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Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, April 05, 2006  -  2:43 PM Reply with quote
like I said before,the interpretation and application of shariah is NOT shariah.

Any mufti or mullah should say "According to my understanding of Quran" drinking alcohol is haram instead of simply saying alcohol is haram.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, April 05, 2006  -  8:33 PM Reply with quote
did you hear about the two muftis in pakistan, each had his radio station, and they were broadcasting and calling the other mufti a heretic. The pakistani army bombed the radio station!
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, April 06, 2006  -  6:08 AM Reply with quote
Brother Shan

Following is a link to for the better understanding the Sharih and Fiqh.
http://members.cox.net/arshad/fiqhandshar.html
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, April 06, 2006  -  6:14 AM Reply with quote
Army did the right thing if they were doing that.

But I am sure that not all the Muftis are like that.There Good and Bed peoples every where.
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, April 06, 2006  -  10:35 AM Reply with quote
Brother usmani790,

I strongly disagree with the author of the link you provided.

He has said, "The term SHARI'AH means all of the Islamic Laws. For a practicing Muslim it is also necessary to understand that there are 4 basic sources that the Shari'ah is derived. {1} The Holy Quran {2} Sunnah {3} Ij'ma {consensus} of the Companions {Sahabah} may Allah be pleased with them all. {4} Qiyas {Analogical deduction}."

The shariah is what was revealed to prophet(pbuh) and he passed this on to his companions and his companions passed it on to the later generations of muslims by the process of tawatur.

There are only two sources of shariah i.e. (1). Quran and (2). Sunnah

Narratives ascribed to the prophet(pbuh) are related to shariah but not part of shariah.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 07, 2006  -  11:35 AM Reply with quote
Brother Shan,
Quote:-I strongly disagree with the author of the link you provided.

He has said, "The term SHARI'AH means all of the Islamic Laws. For a practicing Muslim it is also necessary to understand that there are 4 basic sources that the Shari'ah is derived. {1} The Holy Quran {2} Sunnah {3} Ij'ma {consensus} of the Companions {Sahabah} may Allah be pleased with them all. {4} Qiyas {Analogical deduction}."

The shariah is what was revealed to prophet (pbuh) and he passed this on to his companions and his companions passed it on to the later generations of Muslims by the process of tawatur.

Reply:-I gives you an example here. There is no order to keep beard in Quran.But we find this in the sayings of Prophet(pbuh) or in (Sunnah) to keep bear. But still the size of beard is not there in the Sunnah.Then we go for the third option since no information is available 1)in Quran and 2) in Sunnah regarding the size of beards. This we find in the 3)Sahabah.

Now I give you another example here. The world is changing rapidly. Organ transplantation is possible now and this going on for quite a long time. Now the direction for organ transplant is not there in 1) Quran 2)Sunnah 3)Action of Sahabah.Now only left the forth option 4) Qiyas.This would be carried out by Scholars of today. Islam is a religion forever. So Islam must be able to give the answer of today’s and tomorrow’s needs.

Both these examples will fall under the Shariah.So Sharia is rightly defined up there.

Edited by: usmani790 on Friday, April 07, 2006 12:11 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, April 07, 2006  -  1:56 PM Reply with quote
dear usmani790,

I am afraid you are confusing shariah and fiqah, as two are different things. The two examples you have given are not shariah, but they are fiqah (the application of shariah). Shariah is only what is directly in the holy Quran or in the Sunnah. Any other thing (ijma, qiyas, any derivation of rules from shariah) is fiqah.

And Allah knows best.
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 07, 2006  -  2:14 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Reply:-I gives you an example here. There is no order to keep beard in Quran.But we find this in the sayings of Prophet(pbuh) or in (Sunnah) to keep bear. But still the size of beard is not there in the Sunnah.Then we go for the third option since no information is available 1)in Quran and 2) in Sunnah regarding the size of beards. This we find in the 3)Sahabah.


Beard and other hairs grows naturally on almost all men's faces.You don't have to cultivate your face to grow beard.There is no concept of keeping beard,keeping eyebrows,keeping hair of other body parts.. in shariah.That doesn't mean that one can shave off beard,eyebrows,etc.. in ordinary situations!!!What will one answer to God on the Day of Judgement about this act ? I didn't like beard on my face so I shaved it,etc..God will judge the person.

The sunnah is shaving or trimming the moustaches,pubic area,under armpits,head after umra and hajj as these are passed on by the consensus of the sahaba(ra)


quote:

Now I give you another example here. The world is changing rapidly. Organ transplantation is possible now and this going on for quite a long time. Now the direction for organ transplant is not there in 1) Quran 2)Sunnah 3)Action of Sahabah.Now only left the forth option 4) Qiyas.This would be carried out by Scholars of today. Islam is a religion forever. So Islam must be able to give the answer of today’s and tomorrow’s needs.



I never said that Qiyas is not to be done.Quran and Sunnah are the guidance for all mankind till qiyamah.Qiyas is done with the help of Quran and Sunnah.That doesn't mean that Qiyas in itself is a source of shariah.

Qiyas is done by mujtahids and qiyas of a mujtahid is bounding upon those who accept it.Its not bounding upon all the muslims of all times like the shariah is.
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, April 07, 2006  -  2:20 PM Reply with quote
btw, I friend gave me a link to this video, it is half hour long so watch it if you have time and good internet. It is about unifiying the different sects of Islam

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9031181739160070561&q=ishaq&pl=true
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 08, 2006  -  12:30 PM Reply with quote
Brother Ooman,I will check it again.

Brother Shan, I will respond to you afterward.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 08, 2006  -  12:41 PM Reply with quote
Brother Ibrahim and Brother Tariq Hasmi

Assalam Alikum

Both of you are failed to respond to my posts here. Yours concept of Sunnah looks to me a very serious innovation in Islam.You are so far failed to present the sayings of any leading scholar specially of past in view of backing your defination of Sunnah.I am a lay man in the field of Quran and Sunnah that’s why I have presented the views of four great Imams and others famous scholar of past and present days scholars regarding the concept of sunnah. If I accept your view of Sunnah then Sariah, Fiqa, looks to me an innovation in the religion.Because these all mostly base on the Ahadiths

Quote: - The IMPORTANCE of Hadith is that this is the BEST & SAFEST Record of our beloved prophet's "SEERAH" & his "USWAH" so WHO will DARE to PUT it ASIDE? Surely we are NOT among those

You says that Prophet has left on two thing 1) Quran 2) Sunnah and you also says that Hahith (Which we found today in written record) have no roll in Sunnah.Since in yours concept of Sunnah you don’t find "SEERAH" & "USWAH” of Prophet (pbuh) so you also hesitant to leave aside the hadiths,and accepting hadiths as third source. Do you think that without following the "SEERAH" & "USWAH" which we get from the Ahadith, we could achieve salvation? Do you think that we don’t have any responsibility towards peoples in the society, how should we behave with the people, how should we deal with others. Do you think that Prophet(pbuh) did not teach this to his companions? Or you think that this also has been practically transferred through generation to generation. The condition of Muslims is not hidden from me and you how they behave with others, how honest we are today in any matter concerning to society, you know that how good we are. Is this what Prophet thought to Sahaba?

Can we understand Quran fully without the prophetic explanations.Have a look please. (From the book of Molana Taqi Usmani)

We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.

The word “Zikr” has been used here for the Holy Qur’ân as has been used in the verse 15:9 and it has been made clear that the people can only benefit from its guidance when they are led by the explanations of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).

Again, the words “for the people” indicate (especially in the original Arabic context), that the Holy Prophet’s (pbuh) explanation is always needed by “everyone.”
Now, if everyone, in every age is in need of the prophetic explanation, without which they cannot fully benefit from the Holy Book, how would it be useful for them to preserve the Qur’ânic text and leave its prophetic explanation at the mercy of distorters, extending to it no type of protection whatsoever.
Therefore, once the necessity of the prophetic explanations of the Holy Qur’ân is accepted, it will be self-contradictory to claim that these explanations are unavailable today. It will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy to establish the necessity of the sunnah on the one hand and to make its discovery impossible on the other. Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
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How much the Ahadiths were important for Sahabah.Have a look please.

Anas reported that the Messenger of God said: "I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold fast to them: the Book of God and my Sunnah." (Reported by Haakim.) The Companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, used to hold the commandments given by the Prophet, peace be upon him, in a very high esteem, making no distinctions between them and those given by God. Once 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood quoted this saying of the Prophet (hadith) while he was delivering a sermon: "May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God." A woman named Umm Yaqub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas'ood and said: "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women." He said: "Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet, peace be upon him, cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well." She said: "I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e. the whole Qur'an)." Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse?
"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7)
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Let us see what the four great Imams (i.e. religious scholars) have said about the authority of the Sunnah. (As per my definition)

a) IMAM ABU HANIFAH was asked: "What do we do if we find a saying of yours opposing the Book of God?" He replied: "Leave my saying and stick to the Book of God." The questioner asked: "What if it contradicts a saying of the Prophet?" Abu Hanifah said: "Leave my saying in the face of the Prophet's saying." Again he was asked: "What if it goes against the saying of a Companion?" Again he said: "Leave my saying in the face of the Companion's saying." (Reported in Al-Qawl al-Mufeed by Shawkani.) Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: "My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic." (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.)

b) The saying of IMAM MALIK IBN ANAS is well known: "The saying of any person can be accepted or rejected, except for the Prophet of God, peace be upon him." (Reported by Ibn 'Abd al-Barr and Ibn Hazm. Also in Al-Yawaqeet wa Al-Jawahir 2:96.) He also said: "I am just a mortal; sometimes 1 am wrong, sometimes I am right - so check my opinions. Whatever agrees with the Book (i.e. the Qu'ran) and the Sunnah, accept it; whatever disagrees with them, reject it." (Reported by Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 72.)

c) Once IMAM SHAFI'I narrated a saying of the Prophet (hadith). Someone from the audience said: "Do you say so as well?" On hearing this, the Imam was enraged. His face turned pale and he said: "Woe to you! Which earth would carry me, which sky would shelter me if I narrate a saying of the Prophet, peace be upon him and do not hold the same view! Do you see a zunnar (belt worn by non-Muslims)on me? Or have you noticed me coming out of a church? How can I report something from the Prophet, peace be upon him, and not agree with ?!!"

d) IMAM AHMAD IBN HANBAL said: "Do not follow me or Malik or Shafi'i or Auza'i or Thawri, but take from where they took (i.e. from the Qu'ran and authentic Sunnah)." (Reported by Al-Fulani and Ibn al-Qayyim.) He also said: "He who is on the verge of destruction rejects a saving of the Messenger of God, may the peace and blessings of God be upon him." (Reported by Ibn al-Jauzi.)

Shuaib reports that Allaah's Messenger (saws) said, "When the people of
Paradise enter Paradise, Allaah, the Blessed and Most High, will say 'Do you
wish for anything extra that I may give you?' They will say 'Have You not
brightened our faces? Have You not entered us into Paradise and saved us from
the Fire?' So He will remove the screen and they will not have been given
anything more beloved to them as looking at their Lord, the Mighty and
Majestic." Reported by Muslim (Eng. trans. 1/114/no. 347) and others.

Hanbal said: I spoke to Abu 'Abdullaah, meaning Ahmad (ibn Hanbal) about
seeing Allaah (ar-Ru'yah). He said, "They are authentic ahaadeeth. We have
Faith (Eemaan) in them and affirm it. We have Faith in and affirm everything
reported from the Prophet (saws) with good chains of narration." Reported by
al-Laalikaa'ee in Sharh Usool I'tiqaad Ahl is-Sunnah (no.889).
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please give a second though to your definition of Sunnah. This is not in line with Quran, Prophetic sayings, Sayings of Sabah, Great scholors of Islam.I don’t have any doubt in the intentions of yours, but what I felt wrong, I have presented here.

Allah Hafiz.
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, April 08, 2006  -  1:58 PM Reply with quote
Dear usmani790,

I would like to make some comments. First I would like to ask you to watch the video link I posted above.

Now it is agreed that we need to follow the directives of our prophet (s.a.w.). But the problem is the hadith literature contains some very conflicting accounts of his directives and how can we be sure something is what he really said. I understand you hold the four high imams in great esteem, and you follow their work, and also Imam Bukhari, Muslim, Dawood. But there are other muslims, example Shias, who might not hold their work in high esteem, and they have their own hadith literature from other scholars and great aalims. They will swear that the narations that came to them are authentic. Now whose hadith are you going to follow? In order to make an unbiased judgement, you must first study the other scholars work also (like Shia s).

Another thing I would like to add, about the innovation in religion, not every innovation in religion is bad. For e.g. tarawih prayer is an innovation, doing the adhaan twice for juma prayer is innovation, the imam speaking on the podium for khutba is an innovation, and the list goes on. An innovation that enhances the beauty of the religion is not bad.
maskxone

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, April 08, 2006  -  7:09 PM Reply with quote
Assalam Alaykum,
Brother oosman I would like to understand your concept of good innovation. Does it mean adding something to the corpus of religion?
Or do you mean innovation is fine until we know that it is innovation and not part of the religion which Prophet left for us.

Also I would like comments that why did the classical definition of Sunnah became so popular? Why muslims started taking Ahadith Compilation as Sunnah and many scholars since long have believed in the classical definition of Sunnah.

Best Regards

Edited by: maskxone on Saturday, April 08, 2006 7:10 PM
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, April 12, 2006  -  6:34 AM Reply with quote
Brother Oosman

Quote: -But the problem is the hadith literature contains some very conflicting accounts of his directives and how can we be sure something is what he really said

Reply: -Brother we are not qualified to interpret hadith correctly. Thats why some times its looks to us that hadith conflicting each others. This happened with me as well but when I had check it with any Alim to whom I know, I always been given the satisfactory clarification on that. If we have some illness, we never attempt to take Madison our own, we always look for doctor for it. This Hadith is also is not easy subject. If Deen is our priority, we have to find those people on regular basis who can explain things to us.We have to check our from heart that, are we coming to net for acquiring the knowledge? or just to do chit chat here.Any new information, which I use to got from here, I try to double-check with peoples to whom I have trust. In Internet we don’t know who is sitting on other side, we just simply can’t rely on it. Allah sees how serious we are in acquiring the knowledge of deen or any other matter, once He sees that we are serious, He always help us by guiding us to the right people and the right litrature. Have a look on the followings.
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that not every Muslim can be a scholar. Scholarship takes a lot of time, and for the ummah to function properly most people must have other employment: as accountants, soldiers, butchers, and so forth. As such, they cannot reasonably be expected to become great ulama as well, even if we suppose that all of them have the requisite intelligence. The Holy Quran itself states that less well informed believers should have recourse to qualified experts: So ask the people of remembrance, if you do not know (16:43). (According to the tafsir experts, the people of remembrance are the ulama.) And in another verse, the Muslims are enjoined to create and maintain a group of specialists who provide authoritative guidance for non-specialists: A band from each community should stay behind to gain instruction in religion and to warn the people when they return to them, so that they may take heed (9:122). Given the depth of scholarship needed to understand the revealed texts accurately, and the extreme warnings we have been given against distorting the Revelation, it is obvious that ordinary Muslims are duty bound to follow expert opinion, rather than rely on their own reasoning and limited knowledge.
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Quote: - Another thing I would like to add, about the innovation in religion, not every innovation in religion is bad. For e.g. tarawih prayer is an innovation, doing the adhaan twice for juma prayer is innovation, the imam speaking on the podium for khutba is an innovation, and the list goes on. An innovation that enhances the beauty of the religion is not bad.

Rely: -According to Prophet(pbuh) sayings, follow my Sunnah and Sunnah of my rightly guided Caliph.Abu Bkr (RA), Umer (RA), Usman (RA), Ali (RA) are the rightly guided Caliphs of Prophet (pbuh). All the innovations you have mentioned belongs to these four Caliphs.Other than these four no one can introduce any innovation in the religion.

Allah Hafiz
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, April 12, 2006  -  11:37 AM Reply with quote
assalam alaikum,

quote:

According to Prophet(pbuh) sayings, follow my Sunnah and Sunnah of my rightly guided Caliph


This hadith is very strange, are you sure it is authentic? How could the prophet say this about the rightly guided caliphs, because he did not assign anyone to be the leader after him!

Also if you talk with the Shia Muslims, you will fall into dispute regarding this hadith as they do not regard these 4 caliphs to be the rightly guided ones.

Please check the source of this hadith.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, April 12, 2006  -  11:41 AM Reply with quote
Brother Shan

quote:


Beard and other hairs grows naturally on almost all men's faces.You don't have to cultivate your face to grow beard.There is no concept of keeping beard,keeping eyebrows,keeping hair of other body parts.. in shariah.That doesn't mean that one can shave off beard,eyebrows,etc.. in ordinary situations!!!What will one answer to God on the Day of Judgement about this act ? I didn't like beard on my face so I shaved it,etc..God will judge the person.

The sunnah is shaving or trimming the moustaches,pubic area,under armpits,head after umra and hajj as these are passed on by the consensus of the sahaba(ra)
quote:



Reply:-Agreed


quote:


I never said that Qiyas is not to be done.Quran and Sunnah are the guidance for all mankind till qiyamah.Qiyas is done with the help of Quran and Sunnah.That doesn't mean that Qiyas in itself is a source of shariah.

Qiyas is done by mujtahids and qiyas of a mujtahid is bounding upon those who accept it.Its not bounding upon all the muslims of all times like the shariah is.


Reply:-I agreed that sources are only two, Quran and Sunnah.Qiyas is not a source but a process to find the answer to those things which we can't find in the Quran and Sunnah like Human organ transplant.Qiyas is in accordance with the Prophetic sayings.(Sunnah)

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