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perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, February 06, 2005  -  8:30 PM Reply with quote
that is dumb. DO YOU UNDERSTAND??
Dear oosman. I am obviousouly dumb that I have not understood your point.
Since the discussion was initiated by yourself. Let us go through the points in a numbered manner so a simpleton like me can understand

(1)Some hadith in Sahih Bukhari narrate Hazrat Aisha married the prophet at age 9.
Since you quoted this you have not actully stated whether it is ok for 9 year old to get married i.e have you ever come across a mature 9 yr old ready for marriage.

(2)When societies try to enforce their own laws and prevent people from getting married, like law of being 18 years old, or christian priests not allowed to marry, then bad things happen - fornication, child molestation, homosexuality, etc. Islam provides such a beautiful way for preventing these bad things from happening
Are you saying that as the west has age limit on marriage,fornication, child molestation, homosexuality, only occurs in the west & the muslim countries in their beautiful way have no such problems?

(3) If there is a dispute, a judge can decide that and should allow a marriage to take place even if the individuals are a little younger than 18. If one or both are not mature enough, the judge may deny the marriage.

So are you now advocating that there should be an age limit but in rare circumstances an exception can be allowed?
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, February 07, 2005  -  4:31 AM Reply with quote
Sorry if you got offended, I did not call any person dumb. If you read my statement again, I was saying the idea to impose age limit is dumb. That is what my point is, imposition of age limit is wrong.

Since we already have an age limit in most countries, there is no need to overhaul the existing system, we can work with it. I proposed we not be so rigid, and let a judge decide individual cases that are below the age limit. Do you agree that this is a workable solution?

I do not need to approve or disapprove whether or not age 9 is ok age for marriage. My whole argument goes against fixing an arbitrary age limit. Each case is unique. Each case needs to be decided individually. Denying any marriage just because the age is under 18 is stupid. The factors that really matter that are never considered are whether or not they are physically, sexually and financial mature and responsible or not.

<>

I never said that. Please try to understand what I am saying. If two 16 year old's want to cohabit, the law will not allow them to do so under marriage. So they will be inclined towards fornication when they cohabitat. The law in such case is actually encouraging what Islam has discouraged. A similar example of a stupid law is married couples to pay more taxes to the government than individuals cohabitting. Such a law discourages marriage. The law should require cohabitting couples to pay more than married couples so marriage gets promoted, but now most see higher taxes as a drawback of getting married and they prefer to not get married.

I do not know where you or Junaid got the idea that I was inclined towards pedophilia. You totally failed to grab my argument. We may live in the west, but we should not let pro-western ideas fog our Islamic values.
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Monday, February 07, 2005  -  6:41 AM Reply with quote
In my opinion the law should be based on the biological facts, i.e., at what age can a girl undertake successful pregnancy and also the real fact that at what age can a boy be financially independent or be intellectually mature.

To my mind in the modern world, we are looking at an extremely small subset of individuals.

But anyways, the point is what are we encouraging here? The fear of fornication should not be a criterion for marriage. There is something called patience, which people must be taught.

After all, if the physically unattractive, deformed, financially unstable, the sick et al. can stay chaste for the rest of their lives, then two or three years at most for precocious teens should not be much or a problem. Now should it?

Islamic values instill strength in a person, as opposed to making the individual paranoid as to get married quickly for one would fornicate.

Contrary to what people think, it is quite hard to fornicate, you know why?

1) need to know the person
2) need to go on a date
3) need to make the eye contact.
4) need to be assertive.

you know Islamic teachings are about not even drawing near such a state.

So please give me a break, when you impress upon me the need for marriage out of fear of fornication.

Marriage is to be thought over by a rational, mature mind. It is not a child's play. Men mature late in age, why do you think Arabs are polygamous?

If you have read 'Road to Mecca', you would know that the Bedouin Arabs would advise Muhammad Asad to marry a young girl or marry again. Why? Because that is their custom, i.e., marrying young, and when they get tired they marry again even at expense of divorce.

But are these Bedouin values we want to cherish. I think not!

Edited by: junaidj on Monday, February 07, 2005 10:43 AM
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, February 07, 2005  -  4:59 PM Reply with quote
>>> you know Islamic teachings are about not even drawing near such a state.

That is precisely my point. The silly laws we have today encourage people to go near such a state where they may commit fornication.

We need to avoid such laws that take us near such a state.

And another thing, if you think commiting fornication is difficult, you are wrong. When children who are barely 12 are doing it in schools and it is so rampant, among teens, among adults and married couples - it is one of the things most easy to do in the West.
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Monday, February 07, 2005  -  6:11 PM Reply with quote
>>The silly laws we have today encourage people to go near such a state where they may commit fornication.

No they do not. Absence of chastity teachings and inculcating the strong institution that fornication is wrong is the problem.

>>When children who are barely 12 are doing it in schools and it is so rampant, among teens, among adults and married couples - it is one of the things most easy to do in the West.

That happens because they follow through with all the three or four steps mentioned earlier. When a Muslim is forbidden to draw even near a date, or even to ogle, or even to talk loosely with a woman, I do not see the issue of fornication arising.

Else, at LUMS we would all have fornicated.

Edited by: junaidj on Monday, February 07, 2005 6:11 PM
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, February 08, 2005  -  6:15 AM Reply with quote
>>The silly laws we have today encourage people to go near such a state where they may commit fornication.

One needs only to ask the question that if 12 and 13 year olds end up fornicating, then the solution does not lie in 12/13 year old marriage but in proper moral teachings. Therefore, it is not the age 18 marriage law that promotes fornication by disallowing marriage, but the lack of moral values.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, May 06, 2005  -  10:46 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: The fear of fornication should not be a criterion for marriage. There is something called patience, which people must be taught.

I AGREE to the statement.
ukhtee

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, May 07, 2005  -  2:11 PM Reply with quote
I totally understand you bro!!............. it all depends on the individual person, some are ready to get married at 16 where as others are not.

I think what everyone has forgotten here is that marriage is half your deen..... as long as the person is responsible enough than i dont think age is really an isue here.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, May 13, 2005  -  8:42 PM Reply with quote
If early marriages are the only preventive measure of fornication that is nice otherwise teaching the lessons of patience and humanity may be considered as a more powerful tool.
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, May 19, 2005  -  1:42 AM Reply with quote
This topic was about the issue of being 18 years of age to be married.

In the holy Qur'an in sura Imran it is stated that guardian should examine the orphans and when they reach maturity, they may marry.

The modern day restriction of an age limit is not very fair. While it protects the immature, the mature are prevented from getting married. The law should be fair to all.
tweety

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, June 09, 2005  -  4:35 PM Reply with quote
9 is a child's age. I refuse to accept such apocryphal Hadith. It goes against all common sense.

that hadith is true
u cant refuse 2 believe it cuz it doesnt appeal to ur logical sense
u hav 2 understand the reasons for y he did that
the prophet had many wives becuz he wanted them 2 spread the message of islam
as u no kids grasp things a lot quicker than adults
thats y Aisha (RA) was married to the prophet at such a yung age
she learnt absalutely everything from him and rememberd it all
thats y she was the one that the prophet's companions refered to for hadith and sayings by the prophet- she knew them all
Nauman

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 10, 2005  -  8:18 AM Reply with quote
Dear Tweety read the following:

http://understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375

Regards.

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