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oosman

USA
Topic initiated on Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  1:26 AM Reply with quote
Marriage at early age


As far as I know, young Muslims when they reach puberty are allowed to get married. Some hadith in Sahih Bukhari narrate Hazrat Aisha married the prophet at age 9, but Allah knows best what her age was. Any way, my point is, the marriage at early age is allowed and there is no condition like you have to be 18 years old, etc.

It seems in the west, they ridicule Muslims for this practice, and yet their own children are indulging in sexual activities as soon as they reach puberty. Infact the situation is pretty bad here in American schools, I read a report that on average each individual in one test case school had indirect sexual contact with 288 other individuals. So if any of them has an STD, all 288 are likely to get it. Another report at http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050131/hl_nm/health_abstinence_texas_dc states: "The study showed about 23 percent of ninth-grade girls, typically 13 to 14 years old, had sex before receiving abstinence education. After taking the course, 29 percent of the girls in the same group said they had had sex."

When societies try to enforce their own laws and prevent people from getting married, like law of being 18 years old, or christian priests not allowed to marry, then bad things happen - fornication, child molestation, homosexuality, etc. Islam provides such a beautiful way for preventing these bad things from happening, by providing the umbrella of marriage to allow young people and others also to get married and at the same time making them responsible for their actions and providing security of the law that a married a couple has with all the rights granted to husband and wife by the legal system.
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  6:52 AM Reply with quote
>>Some hadith in Sahih Bukhari narrate Hazrat Aisha married the prophet at age 9

9 is a child's age. I refuse to accept such apocryphal Hadith. It goes against all common sense.

>>my point is, the marriage at early age is allowed and there is no condition like you have to be 18 years old,

I think the condition is that of consent. At that age you are not mature enough to make huge decisions.

This is the problem I have with Mullahs, why must everything be reduced to sex. Marriage is not just sex.

>>It seems in the west, they ridicule Muslims for this practice, and yet their own children are indulging in sexual activities

Two wrongs dont make one right. Both are morally reprehensible.

>>When societies try to enforce their own laws and prevent people from getting married, like law of being 18 years old, or christian priests not allowed to marry, then bad things happen - fornication, child molestation, homosexuality, etc.

This analysis is quite simplistic.

Fornication:
In Pakistan the legal age of marriage I suppose is also 18. Even in the West it is 18 but 16 with parental consent (for Canada).

First, look at current Muslim societies, I know many men in their thirties who are chaste. (Oosman, the Luminites from BSc 99, who didn't get married are now nearing their thirties...), and there are many more back home.

Child molestation:
Studies show that mostly the child molester is a close relative, an uncle or someone close, also do not forget the 500 cases of mullahs molesting children in pakistan, the figure was down from 2000 last year or so.

I personally know of two mullah molesting (one a boy and another a girl). one was a renowned scholar on pakistan television, married and with kids.

homosexuality:
this is complex, and open sex behaviour does not encourage or discourage it. Otherwise NWFP wouldnt have gays (if open sex encouraged it) or north america wouldn't have them (if open sex discouraged it). It just is.

I personally know of a 51 year old woman, whose marriage was in doldrums depsite her traditional Bahai faith, she has just realized, when she gave herself some space to think outside the rigorous routine of life, that why she never liked her husband.

>>Islam provides such a beautiful way for preventing these bad things from happening, by providing the umbrella of marriage to allow young people

by getting kids get married and reducing marriage to a sexual affair?

lets do a Kant, will you allow your own 12 boy/girl year old get married with a 20 year old man/woman OR a 16 year old with a 30 year one, should they begin to like each other? It gets quite complex.

see this is where the line of sexual abuse gets blurred. sexual abuse is not that an older person forces himself/herself on a child, that would be rape. in sexual abuse often the child is complicit. his/her body is growing and in such cases, the child occasionally is excited.

Even two 15, 16 year olds getting married to each other, they hardly know anything, the rebellious phase mandated by biology, the teeming hormones which need sometime to settle down, the naive thought process, etc.

In my humble opinion, and this goes back to our many disagreements, where the Shariah is silent, we are bound to use our COMMON SENSE. Our faith is based on reasoning and that is the least we can do to uphold the high values of our faith wherever the Shariah remains silent.

PS: the problem of the west is not in 'not allowing early marriages' but in 'not safeguarding the institution of chastity before marriage'.

Edited by: junaidj on Tuesday, February 01, 2005 9:30 AM
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  3:29 PM Reply with quote
Assalam alaikum,

Honestly I do not feel a child is a child any more when he or she is having sex with a class fellow, even if that the 'child' is 12 years old. When they think they are mature enough to engage in such an activity, then they should be allowed to take responsibility for it by getting married.

It is cruel to suppress in a teen-ager the feelings and harmones that Allah has put in them. You do not seem to understand how difficult it is for a young person to suppress their harmones and emotions. With the stupid age limit of 18, it causes the young person to go through psychological problems and can lead to fornication. Obviously you do not care.
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  3:32 PM Reply with quote
Does your 'common sense' tell you that when two individuals are sexually mature and want to get married, they should not get married because they have to be 18 years old first?
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  6:24 PM Reply with quote
>>Honestly I do not feel a child is a child any more when he or she is having sex with a class fellow, even if that the 'child' is 12 years old.

for me 12 is still child whether he/she has sex or not. I dont judge people on the basis of their sexual activity.

>>When they think they are mature enough to engage in such an activity, then they should be allowed to take responsibility for it by getting married.

you do realize that the above means marriage = sex.

>> You do not seem to understand how difficult it is for a young person to suppress their harmones and emotions.

who is talking of suppression here? and if it has been so difficult, all our parents would ahve fornicated.

>>With the stupid age limit of 18, it causes the young person to go through psychological problems and can lead to fornication. Obviously you do not care.

and obviously you care only about sex.
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  6:27 PM Reply with quote
>>Does your 'common sense' tell you that when two individuals are sexually mature and want to get married, they should not get married because they have to be 18 years old first?

you go ahead and have 12 year olds get married and I'll be there to stop that monstrosity.
Malix

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, February 01, 2005  -  8:21 PM Reply with quote
Salam brothrs,
i have read both sides and u both are right but like brother Junaid, i also agree that 12 is a very young age but brother Oosman is also rite.

However, brother oosman do keep in mind in those days girls werent highly educatd n da only thing that was spreding acros da globe was religion.

So the girls werent attrctd towards fashion,nor education or travelling or 2 settle down 1st or othr attractive things!Also keep in mind most of da kids who seem 2 do such acts r not religous! Nowadays, dere is media which is brainwashn evn incnt kids!

n brothr Junaid u mentiond bout age limit, i now mny ladies who got married at a vry young age ALHUMDULLIAH dere marriage is still strng!i now where u r cumin 4m aswell as i been a young muslim n goin out n sitin wid fellow young muslims, da r not vry mature n nor ready 4 weddin!plus me been 4m UK 1st an individual needs 2 pay 4 uni,den dere is money 2 pay back,den one needs 2 fink bout settling down e.g buyin a house n getn a stable job which takes most of ur age.

so dis is a open topic widout an ending! as times r chnging n also da lifestyle but one shuld always try 2 keep young muslims or ny young childrn away 4m rong acts!
tc
SALAM
oosman

USA
Posted - Wednesday, February 02, 2005  -  8:20 PM Reply with quote
Thank you Malix for the comments.

I am disappointed that Junaid in his anger and bias has failed to see the point of my argument. It is not fair on everyone that age limit be imposed, many individuals mature long before that. Do you know how old was Muhammad bin Qasim when he led the navy fleet to conquer Sind? He was 17. Do you know how old was Marium (a.s.) when she gave birth to Jesus (a.s.)?

It is inhumane to prevent someone from getting married when they are sexually devloped and mature enough to take responsibility and stand on their own.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, February 02, 2005  -  11:27 PM Reply with quote
Salaam
The point junaidj from Canada is making is valid one in that how can you accept anything which suggests it is ok for a 9 year old to get married.
The arguments of education and non education are of no relevance. How many of those who are trying to gloss over this issue would marry off thier own daughter(s) at the age of 9 simply due to the fact that she had not attended school as yet. Anyhow what is an educated 9 yr old?

I am slightly confused by the original comments 'It seems in the west, they ridicule Muslims for this practice, and yet their own children are indulging in sexual activities as soon as they reach puberty' I was not aware that this is a practice exists in the Muslim countries. It is purely a say so in a Hadith.
Illegal sexual acts are not condoned in any society. Just because unmarried children are having unlawful sex, does not make those in the West any more hypocrites than those in the Muslim countries. Are there no illegal sexual acts being commited in th Muslim countries? Just because a law is being broken, it does not make it an unjust law or its originators as hypocrites.
The proof of the marriage at 9 is strongly disputed by many learned experts. I hesitate to use the word scholar. As the so called scholars have brought Islam into disrepute.
I must have lived a very sheltered life as I have never come across a mature 9 year old who can stand on his/her own. I
I would be intersted to know how our readers would respond to a man in thier neighbourhood expressing the desire to marry their 9 yr old daughter/sister etc.
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  12:43 AM Reply with quote
and I am disappointed that Oosman is advocating child marriages. I wont even argue on this. Stop promoting pedophilia.

What are you complaining about Oosman, marriages at 16 are valid with parental consent or so the law goes in Canada. Only at 18 is parental consent not required.

But for me even 18 is young. But thats besides the point.

If Md Qasim was a warrior by 17 or the Holy Mother gave birth at a young age, or if you are fond of reading the Holy Mother Aisha marying at 9 and have some desire to see teenagers get married, then all this put together still does not merit a serious consideration. Why?

Take a skinny 15/17 year boy, the prerequisite of marriage is to be able to support his family. Can he do that? It is medically unadvisable for teenager girls to give birth. You know the stats well enough.

You are being inhuman here by laying these financial burdens on a boy or pregnancy on a girl so taht they could have lawful SEX. That is their age to play, to learn to develop their opinions on issues. Give me a break.

We are talking about a 17 year old kid today and not about MD Qasim's marriage from the past.

Chastity teaches discipline, when two people are married they dont do it just for sex, and even if it be ridicuolously for sex there are times of restraint.

Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:14 AM
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  1:11 AM Reply with quote
>>in his anger and bias

tell me friend, do you claim to be unbiased here?

I have an agenda here, and that is to uphold the sanctity of reason and basic human decency.

you want your girls/boys get married at 13 or 15 and get pregnant at that age or start working at WALMART with school then by all means go ahead.

Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, February 03, 2005 1:19 AM
ukhtee

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  3:17 PM Reply with quote
Asalaam Alaykum brothers
i pray that you are all in the best of health and imaan, Ameen.

Having read both articles i strongly agree that in this day and age to protect our daughters(i have 2, aged under 9) we should encourage them to marry at a reasonably young age. This does not mean to say that they should be married at the age of 9 or 12!!!

The reason why i say 'reasonably young age' is because there is too much fitna around these days and it is very easy for youngsters to fall into this trap, especially in the west as this is a 'normal' thing' for them.

I think that if a child under the age of 15 is having sex than there is something seriously wrong!! Either they are doing it because of peer pressure or because their upbringing has been distorted in some way.

Children should be playing and learning NOT thinking of 'how to impress a boy' or 'the latest fasionable thing'!! It has become too easy for children to lose their childhood.

As you have probably heard about so many 'underage pregnancies' it just goes to show that these 'children' are not mature enough to have sex because the responsibilty of protecting themselves against getting pregnant has not occured to them at all!! otherwise they wouldnt have got pregnant in the first place!!

So, bro, do you still think they should get married at the age of 9?!!

Remember, times have changed and things arent as simple as in the time of the prophet(SAW).

Wasalaam
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  3:26 PM Reply with quote
What I am saying is age limit is not a good measure of telling when a person should be allowed to get married.

I am not advocating pedophilia or anything of the sort at all.

In the USA if a 16 year old boy marries a 20 year old girl, it will be considered statutory rape of the boy by the girl. Because the boy is underage, he is considered a rape victim, with the 20 year old girl being the rapist. Does that even make any sense?
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  7:58 PM Reply with quote
What I am saying is age limit is not a good measure of telling when a person should be allowed to get married.

Ok so what magic formulae are we going to use?

In the USA if a 16 year old boy marries a 20 year old girl, it will be considered statutory rape of the boy by the girl. Because the boy is underage, he is considered a rape victim, with the 20 year old girl being the rapist. Does that even make any sense?

Why does it not make sense. It is the law, with which I assume those in USA feel comfortable. What criteria would you apply or is it ok for a woman to have marital relationship with a boy of any age!

I am not sure the purpose of these examples, do they in any way justify the marriage of a 9 year old child.
Surely as Muslims if we find the mariage of a 9 year old girl unacceptable then we should say so unequivocally & not muddle the issue by pointing out the faults in the west. Besides do two wrongs = one right?
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, February 03, 2005  -  10:49 PM Reply with quote
The criteria is whether or not the person is physically, sexually and financial mature or not. Simple. If there is a dispute, a judge can decide that and should allow a marriage to take place even if the individuals are a little younger than 18. If one or both are not mature enough, the judge may deny the marriage.

It is wrong to forbid a relationship that Allah (swt) has sanctioned. To blindly enforce an age limit for every one not catering for the fact that each of us is unique and different; that is dumb. DO YOU UNDERSTAND??
Malix

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, February 04, 2005  -  2:14 PM Reply with quote
I DO!

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