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usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  7:54 AM Reply with quote
Quote-Answer this, do you think Robin-hood philosophy of stealing from the rich to give to the oppressed is ok in Islam? Because that is exactly what these fundamentalist clerics believe in - to retaliate with random killings on the weak and defenseless civilians of other countries. Why don't they attack the enemy's military, why do they go for the defenseless people? Does Islam justify this?

>>>No it’s not to the best of my understanding. But this philosophy does not apply to the people who are involved in killings of civilians. They killing civilians because others killing their civilians. Why they don’t attack enemy’s military because they don’t have enough power to fight with them but in their home land they also fight with the occupied military and invading military. Their point of views what I understand so far is that the civilians of these countries are fully responsible of their Govts. actions.

Quote-Do you not realize we can never be successful if our tactics are unjust. Just because they kill our civilians, we cannot be justified in doing the same thing to their civilians.

>>>I 2nd your opinion. But if this situation I ever face, I am not sure now that what I will do that time.

Qoute: -Ends do not justify means, both ends and means should be justified and in accordance with Allah's laws. Those clerics and fundamentalists who twist and distort Allah's laws, may Allah curse them. Please stop supporting these people!

>>>I never support them; I condemn their action for motivating peoples to any thing, which against the Allah’s laws. But I always feel pain for those Muslim brothers in Kashmir, Palestine, Chechnya, Bosnia and where ever Muslims brutally murdered and those who are still alive but their life have become so miserable. I am very shame full to them that I never did any practical effort to minimize their suffering.
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  3:45 PM Reply with quote
>>> Their point of views what I understand so far is that the civilians of these countries are fully responsible of their Govts

Response: Their point of view is very wrong that the civilians (including little children who are killed) are fully responsible for the government's action. We are Muslims, better actions are expected from us.

In WW2, USA bombed Japanese civilians and UK bombed Berlin killing many innocent people. USA and UK won the war by killing mass civilians of the enemy. Such a behavior is not acceptable from Muslims, because we are supposed to value human life. Any Muslim who kills others without justice, he/she has commited a big sin, and we should not support their ideologies or actions in any way, lest Allah shows us His anger.

If we are weak and cannot fight the invading armies, then it is our own fault that we let our guards down. The proper way to deal with this situation is to do what Rasool-Allah did, to migrate to a safer place and get strong.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  5:06 PM Reply with quote
Respected brother in Islam,
Oosman,

Fundamentalist = A person who follows the fundamentals. i.e. the fundamental teachings of a field (Islam in this case) .
(Not the western media interpretation which is misinterpreting this word)

(And don't jump to conclusions this time. You over reacted to my last post. And mentioned things I didn't even refer to and you even tried to bury my head in the sand . And I am not apologetic . I face the facts and hear both sides of the story but if you love to talk like this, these words are being recorded. Every class of people you label as a terrorist is being noted down. ALLAH is watching us all . I would try to show more patience and note the fact that I can't label people and try to follow the instructions given in Surah Hujrat . There is a difference between raisning voice and raising terrorism. Raising voice means raising awareness of the ground realities and hearing and explaining both sides of the story.

Terrorist = Who does terrorism, kills innocent people etc..

What americans did in Abu Gharib prison?
What Indians are doing in Kashmir?
What Israelis have done to Palestenians?
What America has done to heroshima and Nagasaki?
What Americans etc.. have done in Iraq, Afghanistan etc...
If you count any kind of measures like innocent deathtole etc.. they would far outnumber the Muslim cases.

I won't mention the few cases of Muslim terrorism, as we have alot of people highlighting and magnifying these instances and ignoring the massive terrorism doe by others. Now I won't use bad words like burying the head in the sand.

And don't blame any Muslim or group of Muslims without sufficient proof and evidence. Bomb blasts could have been done by non-Muslims as well .

I would apppreciate if you are more tolerant, and don't label people without suifficient proof. Moreover labeling a whole class of people like Maulvis, etc.. can have bad consequences at judgement day for your records of deeds .

Edited by: asim2 on Thursday, September 22, 2005 5:10 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  7:04 PM Reply with quote
I did not label a whole class of people like mullahs. That is your misunderstanding. I know some very good mullahs who taught me Arabic and Quran.

We already know about terrorism of US, India, Israel. We already denounce it, we condemn it.

But we also need to talk of the terrorism done by our so called brothers in the name of our religion. We need to tell them what they are doing is wrong and not sanctioned by Allah. If we claim the West is doing terrorism on us, then what are the Al-Qaida people doing to West in the name of Islam? I hate it when Al-Qaida, or Chechen warlord, or Hamas people use the name of my beautiful religion to do wrong things not sanctioned by Islam. They use a legitimate cause (fight against oppression on Muslims) and twist it and distort it and wreack havoc on everone, all in the name of Islam! I have never known a more misguided group!

>>> If you count any kind of measures like innocent deathtole etc.. they would far outnumber the Muslim cases

Dear brother, we are not here to count who killed more. In the words of Allah from Quran majeed, if you kill one person unjustly, it is like you killed entire humanity. so if it is one killed, two killed, or million killed, it is just as wrong.

>>> I won't mention the few cases of Muslim terrorism

Few?!!! I think you are denying the truth again! Please wake up and see what your brothers are doing.

>>> And don't blame any Muslim or group of Muslims without sufficient proof and evidence.

There is plenty of evidence and sufficent proof. I have myself read how the hijackers planned their plot, I read many details of their years of plotting and attempts. It is a fact that they did it. Plus, as if that is not enough, Al-Qaida has many times claimed responsibility for it. What more do you want, now you even have word of so called Muslims? Are your eyes still closed? If you were really interested in finding out the truth, you would at least try to find out why these attacks happened in the West and who did it, and why they accuse us. At least I tried to find out, but you choose to ignore it. Why?

I was reading how Khalid Sheikh Mohammed plotted the first WTC bombing that was unsuccessful. He even plotted downing several passenger airliners over the Pacific ocean, but he failed. In one of his test runs, he planted a timed bomb under his seat. When the plane took off again, someone else was sitting in his seat, and this poor passenger died in the test explosion. Such are these Muslims, they have no regard for human life, in who they kill. Why do you keep hiding and ignoring these things? How will we ever learn?

>>> Fundamentalist = A person who follows the fundamentals. i.e. the fundamental teachings of a field (Islam in this case) .

There are many definitions of the same word. Your definition is correct, and my definition is also correct. In my context I used my definition.
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Friday, September 23, 2005  -  1:49 AM Reply with quote
TO OOSMAN ONLY
I DISAGREE WITH YOU VEHEMENTLY. YOU HAVE BECOME MAD JUST FOR YOUR PERSONAL BENEFITS.
Abinzain

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Friday, September 23, 2005  -  1:49 AM Reply with quote
TO OOSMAN ONLY
I DISAGREE WITH YOU VEHEMENTLY. YOU HAVE BECOME MAD JUST FOR YOUR PERSONAL BENEFITS.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, September 23, 2005  -  11:53 AM Reply with quote
Brother Abinzain,
You shouldn't label Oosman as mad. Nor label that he has done it for personal benefits. These things can make one pay in the Hereafter.

Oosman, brother I don't want to go into any discussion, specially with you, just the facts may be mentioned by me.

Evidence filled friendly discussion in which both parties respect each other and try to present their evidence and open mindedly read other people's evidence .

Any way here is one of the thousands of facts of violence against Mislims.
Taken from:
www.islamicparty.com

quote:


Press Statement: Police assault Muslim in custody for calling them racist 24 - August - 2004

After having arrested the son of Islamic Party general secretary Dr Sahib Mustaqim Bleher for calling a police officer racist when they couldn't find anything wrong with his car, Milton Keynes police abused the 19-year old law student Abdu-l-Muqtadir Mustaqim when holding him in custody for more than 8 hours without feeding him or giving him water. When he was finally released and charged with using offensive language in public as well as possession of an offensive weapon, a small ornamental Arabian-style pocket knife his father had gifted him for his 10th birthday and which he kept in his car's glove compartment, he was severely bruised in the face, the wrists and the shins and is currently being assessed at Milton Keynes General Hospital's accident and emergency department. He intends to file a case against the police and his father, who was Imam at the High Security Prison Woodhill in Milton Keynes for over eight years commented: "They have only proven the allegation of racism by the way they manhandled him today. On the one hand the police ask the Muslim community to cooperate with them in the fight on terror, on the other hand they are terrorising the community and are breaking down any remaining trust irrevocably."


Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, September 23, 2005  -  12:01 PM Reply with quote
Another article, a must read for every unbiased person reading this forum.
http://mathaba.net/0_index.shtml?x=268123
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, September 23, 2005  -  1:29 PM Reply with quote
Dear Asim, I never denied there is violence against Muslim civilians, women, and children. My point is very simple. Please try to understand. If non-Muslims commit violence on Muslims, it gives Muslims no excuse to commit violence on non-Muslim civilians who were not involved in the conflict. We should direct our struggle towards the oppressor only, not towards others who have nothing to do with it. We are Muslims and we should not fall down ot the same level as the oppressors. We are the middle nation.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, September 24, 2005  -  7:50 AM Reply with quote
Quote: -The proper way to deal with this situation is to do what Rasool-Allah did, to migrate to a safer place and get strong.

>>> Rasool-Allah migrated to Madina with one or two hundred campanions. Here the invaders have occupied two Nations.How two Nations can be migrated? and where? Impossible.

The only way it seems to me to keep fighting with the invaders and others Muslim Nations should come forward and help them with every means possible. There are forums in the world like UN.As we are aware that there are already resolutions of UN in the favor of Palatine and Kashmir since long. But the Israel and India are not following them. Only recently the things are start moving towards the resolution these disputes.

I hope and pray to Allah that in other place wherever Muslims are suffering by the invaders, things will move towards the peace full resolution.

Infect here I feel here a great need of interfaith dialogue between religions on a global scale. This would help all followers of different religions to understand each other in batter way and keep an eye on our Govt’s. actions.This would help all to life in the harmony rather than fighting with each other.
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, September 24, 2005  -  3:58 PM Reply with quote
We all know the UN is not good for helping Muslims in conflicts. Infact under their very watch Bosnians Muslims were slaughtered.

Self defence is allowed in Islam, and we are ordered to do it infact. But we have to be careful we do not transgress the limits set by Allah and Rasool when we do self-defence. The modern day terrorism involving killing of innocent people on the street, blowing up worshippers in Shia mosques, blowing up bus passengers and hijacking plans; this is clearly transgressing the limits set by Allah.

2.190 And fight in the Way of Allâh those who fight you, but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 01, 2005  -  8:22 AM Reply with quote
Quote: - Self-defense is allowed in Islam, and we are ordered to do it infect. But we have to be careful we do not transgress the limits set by Allah and Rasool when we do self-defence.
>>>Thats what Taliban are doing, US had attack on them and they are fighting in self-defense. US knows that Taliban were not involved in 9/11so they started propaganda against Taliban to gain sympathy of the World.There may be some facts in their propaganda but we being a Muslim must not support their propaganda. The rape cases used to take placed in US, the rate is much higher if we compare it with Afghanistan.

Quote-The modern day terrorism involving killing of innocent people on the street, blowing up worshippers in Shia mosques,

>>> I do agree with you their name may be like Muslim but their action told that who are they infact. Atleast not Muslims (Allah knows best)

Quote: -blowing up bus passengers and hijacking plans; this is clearly transgressing the limits set by Allah.

See brother here we have to differentiate between these two peoples. First one who carried out terrorism being their profession or no knowledge of Deen, the second group do this because they also are victim of this.We simply can not blame them because the rest of Muslims including us are not fulfilling our responsibilities we owe to them being a Muslim in this situation.
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, October 12, 2005  -  3:15 PM Reply with quote
Quote: >>> the second group do this because they also are victim of this

I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that if someone kills your family, you are justified in killing the killer's family? As far as I know in Islamic law, only the killer would be punished, not the killer's family.

What these people are doing, killing civilians of other countries - is same as killing the killer's family. Because they cannot get to their oppressor who sit safely behind green zones and fortified barriers or drive around armor plated tanks, they instead kill their civilans and the enemy soldiers' families in their home country.

That is transgressing Allah's limits.
khaledgr8

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, October 13, 2005  -  7:43 AM Reply with quote
Asalmoaliekum All,

I want also make contibution in this discussion."May Allah guide us in right Path".

Most of people in this group think that the evil act of killing innocent poeple is a conspiracy from west to defame muslims.If it is right then it is the whole responsibilty on Muslim Umma that after downfalling from world rule from 200 year we are being mad by westerners.It is the fault of us.

If these attack didnt performed by muslim then why Assistant of Usama "Aiemen uz Zaharwi " released video tape regarding acceptance of this act.Crime always done in hidden way.No one come to tell that tomarrow we are goin to blast.
The purpose of my saying we are beating everywhere in the world so there will be a definate reason for this.It is that we have left the right path which GOD had given us.

We should first examine ourself then others.WE are Invitor of GOD true religion.If this duty has to be performed then we will have to up from all these baised dogmas, because our religion teaches us lesson of Peace.

If Khalid bin Walid ( rz) who was amongst top enemies of Islam can accept islam and can get the title of "Sword of Islam" then may be Top leader of West could convert to Islam , becuase GOD only knows the inner intension of people.

Regards,

Syed Sharif Uddin (khaled)
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, October 15, 2005  -  5:51 AM Reply with quote
Quote:-I do not understand what you mean. Are you saying that if someone kills your family, you are justified in killing the killer's family? As far as I know in Islamic law, only the killer would be punished, not the killer's family.

>>> What I have notice that you are feeling more pain for nonmuslims innocent victims than Muslim innocent victims. Being a Muslim how would you justified this in the light of religion.
khaledgr8

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 17, 2005  -  7:12 AM Reply with quote
Asamoaliekum,

You mean we should kill nonmuslims if they are killing us.Justify your point in the light of Quran Majeed.Being a muslims how would u feel to kill innocent people whatever religion they have.Kindly justify.

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