of the 'Khaatimulnabiyeen' the very tribe of Quresh had got divided into various sects,e.g., Muslimeen, Mushrikeen, Munafiqeen, kafireen, to count a few, in addition to their tribal rivalries which continued unabated. So the world, turned into a global village, is decidedly the worst place to day than it was before the prophets started coming in. The man is still 'Zalooman, Jahoolan' (cruel and ignorant) but all the more destructive armed with nuclear weapons.



In fact,the answer is precisely mentioned in the given verse, if you read the it before rushing to your conclusions.
wasnt it certain differences sprang up between nations that causes two world wars,and was not it the country but the egoism which dropped atom bomb on its rival ,what caused stallin to kill millions of his own people and its hate which drive hitler to kill a particular community.

If faith devides alone then who told the intellectuals of the global world to devide as agnostics,athiests,secularists,humanists and neo cons etc.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 28, 2007  -  2:02 AM Reply with quote
You say:

"very disgusting indeed."

The light of truth is very disgusting indeed for those who live in the darkness of their obscurantist sectarian faiths. The sun never rises from what you call east but it is the particular earth's rotation around its axis causing alternatively passing shadow and sunlight, which you call night and day. My question is: Can't God the almighty reverse this rotation? But how would you know that the sun has changed its rising from what you call 'from the east'? If He can, in your view, do that, He can also send another messenger as He has in His mercy, been doing previously, but how would you know that he is a genuine messenger or a false one, as the humanity is divided about the genuineness of even those who claimed to be so in the passed, thus causing internecine divisions among them?
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 28, 2007  -  2:12 AM Reply with quote
A correction in my previous post: Please read 'past' for 'passed' in the last but one line. Thanks!
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, February 28, 2007  -  9:00 AM Reply with quote
quote:


My question is: Can't God the almighty reverse this rotation? But how would you know that the sun has changed its rising from what you call 'from the east'? If He can, in your view, do that, He can also send another messenger as He has in His mercy, been doing previously,

Yes indeed,He ,not only reverse but CAN swing the rotation.
He can send just not the "another"but for infinite number of messengers for every newborn baby.

The final message is available in written to any one who seek guidence at his/her own freewill.This was not the case 'previously'.

quote:


but how would you know that he is a genuine messenger or a false one, ?

This is not the case for just a messenger but for any one who makes claim.
One can check the claims of the messenger or the Book on the established standards of the time.
quote:


, as the humanity is divided about the genuineness of even those who claimed to be so in the passed, thus causing internecine divisions among them?

Yes,that is quite natural.The differences in the opinions of the people is logical because it based on their own way of thinking and analysing things.

By the way its unique anology I come across here is that "since other differs about X,so X itself is wrong''.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, February 28, 2007  -  11:06 PM Reply with quote
Quote:

"The final message is available in written to any one who seek guidance at his/her own freewill.This was not the case 'previously'."

What final message: "that the man is 'Zalooman, jahoolan' and that "kullun ummatun ajlun musammah" (every nation has its appointed time)? So why to expect that Z.J. man to be amenable to reason, logic and simple common sense?
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, March 01, 2007  -  7:16 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:
What final message: "that the man is 'Zalooman, jahoolan' and that "kullun ummatun ajlun musammah" (every nation has its appointed time)?
So why to expect that Z.J. man to be amenable to reason, logic and simple common sense?

'Zalooman, jahoolan' are not the "entire final message" but adjectives used for a particular type of people in the context in a verse.
Anyone who is ready to apply his reason ,logic and simple common sense can find out who they are.
This is expected from those who are unbiased and neutral.
tilawat

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, March 02, 2007  -  12:37 AM Reply with quote
You say:
'Zalooman, jahoolan' are not the "entire final message" but adjectives used for a particular type of people in the context in a verse.

What is that context: will you please let me know?

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