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aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  2:19 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Assalamoeleikumwarahmatullah wabarakatuhu

May akkah save us from such a despair that forces people to take away their lives,but Islam teaches that Life is a big test and when things go wrong, one needs to ask Allah to make the test easy for them and ask for more and more patience instead of killing themselves or others. Nothing in Islamic and previous religions Shariah gives the directive of Suicide. Waalahu aelam. Weleikumassalam.

Assalamualaykum wa Rahmatullah.
Jazakallahu Khir, Mbellos. I fully agree with you on that. Ameen to your duas.

Hope Lofty takes heed from your statement.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  8:05 AM Reply with quote
quote:

This is a hypothetical question and we are assuming that suicide bomber thought his action was correct. After all none of us has perfect knowledge and we can never even achieve perfect knowledge.

Let me ask same question from a different perspective. When a judge declares verdict in court to settle a dispute between two parties, if his verdict is correct he will be rewarded. However, if he has reached a wrong verdict, with good intention though, will he be punished?

I believe he will still be rewarded because his intention was good. Similarly, if a suicide bomber blows himself up, killing innocent people in the process, he will still be rewarded despite his horrific act because his intention was right. We are making an assumption here that both judge and suicide bomber have taken respective actions after thorough research and they are convinced their actions are correct. God has promised us that he will not hold us responsible for something we do not know. "Allah does not lay a responsibility on anyone beyond his capacity". Quran (2:286)

Your comments please!

quote:

This is a hypothetical question

OK
quote:

and we are assuming that suicide bomber thought his action was correct.

This is also true for all crimes, the guilty always thought what he/she is going to do is correct. Only either courts or the conscious of the guilty make him realize that the act done was wrong. Unfortunately, in your case the guilty has no chance to realize his mistake in this world.
quote:

After all none of us has perfect knowledge and we can never even achieve perfect knowledge
You don’t need to have a' perfect knowledge' to know that killing of innocents is wrong. Moreover, doing something without 'proper' knowledge is bad.
quote:

Let me ask same question from a different perspective. When a judge declares verdict in court to settle a dispute between two parties, if his verdict is correct he will be rewarded. However, if he has reached a wrong verdict, with good intention though, will he be punished?
Ok, so you want us to believe that you can kill someone with good intentions. You are killing someone with love and he has no right to know why he is being killed and you suppose he is not going to go against you as a witness in the court if he is allowed to do so after death.
quote:

I believe he will still be rewarded because his intention was good.Similarly, if a suicide bomber blows himself up, killing innocent people in the process, he will still be rewarded despite his horrific act because his intention was right.
Which human or divine law you are talking about ,which has a provision of 'reward' rather than 'punishment' for the guilty of unintentional murder or murder with a good intention .Any example?
quote:

We are making an assumption here that both judge and suicide bomber have taken respective actions after thorough research and they are convinced their actions are correct.
Do you think the judge will expect or accept this arguement from accuse '' me lord,I killed innocents just to please you''. This comment is certainly reflecting the ''good intention'' you are going to prove him right. What would you expect from a judge who is being 'accused' by the accuse in the court by saying so. Will he be happy?
quote:

God has promised us that he will not hold us responsible for something we do not know. "Allah does not lay a responsibility on anyone beyond his capacity". Quran (2:286)
Thanks for your interest in quran and posting this ayah. This is the exact answer god might give to the bomber i.e why did you do such a thing which was beyond your capacity?
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  8:26 AM Reply with quote
quote:

No human has a perfect knowledge

yes
quote:

and God looks at our intentions not deeds, right? .

are you sure ?
"deeds" have no value only "intention'' matters?
I want to learn and know the answer from you within islamic prospective .
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  8:57 AM Reply with quote
quote:


The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the judge rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it wrong, he will have one reward.” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Does this hadith contradict the one you have narrated? This hadith is authentic! Let me give you a verse from Quran which will prove my contention is correct.


your reference is right but the context is wrong.
we are talking about the punishment and reward of an 'accuse' not the judge.

quote:


"Allah does not lay a responsibility on anyone beyond his capacity". (2:286)

Maulana Mawdudi explains the above verse in his tafseer as follows:

"Man's answerability to God is limited to by the extent of his ability". If suicide bomber does not even know what he is doing is wrong, how can he be taknen to task for it.


Maulana is right, but the meaning you have derived from his interpretation is immature and I am afraid it is just opposite of what he has said.
Its simply means men are not going to be questioned beyond their capabilities.e.g.a poor is not going to be asked about zakat,because he is not capable of doing that.
The problem begins only when the poor goes beyond his 'ability' start paying zakat and finishes everything what he has for his livelihood.
Similarly a bomber is asked to fight only within his capacity and not beyond it because he is not made responsible for it.
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  3:35 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Lofty wrote:
quote:


............... Even if you reach a certain conclusion there is always possibilty of it being wrong. There are many scholars out there who have spoken in favour of suicide bombings under certain circumstances............
"possibilty of it being wrong" surely exists where people blindly follow their so called "scholars"; but not whwere one comes to a conclusion based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Lofty wrote:
quote:

Here, we are making an assumption that
    suicide bomber tried to find the truth first and he reached a position in favour of suicide bombing.
    his intentions were right and he blew himself up solely to achieve the pleasure of Allah.

And what do you want(us)toassumenext?

Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:13 AM


As far as my beliefs are concerned I never follow anything blindly. I have read and heard different types of Islamic scholars such as Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Mawdadui, Shabir Ally, Dr. Israr Ahmed, Dr. Zakir Naik, Islahi, Taqi Usmani, Ghamidi etc and I always read them critically. As you can see some of them are very modern scholars whereas others are hard core orthodox. For me logic, reason and power of argument are the factors which make me accept or bend a belief. I am sincere to my Lord and I am always open to change.
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  3:38 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Lofty wrote:
quote:


............... Even if you reach a certain conclusion there is always possibilty of it being wrong. There are many scholars out there who have spoken in favour of suicide bombings under certain circumstances............
"possibilty of it being wrong" surely exists where people blindly follow their so called "scholars"; but not whwere one comes to a conclusion based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Lofty wrote:
quote:

Here, we are making an assumption that
    suicide bomber tried to find the truth first and he reached a position in favour of suicide bombing.
    his intentions were right and he blew himself up solely to achieve the pleasure of Allah.

And what do you want(us)toassumenext?

Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:13 AM


As far as my beliefs are concerned I never follow anything blindly. I have read and heard different types of Islamic scholars such as Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Mawdadui, Shabir Ally, Dr. Israr Ahmed, Dr. Zakir Naik, Islahi, Taqi Usmani, Ghamidi etc and I always read them critically. As you can see some of them are very modern scholars whereas others are hard core orthodox. For me logic, reason and power of argument are the factors which make me accept or bend a belief. I am sincere to my Lord and I am always open to change.

I said it right at start that my question is hypothetical and you will have to make few assumption to answer it.
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  3:39 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Lofty wrote:
quote:


............... Even if you reach a certain conclusion there is always possibilty of it being wrong. There are many scholars out there who have spoken in favour of suicide bombings under certain circumstances............
"possibilty of it being wrong" surely exists where people blindly follow their so called "scholars"; but not whwere one comes to a conclusion based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
Lofty wrote:
quote:

Here, we are making an assumption that
    suicide bomber tried to find the truth first and he reached a position in favour of suicide bombing.
    his intentions were right and he blew himself up solely to achieve the pleasure of Allah.

And what do you want(us)toassumenext?

Edited by: aboosait on Saturday, December 27, 2008 2:13 AM



As far as my beliefs are concerned I never follow anything blindly. I have read and heard different types of Islamic scholars such as Rashad Khalifa, Edip Yuksel, Mawdadui, Shabir Ally, Dr. Israr Ahmed, Dr. Zakir Naik, Islahi, Taqi Usmani, Ghamidi etc and I always read them critically. As you can see some of them are very modern scholars whereas others are hard core orthodox. For me logic, reason and power of argument are the factors which make me accept or bend a belief. I am sincere to my Lord and I am always open to change.

I said it right at start that my question is hypothetical and you will have to make few assumption to answer it.
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  5:09 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:


The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the judge rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it wrong, he will have one reward.” [Bukhari & Muslim]

Does this hadith contradict the one you have narrated? This hadith is authentic! Let me give you a verse from Quran which will prove my contention is correct.


your reference is right but the context is wrong.
we are talking about the punishment and reward of an 'accuse' not the judge.

quote:


"Allah does not lay a responsibility on anyone beyond his capacity". (2:286)

Maulana Mawdudi explains the above verse in his tafseer as follows:

"Man's answerability to God is limited to by the extent of his ability". If suicide bomber does not even know what he is doing is wrong, how can he be taknen to task for it.


Maulana is right, but the meaning you have derived from his interpretation is immature and I am afraid it is just opposite of what he has said.
Its simply means men are not going to be questioned beyond their capabilities.e.g.a poor is not going to be asked about zakat,because he is not capable of doing that.
The problem begins only when the poor goes beyond his 'ability' start paying zakat and finishes everything what he has for his livelihood.
Similarly a bomber is asked to fight only within his capacity and not beyond it because he is not made responsible for it.


The context of Hadith is correct you are twisting the words of Prophet (peace be upon him) to score a point.

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (33/289) it says:

Because of its high status and great virtue, Allaah has decreed reward for it even if one errs, and has forgiven him for passing a wrong judgement. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the judge rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it wrong, he will have one reward.” (Agreed upon) He is rewarded for his ijtihaad and efforts, not for his mistake.

You say the ayah "simply means men are not going to be questioned beyond their capabilities". Thats what I am have been saying all along. If suicide bomber does not even have the capability to know what he is doing is wrong, then how can he be questioned for his action. Those fighting in Kashmir are terrosists to some and freedom fighter/Mujahid to others. What you consider to be crime, may not be crime to others. I can show you many examples where this ayah has been interpreted the way I have. Let me know if you are interested.

Moreover, Shehzad Saleem, a well known scholar and student of Mr. Ghamidi agrees with my contention. Thats what he wrote in reply to my e-mail:

"You are indeed right in your conclusion. If a person sincerly follows a directive (which of course includes that he has ruled out major criticisms on his views) he will be given one reward even if he ends up with a wrong conclusion".

I can answer your other points as well but I dont want to spread debate all over the place. Its better if we remain focused on point under consideration.
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  7:17 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

but not whwere one comes to a conclusion based on the teachings of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.


All the scholars I have mentioned in my answer interpret Islam in light of Quran and Sunnah, except Rashad Khalifa and Edip Yuksel. Rashad and Yuksel reject the Sunnah of Prophet (peace be upon him)- not part of it, but whole of it. For these scholars Sunnah is not a source of Islam.
1kawasaki

SWITZERLAND
Posted - Saturday, December 27, 2008  -  11:08 PM Reply with quote
Salam Alaikum

God forbids suicide...A suicide killer goes into the act concious that he or she is commiting suicide...will God accept this when the suicider says "I have done it to gain your favors"? Fighting against an oppression is a requirement if your or your family's livelyhoods are endangered, directly, and only if attempts to negotiate and reason bear no fruit...
If in the fight (selfdefense) one meets death it would indeed be noble. Never by killing oneself (suicide)... Killing innocent humans is clearly forbidden by Allah. It seems to me the suicide bomber has two problems to contend with, which should, after reflection, at least leave him/her unsure about some aspects of the "planned act". When unsure according to the Koran it is best to stay away, to do nothing, not act... Now, often the oponent is so overwhelmingly more powerful of course...making it all but impossible for one person to fight such power head on, this may leave not many options...But is it worth it to take a gamble? To roll the dice between paradise or hell? 50/50 chance?Perhaps, in light of these uncertainities, it would be a good time to reflect, on what one wants tio accomplish, and how? Perhaps thera are other even better ways to gain Gods favors. If one has decided on Jihad, why not select the favored Jihad of Allah and therefore the most
noble of all Jihads? Which one is it? The Jihad against oneself, ones own nafs, ones own weaknesses (learn to become stronger), ones own ignorance (make an effort to learn and gain knowledge) bad traits (struggle to remove these and replace with better ones) etc...Allah admonishes all humans to seek knowledge, to emerge from ignorance. May Alla guide all Muslims. I seek refuge in Allah from my own evil and ignorance and ask for Allahs forgiveness. Allahu Akbar.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, December 28, 2008  -  4:22 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

In al-Mawsoo’ah al-Fiqhiyyah (33/289) it says:

Because of its high status and great virtue, Allaah has decreed reward for it even if one errs, and has forgiven him for passing a wrong judgement. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “If the judge rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it right, he will have two rewards, and if he rules and strives his utmost to work it out and gets it wrong, he will have one reward.” (Agreed upon) He is rewarded for his ijtihaad and efforts, not for his mistake.

I may go wrong but I must say that Ijtihaad is allowed only where shariah is silent on a particular issue or a new situation comes to the seeker etc.Again this ijtihaad will be done in the light of the major principles of Islam.And as we all know Islam is very clear on suicide ,killing of innocents,rules of war etc.

This is possibly my final post on this topic and may Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong.
sorry to you lofty,my brother,if I hurt you in any manner.

thanks

Edited by: raushan on Sunday, December 28, 2008 4:32 PM
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, December 29, 2008  -  2:49 AM Reply with quote
quote:


I may go wrong but I must say that Ijtihaad is allowed only where shariah is silent on a particular issue or a new situation comes to the seeker etc.Again this ijtihaad will be done in the light of the major principles of Islam.And as we all know Islam is very clear on suicide ,killing of innocents,rules of war etc.

This is possibly my final post on this topic and may Allah forgive me if I said anything wrong.
sorry to you lofty,my brother,if I hurt you in any manner.

thanks

Edited by: raushan on Sunday, December 28, 2008 4:32 PM


You have not hurt me in any way brother. Thank you for being considerate. I personally consider Taqleed to be ummah's curse than blessing.
Nadir

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Saturday, January 03, 2009  -  5:33 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Will suicide bomber go to Jannah?

Shahi Bukhari: Volume 008, Book 078, Hadith Number 680.
----------------------------------------------------
Narated By 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depend upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended."

Shahi Muslim:[/bue] Book 015, Hadith Number 4065.
----------------------------------------------------
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (May peace be upon him) as saying: An oath is to be interpreted according to the intention of the one who takes it.

So regardless of the understanding of Islamic knowledge, anyone who does intend to be fighting for the sake of Allah (swt) only and dies, he is the Martyr of Allah.

Allah (swt) gives importance only to what is present in our hearts regardless of our understanding of Islam.

Keep in the mind the fact, Regardless of the understanding of Islamic knowledge, anyone who intends to be fighting for the sake of Allah (swt)

The commitment of dying is not an easy job. So anyone who dies, his intentions for the sake of Allah (swt) only are not easy to rule out. So refraining from condemning them must be adapted (because the commitment of dying is not an easy job).

May be, they have some mental disease.

And if they have some mental disease (which is also not easy to rule out), then they have no sins near Allah (swt) because such people are even exempted from offering prayers, Fastings, Zakat and Hajj etc.

Conclusion:
Allah (swt) gives importance only to what is present in our hearts irrespective of our understanding of Islam (Reference: Shahi Bukhari, see above)
aboosait

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, January 04, 2009  -  5:51 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Narated By 'Umar bin Al-Khattab:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The reward of deeds depend upon the intentions and every person will get the reward according to what he has intended."

Shahi Muslim:[/bue] Book 015, Hadith Number 4065.
To reward someone would mean "to give a satisfactory return to that person for something justly deserved."

And Allah rewards us even for those actions that are obligatory and which actions if not carried out would attract His wrath and punishment.

It is clear from the Qur'an and the Sunnah that the various actions of Ibadah will attract reward from Him only on two conditions.
    The outward performance of those deeds should be as taught by the Prophet Sallallahu alaihi wasallam and,
    The niyyah (intention) should be purely for the good pleasure of Allah and not for worldy profit or fame.
The Hadith you have quoted describes the latter but does not abrogate the former.


Edited by: aboosait on Sunday, January 04, 2009 5:53 AM
lofty

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, January 13, 2009  -  6:45 PM Reply with quote
Here is more evidence that suicide bomber will not be taken to task for his action. Dr. Khalid Zaheer in reply to my e-mail wrote following:

"If the person didn't have a way of knowing what the correct way was and he was doing things with good intentions, there was no reason why he should be punished for it. The Almighty tells us that "Allah is not going to make you accountable for the unintentional swears you make; He is going to make you only when you really intended." (5:89) This principle is applicable for all matters".

I think I have established my point, we can now put the topic to rest. Thank you to all the participants especially brother raushen and aboosaite. May Allah's peace and blessings be upon you.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Wednesday, January 14, 2009  -  6:24 AM Reply with quote
Before we say goodbye on this thread plz read the below and comment.It is about a" real suicide ''bomber who was hired by someone:
LAHORE, Dec 23: The Crimes Investigation Department on Tuesday claimed to have arrested five people involved in a suicide attack on PML-N MNA Rashid Akbar Niwani in Bhakkar on Aug 6.

At least 26 people were killed and several injured in the attack, including the MNA. The arrested accused Waqas Hussain and his accomplices Dr Nazar Hussain, Arif Khan, Muhammad Amjad and Saeed Amjad Abbas hired a suicide bomber and explosives expert from Wana to kill his former friend with whom he had a monetary dispute.
http://www.dawn.com/2008/12/24/nat37.htm

For me ,suicide bomber has nothing to do with war or revenge but a new form of exploitation of the people who absolutely has nothing to loose.

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