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samsher

INDIA
Topic initiated on Tuesday, January 03, 2012  -  8:19 AM Reply with quote
HAVE YOU COURAGE TO READ IT


Please go through the following link and read the article.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/416789/Shabbir-Ahmed-The-Criminals-of-Islam

samsher
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Wednesday, January 04, 2012  -  3:55 AM Reply with quote
salam

I have read this earlier under the name of "true history of Islam by shabir ahmed" and I think I forwarded here in this forum as well.

The book, no doubt, is of great interest. Although many of his evidences were funny and illogical
but I like this man because he did show courage and did some research and then exposed the biased interpretation of Islam even from some genuine and sincere scholars.
Especially about women. Our most scholars, being male, could not judge many things correctly about women and treat them inferior and sometimes as mere comforter and soothing object for men. This attitude should be changed as this is not the reality in true Islam.

Nevertheless, his language is not as scholastic as it should be. Respect should be given to all scholars because criticism with respect is also the Islamic teaching which he lacks.

Maybe he is also frustrated just like me (haha)...with wrong interpretation of Islam by those scholars..so could not control his emotion.

to me it is worth reading and then with respectfully we should also do some efforts to find out how Islam is misinterpreted by our many authentic scholars in present and past. And then try to educate others.

But be careful, as one great scholar of Pakistan who has been doing it (correcting the wrong interpretation of Islam) with great logic and authentic evidences, is now living in exile????............

God knows better...



Edited by: safimera on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:02 AM
samsher

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, January 04, 2012  -  6:17 AM Reply with quote
quote:

salam

I have read this earlier under the name of "true history of Islam by shabir ahmed" and I think I forwarded here in this forum as well.

The book, no doubt, is of great interest. Although many of his evidences were funny and illogical
but I like this man because he did show courage and did some research and then exposed the biased interpretation of Islam even from some genuine and sincere scholars.
Especially about women. Our most scholars, being male, could not judge many things correctly about women and treat them inferior and sometimes as mere comforter and soothing object for men. This attitude should be changed as this is not the reality in true Islam.

Nevertheless, his language is not as scholastic as it should be. Respect should be given to all scholars because criticism with respect is also the Islamic teaching which he lacks.

Maybe he is also frustrated just like me (haha)...with wrong interpretation of Islam by those scholars..so could not control his emotion.

to me it is worth reading and then with respectfully we should also do some efforts to find out how Islam is misinterpreted by our many authentic scholars in present and past. And then try to educate others.

But be careful, as one great scholar of Pakistan who has been doing it (correcting the wrong interpretation of Islam) with great logic and authentic evidences, is now living in exile????............

God knows better...



Edited by: safimera on Wednesday, January 04, 2012 4:02 AM


Salam,

You are right.

Samsher
saba2
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, January 05, 2012  -  12:55 PM Reply with quote
Salam, it is a long time since we have heard from you Safimera so how are you doing?
I do remember your post where you had posted a link to this book and I read it the first time and was quite amazed at the extensive research done. I agree criticism should be done in polite words no point using words which offend.
Change is a slow and painful procedure for us because we lack education and awareness but things are changing and have changed in Pakistan. There has been changes in laws for divorce and child custody, women are now working in all walks of life and also getting higher education. Media reports all happenings and any mistreatment comes in open public view. It does not mean all is perfect but things are moving forward. If education increases then things will move faster.
Dialogue and respect of each other's opinion is lacking and that has to develop to learn from each other.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Friday, January 06, 2012  -  6:00 AM Reply with quote
wsalam..I m fine and busy in gham -e rozgaar...how r u??

change is really slow and it is indeed sad and painful...but slowness is necessary....people are not ready...hard ice of old wrong concepts could not be removed easily....we need to develop at the moment only the atmosphere of tolerance and freedom of speech...people would change in fast pace then...and till then it would be slow...
it started with Iqbal in "reconstruction of religious thought in Islam" and then very few till Mr Ghamdi.....supporters like you and me are not very vocal, scholastic and courageous I think....so it would need time...Ghamdi is not the reformer of today...he will be understood more effectively in future....when tolerance and freedom of speech will prevail...it has already started in west to some extent....
if qayama is not near, even then i do not think our generation could see that miracle...but we can contribute to make the foundation of that tolerant society...May God help us in that....
why I said this??... because whatever you mentioned earlier about some progress in women status and in other issues, are still not supported and endorsed by majority of people who are religious or sincere believers. Mostly such progress happened because of people who are secular minded or less religious. And it is like that because only few (Ghamdi like) scholars consider such things within the Islamic teachings. Otherwise most of the sincere muslims still believe in old wrong interpretation of Islam on many present issues....

God knows better
saba2
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, January 06, 2012  -  12:17 PM Reply with quote
Safimera respectfully I disagree, if anyone talks of social reforms or the uplift of women is as religious as any one else.
"majority of people who are religious or sincere believers", I am afraid the majority of us are not "sincere believers" we would not be where we are if we had been. There would have been less corruption, deceit mall practices, lying and stealing.
Our root problem is lack of education and because of that lack of economic activity. Everyone realizes and wants their girls to be educated, sometimes circumstances don't allow the girls to go to schools because of distance or security. If you go to remote areas of Pakistan and talk to village elders not many have an objection to schools being open in their area it is sometimes the stories circulating of what might happen in a school or what the girls will be taught that these people have an objection to if these fears are dealt with keeping in mind their cultural values these elders readily agree to the education and other projects. Ghamidi Sahab is not alone and he is certainly not teaching anything which is unique or out of bounds of Islam, there are others also and if scholars disagree they both have their point of view. Every one is vocal these days and on every channel there is an expert who is talking and discussing issues and on the basics all scholars agree like education, job opportunities health and uplift of projects.
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Saturday, January 07, 2012  -  2:46 AM Reply with quote
I wish I am wrong...but I do not see the picture as good as you mentioned....only one thing is good..the lesson: that we should not give up and continue to educate others...this is our duty and May God give us reward for that in akhirah....otherwise situation is not very good....

Tell me the NET RESULT??...it is actually ZERO...

you said people want to send their daughters for education but b/c of security concern, social stigma and rumors about schools balla balla , they do not allow their women for education!!!! so what is the net result??? zero...it is same reason Talban did present in past...they never say that they are against women education but almost 5 yrs they kept them out of education facilities b/c still they did not have right Islamic atmosphere for women education?????

ideal atmosphere we cannot get ever...
we have to go on best possible way...
such things happened in west as well..women experienced all kind of threats there as well in past but now after 40 to 50 yrs of their struggle, situation is very different there...

Not only 1) issue of women...issue of 2)tolerance and freedom of speech...when I said "not vocal"... I meant we r not vocal about sensitive and real issues, like:

3) what Mr. shabbir wrote..our 70 to 80 % wrong history...
wrong interpretation of many hadees on the basis them many present extremism is thriving..
5)Ijma issue on fatwas....on the basis them any new argument is prohibited.
6) Apostasy...if any unfortunate muslim want to go away from blessing of Islam..let him go...why we keep a hypocrite among us by threatening his life...
7) relation with non muslims....
8) Media (TV, movie, internet) ....u know still majority of muslims think music is totally wrong..they listen to it by temptation but religiously they think it is not allowed in any form...then TV and movies::: ironically I found almost 99% muslims who believe working in TV and movies is not good religiously??? they watch TV and movies but all actors and actresses are bad people in their mind...whether those actors and actresses are not doing anything against islamic teachings??
and lastly 9) the charity concept???...technically speaking, in islam no muslim should have luxury life until and unless all our surrounding folks have at least basic amenities..but again ironically we muslims easily convince us that this is their bad luck and imtihaan if they r poor and they are on Sabar imtihaan and we have money , so we are on shukar imtihaan ..so after paying proper zakaat ...we have no other responsibility.....and enjoy anything from fazal-e-Rabi???

so Saba!! I am happy for you that u r a little satisfied about present situation but in my view the situation is depressing including my own efforts..

one thing we both agree that we should continue to educate and convince other people about real beautiful Islam. And peace,tolerance and freedom of speech are the prime pillars of that Islam...

God knows better...

Edited by: safimera on Saturday, January 07, 2012 2:58 AM
saba2
Moderator

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, January 07, 2012  -  3:44 AM Reply with quote
Oh safimera I wasn't trying to paint a rosy picture that all is well with us. It isn't but things are changing the movement is there very slow but there.
Let me give you an example, 5 years back a divorce case filed by a woman would take years to get a judgement but now the procedure is simpler and a few months and it is done. I for one feel it is progress. Second if there were children involved then the mother had to fight a battle to retain a boy older than 7 years of age but now that has changed too. The father can't take the children away unless the mother is proven to be incompetent. I will call that progress.
We live in this country and want a change as much as you want it. I for one have learnt to be happy with even the smallest of change.
Swat before the insurgency was a beautiful place and girls used to go to school even in the smallest of village in that area, I know because i have been there .The locals didn't want what happened there they were the victims who lived in fear for these many years, so it wasn't the culture of that area to stop girls education but an outside force. Oh I am not saying the girls all finished metric and went into colleges and had careers but yes there were schools there and yes parents had no objection to their girls going to schools. Things have slightly improved in that region but fear is still there.
The rest of what you say about corruption in religion is all true and and the situation in the last 10 years has deteriorated and I don't see it improving you talk of relations with non- Muslims ? What about relations among ourselves between the sects?
I am not satisfied and I put in an effort where ever I can, I know it is not enough but we should not give up should we Safimera? Tell me something you go to your Islamic Centre in your area where ever you are do you find enlightened minds there?
safimera

CANADA
Posted - Saturday, January 07, 2012  -  11:39 AM Reply with quote
Saba! I agreed earlier that yes! there is progress but slow, I never said there is no progress.

Secondly the changes you mentioned, believe me, are not because of our religious people...those came because of secular and non practicing Muslims. This is our point...we could not bring any big change in thoughts of religious people about real Islam....
still majority of Muslim scholars believe that wife should have some valid reasons to get divorce. otherwise she has to stay with husband and give him service as wife....what is this?? According to Ghamdi, in Islam even a wife can get divorce without any reason..simply if she does not want anymore to stay together.....

quote:

I know it is not enough but we should not give up should we Safimera? .


I think I said the same thing earlier that we should continue trying!!! R u thinking that I am saying Not to continue???

quote:

Tell me something you go to your Islamic Centre in your area where ever you are do you find enlightened minds there?


Frankly speaking ...not many enlightened minds??.......in mosque or islamic centres they r better as compared to our countries but that is because that they r living in non Muslim country and they have to take care of their rules....I am not saying they have extremist elements...alhamdoolilalah not like that...but the issues I mentioned earlier.....mostly same here....yes!! about non Muslims, they have very open minded attitude towards them...and this is because they are living with them and watching themselves that all humans are same in nature...

GOd knows better

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