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student1

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Sunday, October 03, 2004  -  7:44 PM Reply with quote
Determining the Sex of the Child in the womb


Asalam Aalaikum

Qur'an claims that only Allah(swt) knows the sex of the child in the mothers womb but recently with
the help of ultrasonography,the sex of the child can be determined in the mothers womb, dont you think that this modern Scientific Method(Ultrasonography) has in a way challenged the Qur'anic claim?


Regards,
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, October 03, 2004  -  8:59 PM Reply with quote

Assalaamu Alaikum.

One answer to your question is:

Even in these times, not really.

At best:

i) Ultrasounds have a chance of determining the child's gender after five or six weeks into pregnancy.

ii) And even then, the doctors say, "It looks like a girl/boy. Wallahu Alam!"

...a more intelligible response is still sought. :)

Wasalaam.
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  8:55 AM Reply with quote
Madam SaadiaMalik

Asalam Aalaikum

Thank you for your contribution to this topic ,no doubt Allah(swt) knows the sex of the child even before the pregnancy ,and no Doctor or specialist could predict the gender of the child before the pregnancy, they can only determine the gender of the child sometime during pregnancy but their is another important thing on which we should ponder is that does the Qur'an claim to know the perticular term "gender" of the child?

I hope my question is clear

Regards,


Edited by: student1 on Monday, October 04, 2004 8:59 AM
atifrafi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  10:52 AM Reply with quote
Assalam o Alaikum,

I didn't remember the exact verse of the Quran about which we are discussin here but recently I heard a lecture of Dr. Zakir Naik and according to him the word "gender" or "sex" is not used in the Holy Qura'n. It is stated as only ALLAH knows "what is in the mothers womb" which means that only ALLAH knows that what kind of person he/she will become afterwards, like he/she would become a doctor, an engineer and also either he/she would be a good member of the society or a bad member and science can never tell this in advance and this is what the Holy Quran claims. It doesn't speaks about the gender of the child but it speaks about the character and future of the child.

May be i am unable to express it clearly and I hope that someone will correct me if I am wrong.

Regards

Edited by: atifrafi on Monday, October 04, 2004 10:54 AM
student1

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  2:59 PM Reply with quote

Asalam Aalaikum

It is right,Dr.Zakir does claim that Qur'an doesnot refer to the term "gender", he further states that many commentaries and translations of the Qur'anic verse says that only Allah(swt) knows the gender of a child in the mothers womb, but if one refers to the Arabic text of this verse their is no such word in Arabic which means "sex" or "gender",and many Scholars have misunderstood that the verse means only Allah(swt) knows the sex of the child which is a mistake.

Regards,
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, October 04, 2004  -  11:18 PM Reply with quote
Assalaamu’alaikum,
I will share my knowledge especially on the sex determination and little bit about the “challenge” with the need of the expert opinion for the final decision.
After six weeks of pregnancy, the external sex characters start to develop but the structures in both the sexes are so similar that they can’t be differentiated even on the gross examination till fourth month after which the features becomes clear day-by-day and becomes sure at the fifth month. So before the fifth month, the results are false and the false positive results are by chance.
The factors which affect results of the ultrasound are, expertness of the sonologist, resolution of the machine, position of the foetus, status of the foetus whether having any abnormality or not, amount of liquor amnii (fluid around the foetus), any uterine or abdominal pathology (disease), thickness of the abdominal wall, amount of gases in the intestine and amount of urine in the urinary bladder. These factors seem to be the barriers, which safeguard the secrets set by Allah Almighty.
On the other hand, the sex determination although neither in black and white nor proved by the studies, is done most of the times by the multiparae (having the experience of multiple pregnancies) also. They have their different feelings (eating habits, mood changes etc) soon after amenorrhoea (loss of menses) in the different sexes. So this way determines the sex much earlier than the ultrasound. In the next pregnancy, one woman often has the same changes, specified for the each sex but these changes differ from women to women. I have the personal experience in my family but this is not always true. Now here lies another barrier.
No doubt Allah knows 100% and the above mentioned ways of sex determination are doubtful, so not 100%. These figures prove the open defeat of this modern false challenge. So far as my knowledge is concerned, it is a sort of modern prediction as the doctors can make even about the time of death of the patients, which is often true. This prediction is a knowledge that is not forbidden rather this knowledge provokes to ponder more to know about His complex universe, hence a cause to remember Him more, which He wants for His pleasure leading to paradise (Please see the comments dated September 29, 2004 at the following link with a feed back).
http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=191&pg=2&lang=&forumid=1
Ultrasound is a very safe and fruitful investigation due to which the patients can be treated by pricking by a needle instead of giving a long incision on the abdomen or other parts of the body. So the patients may easily escape from the major operations. It must be remembered that the treatment decision is not done exclusively on the basis of the ultrasound report but many more other information also. Sometimes some important information nullifies the ultrasound result and the whole treatment plan is changed after which the patient is recovered completely. My views have become lengthy to know value of the ultrasound. I think, in the light of this discussion “It seems to be failed to challenge” Suppose this is really a challenge then there seems to be another challenge to Holy Quran “ No body can know the hidden or unseen things but Allah”. We are knowing through different media, almost every thing (audio, video live or recorded) from all over the world that is hidden and we can’t know except the devices like radio, TV, telephone, internet etc. These media are much more powerful and their accuracy rate is many times high than that of the ultrasound. The ultrasound is involved only in a smaller area on the abdomen but these media cover whole of the world and we can see as low as in the bottom of the oceans and as high as inside the moon and also exactly about the future e.g. about the weather and changes in the solar systems. I think the problem is over but we can wait for the next more comprehensive approach according to the teachings of Islam.
In the end, as the ultrasound is facing a challenge in the medical field and helping the mankind, if the sex determination is a challenge to the claim of Holy Quran, I believe that Allah Almighty might ignore it because the intention is not to be a challenge and He is GHAFUR- UR-RAHEEM, GHAFFAR and loves His creatures.
May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
Allah Hafiz!
Dr. Akhlaq
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, October 06, 2004  -  11:50 AM Reply with quote
Also ps

http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=848
this just reminds me of something, though funny today but which may become a fact soon the way technology is moving fwd.

it has been posted to our monthly hosp. journal. its a picture which i cn describe here:
a sonographer is scanning a mother and briefing her about all the features of the baby. baby is shown wearing glasses, sucking thumb and looking intelligently at his mum and the sonographer.
the scan machine is attached to internet.

the sonographer then tells the mother,

" your baby is growing perfectly in there
do you want to send an email to her ?"
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, October 06, 2004  -  11:04 PM Reply with quote
Assalaamu’alaikum,
No doubt “All the components of the creation are collected together in the mother’s womb by forty days”
Allah almighty wants to surprise us and then the technologies come into existence so that we would see ourselves with our own eyes. This is called “Ain-ul-yaqeen”, Subhan-Allah. If still our believes are doubtful then we are among those who are really in “loss” (Al-Quran, 103, 1-3).
May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
aslam

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, October 08, 2004  -  3:15 PM Reply with quote
Salams,
check the folhttp://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=1394&sscatid=432lowing
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 10, 2005  -  8:49 PM Reply with quote
Thats why I believe that unless a clear view is obtained ideally with a photograph taken, the sonologists/sonographers must not comment on the fetal sex and if parents insist they must convey the limitations. Because many a times due to fetal position of the limbs its not possible to have a lucid view. Sonologists are very careful in the countries where wrong reports can easily mount to a medicolegal issue.

I wish we ramain careful everywhere just for the sake of our fellow human beings , and not because of the medicolegal threat.
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, February 10, 2005  -  10:05 PM Reply with quote
Assalam alaikum,

Student1 said: "Qur'an claims that only Allah(swt) knows the sex of the child in the mothers womb ..."

This is totally false - the holy Quran never makes such a claim. Here is the verse:

وَ يَعْلَمُ مَا فِي الاَرْحَام

And He knows what is in the uterus/womb

(Luqman 31.34)

It does not say that He is the only one who knows it, we can know it too.

The translation is very simple. I hope it helps.
oosman

USA
Posted - Thursday, February 10, 2005  -  10:11 PM Reply with quote

وَ ..And


يَعْلَمُ ..He knows


مَا ..what (is)


فِي ..in


الاَرْحَام ..the uterus

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, February 13, 2005  -  12:39 PM Reply with quote
thnx
n also we need to keep in mind that the word maa' (what) does not apply to the sex of the fetus only, rather to each n every feature including his/her future personality, character, career, skills, strengths n weaknesses etc.
oosman

USA
Posted - Monday, February 14, 2005  -  5:28 AM Reply with quote
You are correct. Actually 'maa' means 'whatever', so it would be - 'And He knows whatever is in the uterus'.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, February 17, 2005  -  11:40 PM Reply with quote
This is totally false - the holy Quran never makes such a claim. Here is the verse:الاَرْحَام

And He knows what is in the uterus/womb
Thank You oosman.

'Qur'an claims that only Allah(swt) knows the sex of the child in the mothers womb'.

Please stop misquoting the quran. If the above was true then the whole basis of Quran would come tumbling down as this would obviousouly be a contradiction in the light of present day knowldge.
Learn the Quran yourself, do not misquote others ignorance.
God has given you brain, intellect etc. Use it read the Quran and open your heart, as the Quran states and God will reveal the meaning to you.

What this simple discussion has illustrated how easy it is to falsify the meanining of the Quran, even with the best of intentions. Unfortunately this problem is not limited to this particular incident.

It is possible to determine the sex of the fetus with 100% accuracy by more invasive procedures such as amniocentesis or chorionic villous biopsy. In the not too distant future it will be possible to accurately the manipulate the sex of the embryo by ivf techniques
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, February 20, 2005  -  9:28 PM Reply with quote
Surprisingly, invasive procedure in pregnancy just for sex determination??

It is not usually just for sex determination. These procedures are usally carried out to determine certain genetic variations such as Downs syndrome and at the same time it is also possible to determine the sex of the fetus.
Unfortunately sometimes the procedures are abused, in my humble opinion, to just determine the sex of the fetus and in many cases if the result is not the desired one the pregnancy is unfortunately terminated. Without wishing to offend anyones sensitivities, this problem tends to be predominantly in the countries which often accuse the west of sexual imorality.

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