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angeln

UNITED KINGDOM
Topic initiated on Friday, September 19, 2003  -  6:01 AM Reply with quote
Castes in Islam


Assalam u alaikum everyone..i would just like to know everyones view on castes..the caste system is now common amongst muslims especially pakistani muslims where the castes 'rajput, choudry, jatt' etc are very common..are these castes acceptable in Islam? and is there any mention of them anywhere

someone called aminah from a site called beauty of islam
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, September 19, 2003  -  8:47 AM Reply with quote
Classification of mankind in different branches is endoresed both by reason and revelation. Not only the the Holy Qur'an alludes to this segregation rather it hints towards the basic widom of the phenomenon. It says:

O mankind! We have created you from a male and a female, and have made you nations and tribes that you may know one another. Lo! the noblest of you, in the sight of Allah, is the best in conduct. Lo! Allah is all-knowing, all-aware. [49:13]
ayesha

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, September 19, 2003  -  11:33 AM Reply with quote
However, castes should play absolutely no role in social relationships.
Ronnie

USA
Posted - Saturday, September 20, 2003  -  12:33 AM Reply with quote
Although the Qur'an has given us a sense that there are various people with differing backgrounds, I cannot agree that the "caste" system is merely a simple classification of human groups. Actually, from my information, I find that the "caste" system is merely a concept that places certain groups of people as superior and inferior. While the Qur'an has posed the beauty in our differences it has also reminded us that no one is better than another except throught their works. Castes on the other hand, it seems to me, a classification for repression and disparagement. If this is the case then I see no plausible harmony between castes and what the Qur'an has stated.



Edited by - ronnie on September 20 2003 00:34:43
Tariq Hashmi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, September 20, 2003  -  8:13 AM Reply with quote
Thank you Ronnie. I stand corrected. I thought it basically connotes the sense.
imsam

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Monday, September 22, 2003  -  9:08 PM Reply with quote
salaams

Ronnie's reasoning is correct. It is welcoming that the moderator is prepared to accept and admit an oversight. This programme will certainly go a long way, insha'allah.



friend- yusufgee (Yusuf gamieldien)
Razi Allah

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, September 22, 2003  -  10:09 PM Reply with quote
Since you have referred particularly to the prevalent caste system in Pakistan, i can present some observations from my experience. While it is true that there is nothing inherently wrong in the caste system for the purpose of 'knowing one another', people tend to harbor certain preconceived notions, usually negative, about a particular caste, and judge the entire group accordingly with a naive and mock disregard for individual differences. This i have seen pervasive even among the educated people.
There are certain practices related to marriage and intermingling, based on the caste system, that breed inequality, intolerance and an air of superiority. Some of the most vile aspects of Hindu caste system are well-entrenched within the Pakistani society.
Ordinarily, one will find people justifying every act via a convenient route i.e. Islam. Just as Islam has allowed every man to marry 4 women, please no ifs and buts, Islam also allows us to divide ourselves into castes, no ifs and buts.
Ronnie

USA
Posted - Sunday, October 05, 2003  -  11:05 PM Reply with quote
Salam,

Indeed there is no prohibition in dividing ourselves. I don't think that has been a point of contention. I would, however, posit that the nature of some of these castes are contrary to Islamic principles. Not only are they used to segregate people based on prejudice and hatred but they are also contrary to Islam's concept of equality of humanity. The only division is that of the righteous and the evil doer. The Children of Israel created such a caste; they elevated themselves and cast out the world. Division is not inherently evil or wrong but as implemented in most castes (that I know of) is without a doubt contrary to the Truth.

Regards
Razi Allah

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 06, 2003  -  4:53 AM Reply with quote
AOA Ronnie,

I think my last statement caused some confusion. The statement was:

Ordinarily, one will find people justifying every act via a convenient route i.e. Islam. Just as Islam has allowed every man to marry 4 women, please no ifs and buts, Islam also allows us to divide ourselves into castes, no ifs and buts.

It was a sarcasm not directed at anyone here but at the attitude that chooses to overlook the spirit behind Islamic directives. Just as there is a wisdom behind directives related to polygyny, so is there a wisdom in the division of people in nations and tribes. The attitude of summoning such verses of the Quran at convenience, disregarding the real purpose and spirit i.e. no ifs and buts accepted, was what i was sardonically referring to. Otherwise, as my post shows, we are in complete agreement.

I apologize for my highly opaque prose.

Regards
Ronnie

USA
Posted - Monday, October 06, 2003  -  11:04 AM Reply with quote
Salam,

Razi Allah, I won't lie but the sarcasm went way over my head. See that's what happens when a third grader tries to comprehend Shakespeare ;) I did misunderstand and that's my fault for not taking the time to read what you wrote correctly. It is blatantly clear what you were saying and I apologize for the misunderstanding. I love the prose, opaque and all so keep it the way it is.

Ok, I guess we've cleared up the issue and I'm gonna' go before this becomes more of a charm fest.

Salam and Jazaka'Allah for everything.
Razi Allah

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, October 07, 2003  -  2:14 AM Reply with quote
Thanks for your kind words. Charmed i surely am by your suave manner!
aslam

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 08, 2003  -  7:04 PM Reply with quote
Salamooooooona,
"There are certain practices related to marriage and intermingling, based on the caste system, that breed inequality, intolerance and an air of superiority. Some of the most vile aspects of Hindu caste system are well-entrenched within the Pakistani society"
Our fiqah books endorse some of these vile aspects of the caste-system!!!!!!
mulaz77

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, November 18, 2003  -  3:53 AM Reply with quote
I have a very close muslim friend who is going thru this issue at present. His family will not allow him to marry a muslim. He must marry a muslim of his caste only no exceptions. He has found a very nice girl who is an american muslim. He knows there is no way his family would ever allow him to marry her.
Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, November 18, 2003  -  10:16 AM Reply with quote
This is a big problem. People have developed false notions regarding the imporatnce of caste and creed.

Although I have the feeling that people are so rigid on this point of marrying within their caste, I'd suggest that your friend should take a persuasive approach. He should persuade rather than rationlize with his parents that he should marry with the person he seems to be happy with. I do not think logical reasoning will help much. He should exploit his position as a son and literally MANIPULATE his parents to allow him to. This sounds unfair. But I do not think there is another way out of this.
mulaz77

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, November 18, 2003  -  9:42 PM Reply with quote
I feel really bad for him. He does not see marriage as a postive thing because of this situation. He only sees it as a social duty towards his family. He of course does not look forward to getting married. He is 28 and his mother and sister are aggressive looking out for him.(his father passed away about 6 yrs back) He said if it was only his mom then he could probably persuade her. But, it is the rest of the aunties, uncles, and cousins that would outcast him.
Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, November 19, 2003  -  9:31 AM Reply with quote
Hmmm. There seems to be a brigade forcing him!
I'll however still suggest that he uses his brains and think of the persuasive ways (approved of by common sense and reason) to avoid the marriage, which he does not like to take place. Why I am saying this is that I hate to think of the ensuing divorce, which is very likely to happen afterwards, especially when it is the husband who does not like his wife.

If anything else, I pray to Allah to let happen what is in his best interests for this world and for that come.

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