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AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Monday, March 28, 2005  -  5:32 AM Reply with quote
quote:

\U r lukin at it 4m da rong way! i said Prophet (saw) wuld ave askd a woman 2 lead da prays, but did he NO!

so its not a ? bout haram or halal its bout da fact IS DERE NY PROOF OF A WOMAN LEADIN BOTH SEX IN2 PRAY and if dere is PROVE IT?
othrwise v wuld b here all day sayin 'OH ITS NOT RITEN DERE N NOT MENTIOND HENCE DA FACT ITS NOT HARAM NOR HALAL V CAN ASUME ITS OKKKKKKK! n nofink rly rong wid it.'


Abu Dawud Reported"The Prophet (peace be upon him) used to visit her in her own home; he appointed a mu’adhin for her, and ordered her to lead the members of her household (in Salah)"

Also, women are generally allowed to lead tarawih prayers.

:) There are some thing which the scholars won't tell you about.

quote:

back to da point da imam as 2 stnd infrnt of da men RITE n women ave been told 2 stnd at da back behnd men? so does it mean da women as 2 stnd infrnt of all da men inorder 2 lead da prys? n wasnt da mosque actly built 4 men?


This was specifically dealing with when the women and men were praying. The rules could very well differ if the woman is leading.

For example, it says men should stand next to each other in a line. Does this mean that the imam should stand next to them? No, but this this is dealt somewhere else to clarify. Though for women, it is not clarified.
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Monday, March 28, 2005  -  5:43 AM Reply with quote
I'd just like to say that i've changed my mind on this issue after reading the whole evidence.

I don't see anything very wrong about a woman leading a prayer, but then from the evidence i've seen, it is best for a man to lead as this is how the prophet did it. We must follow his way of prayer, as there is no other way of prayer for us to follow. I don't think it is a big sin for women to lead a mixed-gender prayer, though i beleive that it is best for a man to do so.
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Tuesday, March 29, 2005  -  5:32 AM Reply with quote
quote:

What is the compulsion, which is taking a women among the mixed congregation and the men are considering or proving themselves ineligible?


I'm not sure if i fully understood your question, but i'll take a shot at answering it.

It seems that the women feel that they are being treated and looked upon as inferior, and with the whole feminist revolution going on, they feel like they want their "rights" back (which weren't really taken from them in the first place). Women just want to be like men so that they can feel better about themselves.

Men on the other hand feel superior to women, and will suffer a big blow to the ego if they allow women to lead them in prayer. It will be as if they are submitting to women. Just like a man being slapped by his wife, and staying quiet about it and then apolagizing. Even though he may be wrong, it doesn't matter, because he's the man.

The issue seems to be more of traditional social conflict than it is a religious one.
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, March 30, 2005  -  6:32 AM Reply with quote
Respected Participants

plz see these links Before going Ahead in this Discussion & Deriving any Result:
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=950
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=951
http://www.studying-islam.org/querytext.aspx?id=294

Thanx
abdullah9768

USA
Posted - Wednesday, March 30, 2005  -  5:00 PM Reply with quote
I would be interested in the views of Imam Warith D. Muhammad onthis subject.
Could you ask his understanding of this issue?
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, March 30, 2005  -  11:46 PM Reply with quote
salam (peace)

honestly i feel and as i had a chance to speak to a learned person in islamic shariah, this is a matter of local culture and environment in the US and nothing to do with islam

didn't i tell you that when i visited LA, i was surprised that the people were driving cars with one foot out of the window, the water taps opened the other way round, the light buttons turned on upside down and the toilet flush tank handles needed turning upwards instead of downwards
the act of the lady cannot be taken for or against an islamic ruling and needs ignoring , taken as a part of their local culture where they try to portray gender equality in very aspect

regards
ibrahim

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  5:47 AM Reply with quote
I agree Sister Henna that the act of the lady cannot be taken for or against an islamic ruling BUT does it really needs ignoring? It's Questionable. At least I can't agree with it personally Bcoz to me this is NOT as simple CASE as U r taking it.
U r right that it's a matter of LOCAL culture BUT at the same time this ACT is against Muslim tradition and custom all over the World.
&
It's True too that all traditions are not sacred and it is not always necessary to follow them, but there Should be some genuine need to break them.
According to news reporting, this Looks a case of Mere feminism & it alone should not be the only reason of breaking Muslims' WORLDWIDE culture.

What do u think?
Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  10:44 AM Reply with quote
I think there are two other important question that should first be debated before we come to analyze the Friday Prayer led by a woman in America:

1. Whether the Friday Prayer is instituted to be held in a country where Muslims do not rule?

2. Whether anyone, other than the state representatives, is authorized to lead the Friday Prayer?
Mikai

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  1:24 PM Reply with quote
Asa

Quote: can she do it 4 both male n female?

I did a little reading around and read different opinions. It was a bit too much (one says this another says that) so i kinda got fed up.

Firstly according to my knowledge it is compulsory for men to go pray jummah in the mosque. It is their responsibility to Allah Swt. This is why I think hadiths talk about a male imam leading the men in prayer, because we must remember that the imam being male also has the obligation to pray jummah. So it fits together that a male imam should be leading the male congregation just like it is indicated in the hadiths. They are all following in the way of Muhammad pbuh and they all are ordered to pray it.

So for a sister to lead men in the jummah prayer just doesn’t sound right to me because mainly it is not an obligation for her to pray it where for all men it is. Since hadiths do not show any proof of a female leading the compulsory jummah pray for men then I can understand why men would have a problem with a female leading them. It’s a matter of looking at the evidence and wanting to follow it.

If sisters would like to pray the jummah prayer as well, then as far as I have learnt they are allowed to join the men at the mosque and pray jummah with them. But they shouldn’t interfere with the men’s prayer at the mosque since it is an obligation for the men. Men shouldn't have to go through worry and doubt thinking there is a possibility their pray may not be accepted if a sister leads them. Therefore sisters shouldn’t argue that a woman should be allowed to lead men.

How about we look at it another way. What if Allah Swt ordered women to pray jummah on Friday where all the hadiths show how a female imam led them all? Now don’t you think women would feel uncomfortable and have a problem if a man said he would lead them in the jummah prayer instead. Wouldn’t all the women say, “Well no hadiths indicate that it is ok for you to lead us because hadiths only talk of a female leading us? ” They could also say “well it is compulsory for us women and not for you, so it makes sense for a female imam to lead us since it is compulsory for her as well.”

So I would say no, a sister should not lead men (whether women worshippers are there or not) in jummah pray.

Edited by: mikai on Thursday, March 31, 2005 1:39 PM
Mikai

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  1:43 PM Reply with quote
Asa wb

Here's the rest to my reply:

Whether a sister can lead just women in jummah pray is a different topic because for one we need to find out whether the jummah prayer is also compulsory or even has a purpose for women. Is there any indication in hadiths that a woman can pray jummah as a voluntary action and be more rewarded for it then simply praying Zuhr at home?

If it isn’t then I’m getting a bit worried that women coming to pray jummah and having a female imam (where they pray separately from men) may be biddah. Will their pray be accepted or rewarded?

If Allah Swt didn’t order women to pray Jummah then wouldn’t it be more rewarding for them to simply pray Zuhr prayer at home?

But I respect sisters wanting to pray Jummah, it shows their keeness to become closer to Allah Swt because some of them must feel that men have a great opportunity to pray together as a group to Allah Swt and be highly rewarded for it. But Allah Swt is the Lord of justice so surley He will reward sisters the same when they pray at home.

What we should also remember is that a male imam is not leading women because he is better or superior or something (even though some people say it is), it is simply a matter of women and men protecting their modesty so both men and women are able to have the best opportunity to do their prayers properly, free from unintentional distractions. You see if a female imam was praying infront of a whole group of men (provided women congregation are behind men) can she really be totally comfortable with the fact that these men can see her from behind? Can she concentrate in her prayers and do all her prayer actions properly? Being an imam is a big responsibility. Can the men truly feel comfortable with a female imam in front of them or more comfortable with a male imam in front of them. Is a male imam more likely to distract the men worshippers then the female imam? I pray not, ha ha. So its common sense to have a male imam.

Other questions can arise from this.

For e.g. Why cannot a woman lead men from another room?

Because of indications from hadiths that the imam should be in the same room in front of the worshippers. It's just how the layout of the prayer should be done. So since the sister cannot be directly in front of the men then just have a brother imam.

Why cannot a woman lead from behind a screen, where the men behind her won't see her? Hmmm well i dunno?!!? Well she can even though when the prayers have finished the poor sister is likely to have to wait for all or most of the men to leave before she can come out from behind the screen to leave (provided there's no door at the front for her to leave!).

So mainly its just plain inconvenient for both men and women if a sister lead them both.

Well that’s all I can think of saying for now. Sorry for making it long, I have a habit of doing that.
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  2:59 PM Reply with quote
quote:

I think there are two other important question that should first be debated before we come to analyze the Friday Prayer led by a woman in America:

1. Whether the Friday Prayer is instituted to be held in a country where Muslims do not rule?

2. Whether anyone, other than the state representatives, is authorized to lead the Friday Prayer?


Good questions. I'll try and throw out whatever limited knowledge i have on this issue, plz add in or correct me if i'm wrong.

1. The Friday prayer generally isn't required in a non-muslim country, but i can't see any reason for it to be "wrong" or "not allowed" in a non-muslim country. There is nothing to keep it from being done, but it isn't compulsory.

2. I don't recall the prophet ever saying a "state representative" should be the imam or that the imam had to have anything to do with the state. Also, you must realize that the first modern state was created in the year 1600AD, so you cannot compare the type of community which they lived in at the time with our modern state structure today.

The only part which i can recall from the hadith that talks about who should lead a prayer is one where it says something like "the best Muslim between you should lead you." I don't know the exact words to it, but that's how it went, and it has nothing to do with politics.

Also, if the gov't is corrupt and does not follow Islamic law, then i surely wouldn't want it to be my representative infront of God every friday prayer. I'd rather have a good Musim with no connections to the state.
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, April 01, 2005  -  10:19 AM Reply with quote
sorry ibrahim

didn't mean to ignore you
was caught by a bad virus to my ENT soon after that posting along with guests

however as i hv returned i can see nice and informative postings and as they carry on, we will reach somewhere insh'Allah

wassalaam
Jhangeer Hanif

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, April 01, 2005  -  12:31 PM Reply with quote
quote:


Good questions. I'll try and throw out whatever limited knowledge i have on this issue, plz add in or correct me if i'm wrong.

1. The Friday prayer generally isn't required in a non-muslim country, but i can't see any reason for it to be "wrong" or "not allowed" in a non-muslim country. There is nothing to keep it from being done, but it isn't compulsory.

2. I don't recall the prophet ever saying a "state representative" should be the imam or that the imam had to have anything to do with the state. Also, you must realize that the first modern state was created in the year 1600AD, so you cannot compare the type of community which they lived in at the time with our modern state structure today.

The only part which i can recall from the hadith that talks about who should lead a prayer is one where it says something like "the best Muslim between you should lead you." I don't know the exact words to it, but that's how it went, and it has nothing to do with politics.

Also, if the gov't is corrupt and does not follow Islamic law, then i surely wouldn't want it to be my representative infront of God every friday prayer. I'd rather have a good Musim with no connections to the state.




I do not know for sure what criteria you observe when you declare something allowed or disallowed in Islam. As for me, I see when a particulare practice has been set in a defined format, it would be wrong to do it otherwise. We do not need any directive to prohibit the changed practice. The fact it has been changed is enough evidence that it is not allowed in Islam. For instance, in Jumu Prayer, the Sunnah is to recite the Khutabah before the Prayer, if someone dares to say it after the prayer, that will stand invalid merely for this change. The Holy Prophet instituted Jumua and took care for it to be held where his representatives are is enough evidence for me to preclude non-Muslim countries. We should also appreciate the fact that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) did not conduct the Friday Prayer as long as he remained in Makkah, where he had no political authority. Furthermore, after the establishment of a Muslim state in Madinah, the Holy Prophet still did not enjoin upon other Muslims, living outside the city, to offer the Friday Prayer. The obvious reason for this is that the Friday Prayer is solely meant to be conducted under the authority of a state representative and has political significance in Islam.

Ibn Rushd, in his book, Bidayatul Muqtasid Waw Nihayatul Muqtasid, records:


Abu Hanifah described two further conditions [for the Friday Prayer], Al-Misar (ie to be held within a city in contrast to a village) and Al-Sultan (ie to be held under a Sultan, ruler). (Bidayatul Muqtasid Waw Nihayatul Muqtasid, Al-Fasal: Fee Shoroot il Jumu’, page 115).

AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Saturday, April 02, 2005  -  4:53 AM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

Ibn Rushd, in his book, Bidayatul Muqtasid Waw Nihayatul Muqtasid, records:


Abu Hanifah described two further conditions [for the Friday Prayer], Al-Misar (ie to be held within a city in contrast to a village) and Al-Sultan (ie to be held under a Sultan, ruler). (Bidayatul Muqtasid Waw Nihayatul Muqtasid, Al-Fasal: Fee Shoroot il Jumu’, page 115).




So, basically you are saying it is a bid'a to have a friday prayer outside of a Muslim country?
Sweet16

USA
Posted - Sunday, April 03, 2005  -  2:23 AM Reply with quote
Asalaam Alaikum.
I live in New York City, right where the event of Dr.Amina Wadud leading the Friday prayers on March 18 took place. I even saw the pictures where the lady was in front and behind her were men on one side and and women on the other. If it were women behind the men inclduing Ms.Wadud then from what I've read in the hadiths, it would've been fine. However, during the same week this Muslim Student Associaton convention was held. From there I learned from the imams and sheiks that whatever Dr.Amina Wadud has done, she is not the only one to be blamed. He said something like this, "it is also the fault of us Muslims that an event like this and unfortuantely many events like these are occuring". I really didn't understand what the sheikh really meant however, from my understanding it could either be two things, one is that the people who went along to pray Jummah with her encouraged this prohibited act and the other could be that Muslims should've joined and should have raised their voice in order to stop this even from happening. Sadly, this did not happen and this meant that the Ummah had failed to stop a great sin from occuring. This is purely my perspective and from what I understood during that MSA convention. May Allah (SWT) save us all from misguidance, Ya Rabiul Al Ameen!
Fi'Amanillah
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, April 04, 2005  -  1:15 AM Reply with quote
To…………………..Perv 1

See your following quote and the response.

>>Those men that are distracted by the female leading the prayer: Suggest they read their prayers at home, let their wives do the shopping, work or any activity which may result in them seeing a female, obviousouly we would not want them to be distracted.
Whilst we are at it, cannot have males leading a male prayer as they may distract those vulnerable about their sexuality. For who knows what this kind of distraction might lead hem to.

Response: How the nonsense reply is? Two three more persons like you are enough to convey the message by such language all over the words.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To……………………..AmrBassiouny

See your following quote and the response.

>>Can you logically convince any normal human being that a woman leading prayer will cause any harm?

Ans: Your logic is same as some abnormal man suggests the bride with turban riding the horse and the groom otherwise. Your opinion is like those stupid members of the assembly who flattered the chief minister so much to become the minister that they started to suggest converting his native town into the capital.

The men seem to be flashed blind totally to impose the thinking by all the means without thinking before speaking or chewing the fodder.

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