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naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Thursday, May 17, 2012  -  8:50 AM Reply with quote
Definition of Sunnah


The definition of Sunnah given in the module 1 of this course is that written by Mr. Ghamidi in his book “meezan”. Although I don’t completely agree with the common definition of Sunnah (i.e. anything which the Holy Prophet PBUH did), yet I cannot accept blindly the definition of Sunnah given in this course material.

I read somewhere on this website that the concept of Sunnah given in this course is not a new one but the concept of all great scholars of Islam.

Could you please QUOTE WITH REFERENCES the definitions of Sunnah by
• Renowned scholars of the three generations (sahaba, tabayeen, taba-tabayeen)
• Renowned scholars of the past (except Hamid ud Din Farahi and Amin Islahi)
• Renowned scholars of this age (not having any relation with Al-Mawrid and Mr. Javed Ghamidi)

If you provide these, it would be very easy for me to accept the definition of Sunnah given in this course.

Regards,
Naveed Akram
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, May 18, 2012  -  3:17 AM Reply with quote
Naveed sb

The conditions you are applying to accept the definition of Sunnah by Mr. Ghamidi are very strange. The world especially the knowledge does not go like that. May I ask that why you are accepting Newton's law of Gravitation or Motion? None has presented or defined them too before!
In fact such things are always present there but someone comes and discover them for us. Same is the case of Sunnah.
There was NO NEED to define it in the early eras especially Sahaba period. There was Quran before them and what else the beloved Prophet gave them as DEEN it was the Sunnah.
However when the terms were defined in early times there were TWO main terms other than Quran. In fact it's ONE thing called AKHBAAR n have TWO types; Aahaad & MuTawaatir. The 1st is now famous as Hadith & the 2nd was the Same that we are mentioning as Sunnah.

As far as References are concerned, its a LONG task and I may not be able to find them for you in person. Nevertheless i would surely try best to help you in this regard as much as possible. So you yourself must be ready for a long research work. I'll guide you n you'll study and find if & only if you can go through Original Arabic Sources.
In the mean time pl go thru these links:
http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/topics.aspx?option=articles&;id=2
http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=77
http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/topics.aspx?option=queries&;id=2
http://al-mawrid.org/pages/questions_english_detail.php?qid=56&;cid=37&search=sunnah
http://al-mawrid.org/pages/browse_art_ques_eng.php?cid=16
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, May 26, 2012  -  2:32 PM Reply with quote
Respected Mr. Ibrahim
Thanks for the reply.
I have come to understand that Sunnah might not be defined in the past, but the people of the past were clear about what is Sunnah and what is not Sunnah. So the real thing is not the definition of Sunnah but to know what is Sunnah.
I have gone through the course material, the above links and some other sources, and have following questions/confusions. It is a long list, but I hope you will find some time to answer these.

1.


Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=77

“Only that thing can be a Sunnah which is religious by nature and status”.


I believe that anything that Holy Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do must be religious, because prophets do not demand anything from their human capacities. Thus Beard and Walima are religious by nature and status. But in his videos, Dr. Shehzad Saleem says that these are not religious. It creates confusion in the mind. Please let me know how we can determine whether something is religious or not? What are parameters and criteria which make something religious or non-religious?

2.
Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=77

“Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah”.

The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said:

"Five practices are characteristics of the Human nature: circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short."
If the things which state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah, why do you call these practices (circumcision, shaving pubic hair, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short)as Sunnah?

Reference the example of the above principle:
“Beasts having canine teeth, wild birds having claws and tamed donkeys have been prohibited by the Prophet (sws); however, this prohibition is only a delineation of human nature, which is averse to eating such things. Hence this prohibition cannot be termed as Sunnah”.

According to my understanding this example is related to determination of Halal & Haram, and is not of PRACTICAL nature. So these are not Sunnah as per Second Principle of determining Sunnah, and have nothing to do with the Fifth Principle. Is there any other example of the Fifth Principle (Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah)?

3.
Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=1000 under the heading “SUNNAH”

“In the discussion which follows, we are going to discuss the SUNNAH of the Prophet (sws). This means the way of life which the Prophet (sws) taught the people in theory and practice and for which, in his capacity as a teacher of Sharī’ah (Islamic Law), he laid down IDEAL STANDARDS of leading a life which one should meet to earn Allah’s approval through complete submission to His Commandments. This assignment was a necessary corollary to his status as a Prophet and has been mentioned in the Holy Qur’ān as follows: “God did confer a great favour on the Believers when He sent among them a Prophet from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of God, purifying them and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while before that they had been in manifest error.” (3:164) “You have indeed in the Prophet of God a BEAUTIFUL PATTERN (OF CONDUCT) for anyone whose hope is in God and the Final Day, and who engages much in the praise of God.” (33:21)”

According to my understanding the above paragraphs indicate that Uswa e Hasanah is also Sunnah. But your point of view is that Uswa-e-Hasanah is not the Sunnah. On what grounds do you say that Uswa-e-Hasanah is not Sunnah? And what is the difference in STATUS and SIGNIFICANCE between Sunnah and Uswa-e-Hasanah? Please Explain.

4.
Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=1000

NEED FOR SUNNAH:
The religion with which we have been blessed by Almighty Allah through the Qur’ān only lays down broadly the fundamentals for life. It does not embrace all the details of expositions thereof. Comprehensive education of the Ummah in the matter of details has been left entirely to the Mu’allim-i-Qur’ān, the Prophet (sws) himself. The overall structure of Islam has been raised and completed through the Sunnah of the =Prophet (sws). For instance, basic commandments with regard to prayers, fasts, pilgrimage, zakat and other obligations and rites have, no doubt, been laid down in the Holy Qur’ān. However, there are no details mentioned on any of these subjects; so much so that the Qur’ān does not even mention the details of such an extremely important matter as prayers, for example their timings, total number, and the number of rak’ats in each prayer. The same is true of all other modes of worship and of other commandments and laws. For instance, the Qur’ān lays down the cutting of the hands as a penalty for theft. However, the DETAILS HAVE BEEN LEFT TO THE PROPHET (SWS) TO EXPLAIN---as WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF ‘THEFT’ WITH REFERENCE TO THE VALUE THEREOF, OR WHAT IS THE POINT WHERE THE HAND SHOULD BE SEVERED ETC.”


This paragraph is written with the heading “Need for Sunnah”. The paragraphs indicate that details for penalty for theft will be regarded as Sunnah, but the course material and the book Meezan say that “things which belong to the practical sphere CANNOT BE REGARDED AS SUNNAH IF THEY ARE INITIATED BY THE QUR’AN”. These two things are contrary to each other. Please comment on it.

5.
Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=1000


IN ANY PRACTICE THE SUNNAH CAN VARY:
The common man appears to be unaware of the fact that in case of one particular issue there can be more than one Sunnah. Owing to ignorance on this point, the followers of Sunnah themselves are divided into different sects, and continue to accuse one another of disregarding the Sunnah. However, if they are fair to themselves in this regard, it should not be hard for them to comprehend that a Sunnah can vary on any single issue.
It has been narrated that on the occasion of his last pilgrimage to Mecca, the Prophet (sws) sat down at one place, and people started to approach him in the form of groups for guidance. Some one explained that he had acted on a certain issue in such and such manner. The Prophet (sws) replied that there was no harm in it. Another one observed that in a particular issue he had acted in such and such manner. The Prophet (sws) approved that action too. Likewise, people approached him one after the other and asked his opinion on the manner they had been acting on different matters; according to the narrations, the Prophet (sws) approved all the different ways of practice of the people and disapproved none.
Apparently the reason for this could only be that they must have all been acting within the sphere of the Sunnah. While carefully preserving the core and essence of a practice, if there happens to be some variation in its outward form, that practice cannot be said to have overstepped the limits of Sunnah.
For instance the narrations with regard to Tashahhud4 are all associated with Companions who were authorities on Fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence). Although the wording of each one differs, the spirit underlying each is identical. Now supposing a person chooses to adopt that Tashahhud which is associated with Hazrat ‘Umar or Hazrat ‘Abdullāh Ibn ‘Umar (May Allah’s blessings be upon them), and does not adopt the one practised by Hazrat Aishah or Hazrat ‘Abdullāh Ibn Masūd (May Allah’s blessings be upon them), would it be justified if we declare his action contrary to the Sunnah? One can of course discuss, as a point of academic interest, the practice which might be preferred and the merits thereof. But how can one reject any of these practices as going against the Sunnah?
To my mind, the same is the position with regard to the word Amen---reciting the word Amen audibly and reciting Amen mutely during the course of prayers; or with regard to folding the arms below the chest or letting the arms down loose during the prayers. There is a possibility, even evidence, of these different practices being reckoned as the Sunnah. In fact, we do have arguments supporting their status as Sunnah. Owing to certain factors for which this is not the occasion for elaboration, some of these practices gained greater popularity than others at certain places. However, none of them can be set aside as being repugnant to Sunnah. At the most, one can raise the question of the degree of emphasis being laid on a particular practice vis-a-vis others. But one just cannot deny it the status of Sunnah.

The above paragraphs tells that different narrations of Tashahhud are Sunnah. But in the course material and the book “Meezan”, it is written that these are not Sunnah.
The above paragraph also indicates that there might not be consensus over a particular Sunnah (as in case of Tashahhud and saying Ameen). But it is written in course material module 4 that there is consensus on Sunnah among all the Muslims. Please explain these two contradictions.

6.
Reference the following lines from the course material Module 4 under the heading “SUNNAH DOES NOT DEPEND ON HADITH”

“We do not need to learn Sunnah from books”
“According to the Muslim ideology, if we want to find out the Sunan, we should look for them in the the traditions and practices of Muslim Ummah and not in the books of history”.

How can we look for a Sunnah in the traditions and practices of whole Muslim Ummah?
Although Sunnah is related to practical affairs and one learns these things from people, there must be some authentic book on Sunnah from where one can check whether something is Sunnah or not. Is there any such book?
If someone attributes some saying/order to Quran and Hadith, we can easily verify it from Quran and authentic books of Hadith. But if someone attributes something to Sunnah, how can we verify it in the absence of some authentic book?
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 20, 2012  -  8:13 AM Reply with quote
is there anybody?
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, June 22, 2012  -  11:31 AM Reply with quote
oh my God! I replied These Qs but I'm not sure How the NOT posted here.

well I'm dead BUSY in some paper checking till TUE or WED max. Pl w8 patiently OR send a reminder on WED if Possible
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, July 1, 2012  -  10:58 AM Reply with quote
sorry 4 the delay again. let me go Q by Q:
renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=77
“Only that thing can be a Sunnah which is religious by nature and status”.
I believe that anything that Holy Prophet (PBUH) asked us to do must be religious, because prophets do not demand anything from their human capacities. Thus Beard and Walima are religious by nature and status. But in his videos, Dr. Shehzad Saleem says that these are not religious. It creates confusion in the mind. Please let me know how we can determine whether something is religious or not? What are parameters and criteria which make something religious or non-religious?

ur objection on this definition or rule doesn't look correct. If Sunnah is a religious term as it's taken HERE as 2nd source of religion, then it MUST be a religious thing that is being declared as SUNNAH.
there's a famous story found in Ahadith that in Madinah Prophet S,A,W, once gave an advise regarding DATES and when it didn't work, he said when reported that I'm here to teach Religious things & not Worldly things.
we are not talking about Human Capacities, but type of things; religious or Non-religious.
Prophet S,A,W, never demanded Beard as a religious order. the famous hadith says: enlarge beards to look different from Jews. How such a cultural advice can be regarded as a religious act? and there are many more cultural things present in the same hadith for the same reason. Y not they were called as SUNNAH and only Beard is given that HIGH status.
Same is the case of Walima. It is another cultural thing that was promoted and many a times it happened that in a SMALL city of Madina that is now inside the boundaries of prophet's Mosque, Prophet himself wasn't aware of the marriages of many of his companions whereas HE must have been ASKED to JOIN the Walima of a his every companion.
The parameters and criteria that makes something religious is that All religious orders have a common thing in them and that's our purification whether it's of mind, soul or body or food or anything OR that thing must be a worship act in its nature. Beard n Walima both doesn't fulfill this criteria or condition. & if you'll Q about this criteria in itself, the answer is that it has been deducted from seeing the ALL orders of God & WHOLE things of the Religion.
pl let me know if i am able to help u in this regard.
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 2, 2012  -  12:57 PM Reply with quote
thank you sir.
i have come to understand that the criteria to determine whether something is religious or not is whether it is related to PURIFICATION or not.

Please go on and answer rest of the questions.
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2012  -  3:52 AM Reply with quote
yes but it's correct for all shari'ah orders except those things that fall in the category of worship

v soon i'll move to other Qs
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, July 4, 2012  -  7:50 AM Reply with quote
let's move to ur 2.
Reference the following paragraph/lines from the link http://monthly-renaissance.com/issue/content.aspx?id=77
“Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah”.
The Holy Prophet (PBUH) said:
"Five practices are characteristics of the Human nature: circumcision, shaving the pubic region, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short."
If the things which state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah, why do you call these practices (circumcision, shaving pubic hair, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short) as Sunnah?

My RES: Actually in "human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah" the connotation of word human nature is different from what is in in the hadith of 5 practices. In the hadith it is referring to the thing that are related to Human Nature i.e. Natural in their nature whereas in the 1st sentence it's used for daily life things of the Prophet S,A,W, like his dressing style is just Bcoz he was an Arab so that can't be regarded as Sunnah.

Reference the example of the above principle:
“Beasts having canine teeth, wild birds having claws and tamed donkeys have been prohibited by the Prophet (sws); however, this prohibition is only a delineation of human nature, which is averse to eating such things. Hence this prohibition cannot be termed as Sunnah”.
According to my understanding this example is related to determination of Halal & Haram, and is not of PRACTICAL nature. So these are not Sunnah as per Second Principle of determining Sunnah, and have nothing to do with the Fifth Principle. Is there any other example of the Fifth Principle (Things which merely state some aspect of human nature cannot be regarded as Sunnah)?

My RES: Actually here are again somethings to be understood carefully. The Author is of the opinion that Halal o Haram in eating n drinking are based on a rule and our Nature can determine it itself & that is the determination of Tayyab n Khabith. And as a rule one thing that's based on NATURE cannot be regarded as Sunnah OR an addition in other Sunnah things Just bcoz it has come in Quran or Hadith. Therefore explaining the above mentioned Hadith it is said that the Prophet S,A,W, is not giving a NEW rule here, just giving examples of Khabith in Human Nature. So nature is the determination of Tayyab n Khabith & Hadith showing sm examples of Khabith.
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, July 4, 2012  -  11:48 AM Reply with quote
you wrote, "whereas in the 1st sentence it's used for daily life things of the Prophet S,A,W, like his dressing style".

Sir, daily life things like dressing style etc. are cultural things, not the nature. How can you make "culture" equal to "nature"?. these two things are entirely different.

Secondly you said that in the mentioned hadith, the Holy Prophet is just giving examples of Khabith in human nature. My question is still there, that is, as these practices are in human nature, and in hadith there is mere description of human nature, WHY DO YOU CALL THESE PRACTICES AS SUNNAH?
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2012  -  10:54 AM Reply with quote
Here are MY explanations:

You wrote: "Sir, daily life things like dressing style etc. are cultural things, not the nature. How can you make "culture" equal to "nature"?. these two things are entirely different."
Sir I'm explaning to U that human NATURE here means general things of a Human & NOT natural. I'm Not trying to make "culture" equal to "nature". Its ur understanding of my expalnation. Pl try to understand my DESCRIBED point of VIEW.

You wrote: "My question is still there, that is, as these practices are in human nature, and in hadith there is mere description of human nature, WHY DO YOU CALL THESE PRACTICES AS SUNNAH?"
Sir try to understand agin my words v carefully plzzz.
Those PRACTICES are NATURAL in their kind ( i mean related to Nature) but are CALLED Sunnah Bcoz Prohet S,A,W, has declared them RELIGIOUS acts by the ORDER of God. Whereas the things related to Animals are description of the NATURAL guidance about the KHABITH animals & not a SEPERATE law.

Hope this time i'll be able to go thru.
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 6, 2012  -  11:46 AM Reply with quote
sir, it seems you are confusing the term "nature". nature does mean "natural", it cannot be meant the general things of Human. You gave "dressing style" as an example of nature. My point of view is that it is our nature to wear dress to cover our private parts, but the "dressing style" cannot be called as nature, it is the part of culture.

However what i have understood up til now is given below:
if something is in our nature and Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) DESCRIBED it, then it is not Sunnah. However if something is in our nature and Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) declared it as RELIGIOUS, then it would be called as Sunnah.

Please tell me if I have understood the concept correctly.
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 6, 2012  -  1:30 PM Reply with quote
If i have understood it correctly, then there comes an associated question.

On what grounds do you say that the Holy Prophet (PBUH) merely DESCRIBED something, whereas declared RELIGIOUS another one?

For example you say that the prohibition of beast, wild birds etc. is mere a DESCRIPTION of what is in our nature. But the circumcision, shaving pubic hair, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short have been declared as RELIGIOUS by the Holy Prophet (PBUH).

I don't see any word in the mentioned hadith that implies that these practices are religious. so it must also be a DESCRIPTION of what is in our nature. On what grounds do you say that these have been declared as RELIGIOUS by the Holy Prophet?
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 9, 2012  -  5:12 AM Reply with quote
sir, I'm not confusing the term "nature". Just trying to show U its diff usages. One is that means Belong to Nature in it's origin & the other is Natural & it may be cultural if it's a nature of a nation OR be personal if it varies fm person to person & it's the one i'm refering as General. I maybe wrong but that's my understading.
when i say that "dressing style" of Prophet S,A,W, is his General or Natural (Personal or Cultural) matter & it cannot be itself a Sunnah unless it's declared & for this purpose it must be related to some kind of PURIFICATION (tazkiyah).

well, ur understanding needs a critical improvement as given below:
if something is in our nature and Holy Prophet (S.A.W.) declared it as RELIGIOUS on it's link with Purification then it'll be a SUNNAH in religion whereas any of his PERSONAL or CULTURAL act CANNOT be taken as SUNNAH in Religion. However, pl remeber that many people do say it sunnah just bcoz it's an act of the prophet so pl do not confuse with this double use of SUnnah word.
& Prophet can DESCRIBED anyone one of them.

I'm bypassing ur Ass. Q for the moment as it doesn't look relevant w MY description of Sunnah. However i wud like to say again sm words on ur repeatedly quoted example of "prohibition of beast, wild birds etc."
Pl concentrate once more to understand what we are saying.
In Halal & Haram eatables the Shariah Guidence is inbuilt in our NATURE & that is the understanding of TAYYAB & KHABEETH as Every Tayyab is HALAL & Every Khabeeth is HARAM & Prophet's saying about "prohibition of beast, wild birds etc." is Just a Desription of the NATURE & not an ADDITIONAL Haram things as some people are taking it.
whereas
circumcision, shaving pubic hair, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short are some NATURAL acts but to the relation with Purification the have been declared as RELIGIOUS by the Holy Prophet (PBUH) & they Fall in the Category of SUNNAH in the religion.
naveedakram

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 9, 2012  -  8:23 AM Reply with quote
sir please tell me HOW DO WE COME TO KNOW that circumcision, shaving pubic hair, clipping the nails and cutting the moustaches short have been declared RELIGIOUS?
I am asking this question because in the mentioned hadith the words are "Five practices are IN NATURE". According to my understanding these words cannot indicate that these practices are RELIGIOUS.
ibrahim
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, July 12, 2012  -  10:03 AM Reply with quote
Surely these words cannot indicate that. Actually at first by the SUNNAH; prophet's actions we came to know that these are religious things because they has a relation to body cleaning that's a part of purification. this hadith just telling the nature of those acts that they are Natural in their Nature & that's all.

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