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Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006  -  12:08 PM Reply with quote
Brother Waseem, you wrote:
According to sister Nida, ijtehaad in itself can only take place when their is ijmmah. Thus in practical reality their is no ijtehaad but ijmmah.

So are you supporting my statement or disagreeing with it?
And by the way, you've misunderstood me. I didn't say anything about Ijtihaad in this regard. I said something about Qiyaas, which is only a form of Ijtihaad. I didn't say that there cannot be any Ijtihaad without Ijma'; I said that in order for a thought (which is based on Qiyaas) to become part of the Sharee'ah or Islamic Law, Ijma' has to be performed on it, that is, it has to be agreed upon by the scholars.
So Ijtihaad can be performed alone, but it isn't a source of Islamic Law; whereas Qiyaas is a source of Islamic Law, and therefore Ijma' has to be performed on it for it to become an Islamic Law. It is based on reasoning like Ijtihaad, but it has something more to it: it comprises of Asl, Far and Illah.

Allah knows best.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006  -  1:47 PM Reply with quote
In that acse I misunderstood your explanation.I apologise for it.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006  -  6:51 AM Reply with quote
Walaikum Salam brother Waseem

Quote:-I have posted my understanding and defination of Sunnah and Hadith. I would be grateful if you could define sunnah and hadith, according to your understanding.

Here how I understand Sunnah and Hadith

Sunnah

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.

“Confirmation” in this definition is termed in Arabic as Taqreer. What is meant by this term is like somebody said something, or acted in a particular manner, and his saying or act came to the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (pbuh ) and he either confirmed it in express words or remained silent without given any indication of disapproval. Such silence, being an implied approval of the Holy Prophet (pbuh ) is also included in the term Sunnah.

Hadith

Ahadith is the wrriten record of Sunnah.It also contain some information which won’t be considred as Sunnah,Because it is not for the following of Ummah.

Quote:-The two additional sources of religion of shariah mentioned by you are ijmmah and ijtehad.


When I said Ijma I mean Igma of Sahabah.In the matter of deen if we can not find a clear solution from Quran and Sunnah then we must refer to Ijma of Sahaba.If the solution is not found in the Ijma of Sahaba. then the Ijtahad will took place.

Quote:-Regarding ijmmah,when and about what? if today the ummah developed ijmmah that eating non halal meat is ok, will it become an acceptable practice or part of religion.

If any order is already there in Quran and Ahadith then no one have authority to changed it.

Quote:-Shiaats belief in hadith source, that says Prophet PBUH said three times namaz, even without travel or war, so they say zuhr and asr together and maghrib and Isha together.Are we saying that ijmmah of scholars of a different sects, defining regulations for their individual sects.All these sects produce ahadith supporting their views, so are we saying a different regulation for different sects.

Brother you need to check this out from the people whom have good knowledge of Quran and Ahadith and they also must be well qualified in religious knowledge.Brother I will suggest you to keep in touch with such people on regular basis.

This work one only will do it if deen is his priory .If any one will see Allah on the day with such a confusion he has to prove Allah that he has did all his effort to remove these confusion and find the truth.

Quote:- Ijtehaad, can be used to find answers for simple queries, but not formulate shariah. For example. what we recite in namaz in third and four rakaats after Fatiha. There is no concrete guidance. some will say fatiha is enough others will say add some other verses after Fatiha as we do in the first two rakaats. Ijtihaad may mean one person doing something and the other doing another according to their understanding. Are we saying that our religion shariah is so flexiable and accepts different variants for different individuals.

I think this is not Ijtehaad this is how Imans understood the deen through Quran and Sunnah.Specially on this issue all four medhab are following the way of prophet(pbuh).

Quote:-In my very limited understanding, Allah has not created man blind and ignorant. Divine guidance has been given in those matters where there was a need that human beings will find difficulties in finding solution him self. When we look at Shariah, the Qur'an has given extreme punishments for 5 important crimes.

Brother have a look on the followings which I copy from some article.

There are specific injunctions in the Holy Qur’ân about sale, purchase loans, mortgage, partnership, penal laws, inheritance, matrimonial relations, political affairs, problems of war and peace and other aspects of international relations.

Likewise the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) deals with the economic, social, political and legal problems in such detail that voluminous books have been written to compile them. How can it be envisaged that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) entered this field in such detailed manner without having any authority or jurisdiction? The injunctions of the Holy Qur’ân and sunnah in this field are so absolute, imperative and of mandatory nature that they cannot be imagined to be personal advices lacking any legal force.

Quote:-Let us look at our participants of forum, we seem to have three main schools of thought.

1. those who think hadith can be used to determine shariah and regulations.

2. Those who totally nagate hadith.

3. Those who believe that the source of religion is QUr'an and sunnah and hadith is the historical record of Prophet PBUH life, likes and dislikes, and provides explanations given by prophet PBUH of QUr'an and sunnah.

If you see how the Ummah is following your above there school so according to my knowledge following statistics will be observed.

1)More than 90%

2)Less than 1%

3)Less than 0.0000001% (in fact followers of Javaid Ahmad Gahmdi only following this, so it may be more less in reality)

Quote:-So my very dear brother in Islam where is the ijmmah of the ummah on hadith and its authority.Which is a prerequisite of your defination.

Have you seen the Ijma?Do our own study if think is not correct.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006  -  7:04 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Brother Ibraaheem, I know that the Prophet (SAW) had said that he was going to leave two things behind: The Holy Qur'an and his Sunnah. But the fact of the matter is that Ijma' and Qiyaas are also sources of Islamic law because they are derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah themselves. e.g., the Qur'an does not prescribe a punishment for drinking wine, but through Ijma' only do we get to know that the punishment is 80 lashes, which, if I'm not wrong, was proposed by 'Ali (RA).
Sister Nida, It loks that U've NOT tried to understand FULLY my explanations about IJMAA' & QIYAAS, plz Read them again carefuly. thanks.
Ijmaa' (of Ummah) is the Process thru which we've recieved both Quran & Sunnah & Ijmaa' of Scholors is a NOTHING thing. It had never happened in our WHOLE history of more than 1400 yrs.
In ur Given Exmpl. Ijmaa' is bringing an Addition in Quran & Sunnah. If a Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?
plz Note that the punishment for drinking wine was Diff. in the ERA of Prophet & was 40 lashes in the Era of Hazrat Abu Bakr & There are MANY Scholors After Harat Umar who have DIFF. opinion in this regard. Why Not u've a Research on it?
quote:

Qiyaas is also a source of Islamic law, but it is done on an individual basis, and therefore in order for Qiyaas to become law, Ijma' has to be performed on it. Drugs are considered Haraam today through the practice of Qiyaas only. And by the way, Qiyaas is different from Ijtihaad. The former is based on Asl, Far and Illah, whereas the latter is simply the use of one's intellect in a certain matter/issue.
U r right that Qiyas is Done on Individual Basis so the Law based on Qiyas Shud be ONLY 4 that person who is Doing it OR 4 those who agree w him. Am i right sister?
A Qiyas can only become a National LAW provided their Parliament passes it. Otherwise it'll remain a personal Opinion.
No no, u r Not Right here. Ijtihaad can ONLY be done on the Basis of Qiyaas (based on Quran & Sunnah) & Qiyas is NOT possible without using Intellect. How wud U derive a Relation between Asl & Far'? How can U do it without using ur intellect?
quote:

And the Holy Qur'an itself, as many scholars understand it, points out the four sources of Islamic Law:
"O you who believe! Obey Allah (Qur'an), and obey the Apostle (Sunnah), and those charged with authority amongst you ('Ijma' or the consensus of scholars' opinion); if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Apostle ('Qiyaas' or analogy based on the Qur'an and Sunnah)..."
I'm afraid sister, this Verse DOESN'T PROVE ur Pt. of View. It may be ur Understanding of the Words "and Obey those charged with authority amongst you" that it means "Ijma' or the consensus of scholars' opinion" BUT it's NOT the Actual Meaning of these words. My Simple Objection on ur Understanding will be that "How the consensus of scholars" will FALL in the category of "Obey those charged with authority amongst you"? What Authority these Scholors have? OR it means that Only People of Authority can do Ijtihad/Qiyas & Ijma is Concensus of these type of People?
One of ur Pt. is Right from this verse that I've Described earlier That Only THAT Qiyas will be Followed which will be approved by those "who are charged with authority amongst us" & these days this implies to "parliament" only.

Wassalaam, and Allah knows best.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006  -  11:35 AM Reply with quote
In my humble opinion, Qiyaas is an individual interpretation of a matter, which has not identical but similar explanation in Qur'an and Sunnah. Ijtehaad is an individual interpretation based on a matter , where we have no similar example in Qur'an and Sunnah.

The definition of deen is that it is an " Abad i hidayat" Divine Guidance sent from Allah to the people through His Prophets and messengers.

How can human intellect become a source of religion.It defeats the definition of deen. We can do Qiyaas and Ijtehaad but it may be different for one person and different for other. SO what will remain the authencity of deen. Deen can not be man made.

Ijmmah can be one of the three

1. Ijmmah of ummah that something is from Qur'an

2. Ijmmah that something isfrom Sunnah.

3. Ijmmah that it is neither in Qur'an and Sunnah, but ijmmah on an individual scholars qiyaas or ijtehad.

If ijmmah is on QUr'an then we are agreeing that something is in QUr'an thus the source of religion remains Qur'an and not Ijmmah.

If the ijmmah is that something is from Sunnah then again we are agreeing that the source of religion is sunnah and not Ijmmah.

If the Ijmmah is on a scholar's qiyaas or ijtehaad. Then again it is an individual person's intellect. It cannot be divine guidance from Allah.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006  -  1:23 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
Ijmaa' is bringing an Addition in Quran & Sunnah. If an Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?

My Holy God! I NEVER SAID THAT! You tell me one thing, bro: How can Ijmaa' possibly be wrong if it's based on the Qur'an and Sunnah itself?!!

Are you a sectarian?---(i.e., if you don't mind me asking...)

And you know what? I'm NO-ONE, ok?---simply NO-ONE to judge all this. On this matter, all I can say is that I'm trusting my intellect, and I'm trusting the Lord of the Worlds to forgive me if in case my intellect is in error.
And there is no power nor might, except with Allah; and only He knows best.

Wassalaam.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, December 19, 2006  -  4:35 AM Reply with quote
Brother Ibrahim

Quote:-If a Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?

What is your source to say that Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) cannot ADD/Subtract.If you can not give a satisfactory reply on that with the help of Quran and Sunnah, so it will means that you give more importance to yours scholars than Quran and Sunnah.

May be you get away here by not replying or give a answer which is not backed with Quran and Sunnah,but get ready to answer this to Allah on the day when no one can run away.

Edited by: usmani790 on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:36 AM
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, December 19, 2006  -  12:23 PM Reply with quote
Respected brother in Islam salam

you have quoted

Sunnah

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.

So every word and action of the prophet pbuh is sunnah, and if deen is Quran and Sunnah, then they are also deen.

Brother! the regulations for prophets of Allah, their accountability for small mistakes (un-intentional) is different from those of the common man.
Tahajad namaz was compulsary for the prophet pbuh, not for the ummah. The stipulation for marriges for the prophet pbuh, the reasons for them, the regulations for divorce ( prophet pbuh could not divorce them) and the regulations for the wives of the prophet pbuh (they could not marry someone else)are unique for the prophet pbuh.None of these regulations apply to ummah, so how can we say that every action and word of prophet pbuh is his sunnah, which would then mean it is essential following.

What about this hadith from sahih muslim, kitab ul fazil

" I am a human being like you, when I give you any religious commands, accept it. When I say something of my personal opinion, remember tht I am nothing but a human being. I had only guesed. Do not accept from me that which is based on guess work.[regarding the fertilisation method of date palms] However when I convey something from Allah, follow it because I will never attribute anything falsely to Allah falsely. As regards your worldly affairs, you are more knowledgeable then I am." I guess you will term it zaif or unreliable as it is contradictory to your definition of sunnah.
brother , according to this hadith, we are to follow the prophet pbuh in religious matters and not every matter, according to him.

What about prophet pbuh likes and dislikes. I quoted the incident about Khalid bin Wleed, eating a lizard, that the prophet pbuh disliked, he asked is it haraam, the prophet pbuh said no, and he ate it. He is a well respected sahabha.was he breaking sunnah?

Regarding the authencity of hadith. Firstly, the most important sahabha that we can think about are hazrat abu bakr and hazrat Umar, hazrat Ali and hazrat Usman . We can see how keen they are in getting QUr'an copied and circulated, they do not make any efforts to organise hadith.

Qur'an addressers us as the believers, muslims, followers of our prophet Mohammad pbuh, not as sunni, shiaat, malike, shafi, humbli or hanfi.

Shiat form a sizeable fraction of muslims, in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan. They interpret Islam according to hadith from hazrat Ali and their chosen sahabha. They cannot find authencity for their beliefs from Qur'an of course.

When it comes to Qur'an, ummah has ijmmah about the content of Qur'an, we may have differences in the interpretations of these verses. SO how does sects come about. through hadith. The ones that agree with a particular sect are authentic, the rest are zaif or unreliable. When I ask you about hadith from Hazrat Ali that shiaat believe, you would say they are not authentic. and vice versa. I repeat where is the ijmmah of ummah on authencity of the content of hadith.

One thing further brother,Where in Qur'an has Allah substantiated hadith as a source of deen. On one hand we define deen as abdi hidayat, divine guidance to mankind through prophets. kept in Loh i mahfooz and brought down by Hazrat Gabriel. The Qur'an that Allah has taken responsibility of looking after. On the other hand we have stories, transmitted through generations, peoples narratives, not even written with permisison of prophet PBUH. not written in the life time of prophet pbuh. not written for years after the death of prophet pbuh. The difference is immense. We believe Islam is the final religion. Why would Allah use such strict means for the nazool of Qur'an and then let rest of teh deen be transmitted in such a casual way through hadith.

When I spoke to one scholar about the authencity of hadith, he replied, the hadith that are against the content of Qur'an and Sunnah are zaif. So we are saying that this is a source of religion which actually contains hadith that contradict Qur'an the word of ALlah and sunnah of prophet pbuh. How we decide right from wrong. The ones that seem more agreeable to our belief or are sect. the rest are zaif.

My respected brother in Islam. I am amazed, sitting at home you have looked into the hearts and mind of every muslim in the entire world, approx 1 billion and come up with statistics of some thing like 0.0000001% believe in Javaid Ghamidhi. I wish I could collect and present statistics like this too.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, December 20, 2006  -  10:55 AM Reply with quote
Brother Waseem

I wrote:-
Sunnah

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.

You wrote:-So every word and action of the prophet pbuh is sunnah, and if deen is Quran and Sunnah, then they are also deen.

Reply:-Brother please read what I have said carefully than say some thing.Your long comentray on what I have not said is wasted.I said (for the following of Ummah).I think the words in braket makes it very clear.

Quote:-One thing further brother,Where in Qur'an has Allah substantiated hadith as a source of deen.

Reply:-Ok, where in Quran has Allah substantiaated Quran as a souce of deen.

Have a look on the following verses,these versces I have quoted for you before as well,never mind see them one more time.Actually the first verse is alone good enough to answer you.

And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He shall admit him to Fire where he shall remain forever. (4:14)

And whoever makes a breach with Allâh and His Messenger, then Allâh is severe in punishment. (8:13)

And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)

And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)

And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)

Today we have Quran the words of Allah and today we have ahadith the words of Prophet(pbuh).So all the authentic ahaith are as source of deen as Quran.My last sentence is in full compliance with the verses above. What else you need brother.I am not saying on baseless whims like you said here without quoting a single verse of Quran.

If this is not enough for you and you further wish to discuss this important issue with me,I will request you to please go to the forum (Wrong Understanding of Sunnah in this course) in the couse forum and see what have already been discussed there.

Quote:-My respected brother in Islam. I am amazed, sitting at home you have looked into the hearts and mind of every muslim in the entire world, approx 1 billion and come up with statistics of some thing like 0.0000001% believe in Javaid Ghamidhi. I wish I could collect and present statistics like this too.

You could prove me wrong if you could find just five well known scholars of current times who also think that ahadith are not the basic source of religion.

May Allah show us the straight Path.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, December 20, 2006  -  1:24 PM Reply with quote
brother Usmani salam

You have asked me where it says in Qur'an that it is a source of deen. I do not understand, What do we think Qur'an is then? WHat do we think it contains? Who are those instructions for.

It is God Who has sent down the Book in truth that is the Mizan…….. (42:17)

Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan to His servant that it may be an admonition to the people of the world. (25:1)

surah Ibrahim verse 1 (O'Prophet) we have given you this Book so that you can bring people from out of (spiritual) darkness into (spiritual)light.

Secondly, can you share with us the list of what you think is Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.

Thirdly! the issue that I have is the authencity, reliability, contradictions, diversity and the manner of collection and making it a source of deen. Hadith is khabar i wahad. so ONE PERSON says for example the prophet pbuh said eating something is haram. THis is not mentioned in Qur'an. This is not written in the time of the prophet pbuh, but many years later, this information is passed down 4,6 8 chains of narrations of one person each. Now , I am being asked to accept this as deen. Then I find that shiaat and sunni have their own hadith and the followers of different sects and imams accept only certain hadith. My understanding is that deen is an abad i hidayat. Allah would not transmit deen i haq this way. We may agree to disagree on this. I saw the book of kitab i fazayal for tablighi jammat, based on ahadith. They have contributions from the prophet pbuh, if you read these three surah 10 times , you will get reward as if you have fasted for 30 years . In other words, I do not need to fast again for the rest of my life. When you say Obey Allah and obey the prophet pbuh, If for example a muslim was 100% sure that something was said by prophet pbuh and instructed as part of deen, then it becomes compulsary to follow. You have not grasped the issue where we disagree.

My respected brother in Islam! you initilly stated that 0.0000001% of ummah fagrees with Javaid Ghamidhi,now you are asking about 5 scholars. Well there are scholars of Islam that have studied and completed their studies in Islam and have TV programmes that agree with the Understanding-Islam approach started by Farahi and Islahi. They have degrees and qualifications but then you will say in your opinion you do not accept their qualifications or degrees.

I must clarify here I do not follow Javaid Ghamidhi. I am interested in reading about any good scholar of Islam and I respect anyone who strives in the path of Islam.I would appreciate haq irrespective of its source. Javaid Ghamidhi is a human being and has faults and limitations. This is not a new sect. It is a thought process and approach to understand Islam, not started by him but Farahi and Islahi. I read Moudoodi, Dr Israr, Waheeduddin Khan.and we must respect these people who have dedicated their lives for Islam.

Javaid Ghamidhi has been a part of Islamic nazriati council, he has been on TV in Pk. his institution currently has 5 different web sites, organisational work is being undertaken in UK and teh web sites have members all ove rthe world.

The problem that I see my very respected brotehr in Islam is that Ghamidhi, will appeal to a selected audiance. He believes in questioning teh authencity and also rationale and logic. He is against sufism and blind following. He encourages his students to question and disagree with him. He is the only scholar that I know, who tells his students to go and listen to other scholars too and do not become " kuneey key mendak" "frogs of the same watering hole".
The reason that he is disliked is that he wants to seperate religion from culture. He wants to concentrate on the purpose of religion, the essence of prayers, not whether your shalwar is of a certain length.

The problem that people have today, is that we are brought up in a scociety and culture of pre formed ideas.We percieve truth , from these pre formed ideas. Any thing that is different, is wrong, becasue so and so says so. We need to have the strength and ability to break these pre formed bounderies to our thinking, and we may see things differently. What I am saying is that truth does not have to be of a certain colour only to be truth.

Brother! let me first in saying that I am not and will never say that I am right and everyone else is wrong. What I find in the forum is that whenever someone has a different opinion, we jump and say he is an idol worshipper and ....... ( I do not mean you personally brother).

Let us all pledge to be the followers of truth and seek the path of truth. Let us ask Allah to show us all the right path and the strength to adhere to it.I strongly believe that who seek truth with a pure heart will find it. If you are comfortable with what you know, alhamdulilah! may Allah give you more knowledge and strength, my only request is never shut the door . At present , this is what I believe in, but I pray to Allah to show me the right path, if it is something different then direct me to it.

I may be wrong but Aristotle was asked about what is dear to him the most He replied." Socrates is dear but truth is dearer" ( I may have muddled the two other way around). This my dear and respected brother in islam should be the approach of a true believer (in my opinion). If I have transgressed the bounderies of religion or offended you I apologise.

Allah knows best.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006  -  8:00 AM Reply with quote
brother Waseem Walikum Salam

Quote:-You have asked me where it says in Qur'an that it is a source of deen. I do not understand, What do we think Qur'an is then? WHat do we think it contains? Who are those instructions for.

Same words can also be used for ahadith but you are un-necessarily making it way of transmission irreliable.Brother I have full trust on Allah and Quran and what its says each and every of its words.May be I am wrong but how you appear on the issue of ahadith,I felt that you do not have such trust on Allah and Quran which one Muslim must have.

Brother firstly you are seeing religion with the eyes of Javaid sahib’s school and with your own intellect.You need to develop you own school which must be based on Quran and Sunnah (Authentic ahadith) only and used you intellect to leave it whoever says and what so ever if it apper good but if goes agaisnt Quran and Sunnah(Authentic ahadith)

Quote:-Secondly, can you share with us the list of what you think is Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.

It is not possible for me do present the list of Sunnah here.Every authentic hadith for the following for ummah is Sunnah.It is not necessary that every Sunnah must be obligatary nature.

Quote:-Thirdly! the issue that I have is the authencity, reliability, contradictions, diversity and the manner of collection and making it a source of deen. Hadith is khabar i wahad

That’s where I find you are doing mistake, thinking that every hadith is Khabar-ul-Wâhid.How can you think like that just because your own self or only Javaid Ahmad Saheb amoungst the scholars in this planet says so and not giving any importance to what a very big majority of scholars classfying ahadith diffrently?.That includes Maulana Maudoodi Saheb,Muti Taqi Usmani Saheb,Muti Muneeb-ur-Rehman,Yousuf estes,Dr.Farhat Hashmi(Phd on Ahadith).These all Scholars defined Sunnah as I had defined earlier.You name a scholar of this height and you will find that he won’t look on ahadith like you are looking.I will request you to visit the following link of an article written by Mufti Taqi Usmani.Please see what he has to say for the Preservation of Sunnah.

The Preservation of Sunnah

It is totally wrong to say that the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was compiled for the first time in the third century. In fact, the compilation had begun in the very days of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) as we shall see later, though the compilations in a written form were not the sole measures adopted for the preservation of the sunnah. There were many other reliable sources of preservation also. In order to understand the point correctly we will have to know the different kinds of the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

http://www.ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap3.html

Quote:-so ONE PERSON says for example the prophet pbuh said eating something is haram. THis is not mentioned in Qur'an. This is not written in the time of the prophet pbuh, but many years later, this information is passed down 4,6 8 chains of narrations of one person each. Now , I am being asked to accept this as deen.

Brother you can one ignore every one on that but how can you ignore Allah Him self.When Allah Him said that what Prophet(pbuh) says follow it.My dear brother it will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy once its establish through Quran that what Prophet says for the following of ummah is deen on the other hand and make its discovery impossible.Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise

Now the things you have mentioned regarding the ahadith are not written in the time of the Prophet(pbuh) and its transmission.Firstly I would say that you are assuming things or just believing on some one blindly.If you will see the article above certainly it will help you to understand it better.

Quote:-I saw the book of kitab i fazayal for tablighi jammat, based on ahadith. They have contributions from the prophet pbuh, if you read these three surah 10 times , you will get reward as if you have fasted for 30 years . In other words, I do not need to fast again for the rest of my life.

Brother the source of knowledge what we have from Quran and through Prophet(pbuh) are some thing beyond the humen capacity.What is our believe that there is another life where we have to life forever .This could be as difficult to believe and understand for a person who did not have faith.That’s why I feel that there is need for us to join the gathering of some learned people who can give us answers of our questions and remove our misconception regarding the authenticity of ahadith and many other issues of deen.

Quote:-When you say Obey Allah and obey the prophet pbuh, If for example a muslim was 100% sure that something was said by prophet pbuh and instructed as part of deen, then it becomes compulsary to follow. You have not grasped the issue where we disagree.

Brother main hardle of this “100% sure “ is mainly your wrong concept regarding the preservation of ahadith.When this will resolved, I hope the overall issue of ahdith will be more easier to understand.

Quote:-My respected brother in Islam! you initilly stated that 0.0000001% of ummah fagrees with Javaid Ghamidhi,now you are asking about 5 scholars. Well there are scholars of Islam that have studied and completed their studies in Islam and have TV programmes that agree with the Understanding-Islam approach started by Farahi and Islahi. They have degrees and qualifications but then you will say in your opinion you do not accept their qualifications or degrees.

I was talking about the most famous scholars like I gave five names above.Ok you can give even the past famous scholars names.My small study show that four great Imans of Fiqa and many more of past and presents scholars do not sees ahadith as you sees.Infact whom ever I study I found him on almost the same point of view as mentioned in the article of Taqi Usmani Saheb.

Quote:- This is not a new sect. It is a thought process and approach to understand Islam, not started by him but Farahi and Islahi. I read Moudoodi, Dr Israr, Waheeduddin Khan.and we must respect these people who have dedicated their lives for Islam.

I think this is going to be a new sect if its follower will start growing.IF you could do me a favor to bring some thoughts of Imeen Ashan Aslahi saheb on this particular issue to Ahadith that how he used to see ahadith of today.

Quote:-The reason that he is disliked is that he wants to seperate religion from culture. He wants to concentrate on the purpose of religion, the essence of prayers, not whether your shalwar is of a certain length.

Who ever will try to keep away from the ahadith he could certainly will think like that.But the problem comes with these people when Quran it self go against them.They failed to find a single verse of Quran in their support.

Quote:-The problem that people have today, is that we are brought up in a scociety and culture of pre formed ideas.We percieve truth , from these pre formed ideas. Any thing that is different, is wrong, becasue so and so says so.We need to have the strength and ability to break these pre formed bounderies to our thinking, and we may see things differently.

There are certainly some problems of man made concepts which some people gave them unnecessary importance here but if some one think that length of shalwar is not a issue of deen then it is stated in the basic source of deen that it is a issue.

Quote:- my only request is never shut the door . At present , this is what I believe in, but I pray to Allah to show me the right path, if it is something different then direct me to it.

Brother one never shut the door of any knowledge whom ever its comes from but it must be in compliance of Quran and teaching of Prophet(pbuh) then one will never go wrong.This is the policy I am following.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006  -  8:23 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Quote:
Ijmaa' is bringing an Addition in Quran & Sunnah. If an Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?

My Holy God! I NEVER SAID THAT! You tell me one thing, bro: How can Ijmaa' possibly be wrong if it's based on the Qur'an and Sunnah itself?!!
Sis u r Not understanding my point. Ijmaa' of Ummah JUST provide us the Continuty of Quran & Sunnah with Surity. According to us Ijmaa' is Not an opinion based on Quran & Sunnah, its Just a Process of transmission.
quote:

Are you a sectarian?---(i.e., if you don't mind me asking...)
Surely I don't mind BUT what do u mean by that i.e. by sectarian??? I'm Just a Simple Muslim who tries to Follow God's Last Book; Quran & the Final Version of God Given Practices known as the Sunnah of our Beloved Last Prophet (pbuh) ( & we have its Record Since the Time Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh)
quote:

And you know what? I'm NO-ONE, ok?---simply NO-ONE to judge all this. On this matter, all I can say is that I'm trusting my intellect, and I'm trusting the Lord of the Worlds to forgive me if in case my intellect is in error.
And there is no power nor might, except with Allah; and only He knows best.
Sis. Same is the case of Mine. We r answerable ONLY & ONLY for what we Understood from Quran & Sunnah using our Intellect. That's why we always Pray that:
Our Lord! Show us RIGHT as Right & Give us the Power to Follow it AND Show us Wrong as WRONG & Give us the Power to Avoid it. Ameen

Wassalaam
in sha Allah see u All now After my Hajj trip on Feb.6, 2007
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006  -  9:55 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Brother Ibrahim
What is your source to say that Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) cannot ADD/Subtract. If you can not give a satisfactory reply on that with the help of Quran and Sunnah, so it will means that you give more importance to yours scholars than Quran and Sunnah.

May be you get away here by not replying or give a answer which is not backed with Quran and Sunnah, but get ready to answer this to Allah on the day when no one can run away.
Brotheer usmani
Well, for it My Source is the Ijmaa' of whole Ummah. This ummah has declared their this belief Since the Death of the Last Prophet till today & it is Totally based on Quran as well.
Quran Declared itself as the"Furqaan"(3:4&25:1) & "Meezan" (42:17&57:25) for all religious Matters. It means that Every thing will be tested b4 Quran & be PUT under it. Nothing Can Overrule Quran wheather it is an Authentic Hadith or Opinion of any Greatest Scholor.
2ndly, in 4:59 it has been ordered to us that in case of any " Tanaazu" (Difference of Opinion etc.) we shud Go back to Allah (via His book Quran) & Hia Rasool (via his Sunnah & not his Ahadith)
3rdly, Prohet himself was Bound to Follow the Sunnah (Millat e Ibrahim) 16:123

thanks Brother for the Reminder. I'm Ready to Face My Lord at least in this Regard.
I'm sorry, i'll Not be available for Further discussion for next 45 days due to my Hajj Trip.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006  -  10:14 AM Reply with quote
I asked you if you're a sectarian because sectarians (Sunnis, Shias, etc.) differ in these matters of Ijmaa' and Qiyaas.

But anyway, may Allah be with you for the trip to Hajj and may He forgive you all your past sins (which I'm sure He will).

Wassalaamu 'Alaikum Wa Jazaakumullaah.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006  -  10:49 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-I'm sorry, i'll Not be available for Further discussion for next 45 days due to my Hajj Trip.


My all prayer for a save jurney and for the good health there to performed all the manasik-e-Hajj.Its Allah who select people for His House.You are one of those lucky people.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006  -  4:01 PM Reply with quote
brother usmani salam
many thanks for taking the trouble to answer. Respected brother in Islam, I have read your arguments.I remain a student of religion and continue to seek the truth. at present , i am not convinced that deen that Allah has said is divine guidance sent to prophets and transmitted to prophet pbuh via angel Gabriel in the shape of Qur'an from Loh i mahfooz can also be interpreted by diverse ahadith narrated by diverse individuals. Ahadith povide explanation of religion but , in my humble opinion are not source of religion.

Why is there a difference in collection of ahadith by Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daoud? on what criteria do you negate the ahadith form hazrat Ali.because they are contrary to the sunni belief. If we believe in one group we cannot accept ahadith form the other group.

I am content at present with what I know, but remain inquisitive to always know more reasons for and against.I am glad that you are also clear in your thinking , in what you believe is right. May ALlah show us both the right path. Ameen.

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