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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 2:56 PM 
Brother waseem,
Quran the furqan ask us to follow and obey the Prophet(pbuh), that He teaches us the the book,the wisdom and also clean us.This Quran the Furqan told us that unlike the others Prophet(Peace be upon them all) our Prophet(pbuh) is the last Messenger and the Prophet for every generation to come until Qaymah.Now Prophet(pbuh) is not among us.So question comes how could we follow Him now?The work of the compilation of ahadith was carried out so beautifully that no other example can be sited to match it.
This is what the furqan says,now who says that ahadith can not be the basic source of religion always failed to provide any reference from the Quran the Furqan.
99% sunni muslims have learned through the scholars believe that ahadith is the basic source of the religion.If we talk about the previous times until sahabah then this 99% you will find will increased to 100% but never was less than this.
Please follow the scholars who represents the majority, because Quran
The Furqan also siding them on this issue. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 3:58 PM
dear usmani790,
I do not know where you get these ridiculous statistics. Please be scientific and give some evidence of your statistical data:
quote:
99% sunni muslims have learned through the scholars believe that ahadith is the basic source of the religion.If we talk about the previous times until sahabah then this 99% you will find will increased to 100% but never was less than this.
Also in the time of the sahabah, there were no books of hadith. There were no hadith as we have them now. To claim that the sahabah followed 100% hadith is ridiculous! They followed the prophet and his Sunnah, that would be a valid claim. I do not think you understand the difference between Sunnah and Hadith. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 9:51 PM
As I see it, Hadith is not a saying of the Prophet (pbuh), on the contrary, Hadith is, in fact, a saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), with the obvious possibility of being an incorrect or an inaccurate ascription. It is primarily this fact relating to Hadith, which has always promoted extensive investigation in this field among the Muslims, during all times. Thus, the Qur'anic directive relating to the obedience towards the Prophet (pbuh) should not unconditionally be applied on Hadith
Moreover, as is quite obvious that if Hadith had been a primary source of Islam, the Prophet (pbuh) and his companions would have indeed directed all their efforts to the compilation as well as the transmittance of Hadith. However, there is absolutely no evidence of this effort - neither during the times of the Prophet (pbuh) nor during that of the companions. All that can be found are some disjointed individual efforts and that too without the backing or even the approval or support of the collectivity of the Muslims. None of the more well-known companions of the Prophet (pbuh) or even his wives seems to have given Hadith the importance that should have obviously been given to a primary source of Islam - as was the case with the Qur'an (or even the Sunnah)
In contrast to the transmission of the Qur'an and that of the Sunnah Hadith has been transmitted by only one or a few persons in each generation.
In contrast to the transmission of the Qur'an and that of the Sunnah, the transmission of Hadith is critically dependant on not only the correct understanding and perception of the narrators but also their correct and unblemished reporting of that saying or incident. This really implies that even if the chain of narrators comprises of absolutely reliable, honest and intelligent individuals - even those of the caliber of Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) - one can still not be certain about the accuracy of the reported incident or saying. We know that even the most honest, reliable and intelligent individuals are prone to making mistakes in understanding as well as in narrating their understanding.
The variance in the standards of the various scholars and compilers of Hadith relating to the acceptability of a narrative as correctly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh); their mutual differences in the strictness of the application of these standards; their compromises and variations in accepting narratives, which did not fully meet their standards; and their understanding and interpretation of the Qur'an and the text of the reported narratives is in itself an evidence that the work of these compilers and scholars, like that of the Muslim jurists, is based on their own particular interpretation, understanding and appreciation of the problem and should, therefore, not be given divine sanctity. Matters relating to human understanding and the application of such understanding are always open for discussion as well as difference of opinion.The best example in this regard is the difference of opinion of Imam Bukahri and his student Imam Muslim.Both had different standards of accepting and rejecting Ahadith.Can anyone say that they had different standards in accepting or rejecting God's guidance?There are Ahadith in Bukahri which later on were proven to be wrongly ascribed to prophet pbuh.How can this be a part of Deen?
If you consider each of these points closely, you shall see that Hadith, in contrast to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), due to the factors inherent in its transmission overtime cannot be considered an independent source of the Islamic Shari`ah.
Please look into the issue with open mind.We are not rejecting ahadith as it is the only source of prophet's entire life history but it has very obvious weaknesses due to which it can never be considered as a primary source of Deen.
However,under the light of Quran and sunnah there is indeed some great guidance in ahadith and it would be very unfortunate if we don not make use of it. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 10:16 PM
excellent post bro Mujahid and valid reasoning. The issue is hadith as source of religion. Qur'an is calling itself meezan,and furqan. to be those it has to be a comprhensive source of religion.How can the Qur'an be furqan and meezan if further sources of deen are following it. It negates its self.
Last point being that Allah chooses Hazrat Gabriel to bring verses of Qur'an to prophet pbuh. Great emphasis is laid on the precise nature of narrations.Prophet is asked to repeat and recite to make sure it is precise. Prophet pbuh asks selected sahbhi to write the verses down and memorise. Then we come to ahadith, we say they are also sources of ahadith, none written in the life time of prophet pbuh or Abubakr or Umar rta. narrated by individuals. Imam bukhari himself states that he rejected huge number of ahadith as weak and unreliable before selecting the reliable ones. We now say that these and the verses of Qur'an carry equal emphasis in being a source of religion.
The second point is that Muslims from all walks of life accept Qur'an as source of religion. The diversity and contradictions of ahadith are the sources of sectarianism in Islam. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 1:06 AM
Bro Waseem,
It does not end here.All those scholars who believe hadith to be original source of islam also believe that hadith can not only limit but also alter the meaning of Quranic directives.The best examples of these are the Quranic directives on apostasy,punishement for fornication and the Quranic verses which only allowed muslims to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls.Unfortunately,on the basis of Ahadith muslim jurists ignore the very obvious Quranic directives thereby rendering Quranic subjucated to Ahadith.
Ahadith should have been seen in the light of Quran instead our jurists saw Quran in the light of Ahadith......Alas
May God give us wisdom and courage to submit to truth without any fear and speak out loud against something which is so clear. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:11 PM
Quote:- It does not end here.All those scholars who believe hadith to be original source of islam also believe that hadith can not only limit but also alter the meaning of Quranic directives.The best examples of these are the Quranic directives on apostasy,punishement for fornication and the Quranic verses which only allowed muslims to have sexual relations with their wives and slave girls.Unfortunately,on the basis of Ahadith muslim jurists ignore the very obvious Quranic directives thereby rendering Quranic subjucated to Ahadith.
See what Furqan says in this issue.
And We sent down towards you the Advice (i.e. the Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down to them, and so that they may ponder. (16:44)
It is unequivocally established here that the basic function of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is to explain the Holy Book and to interpret the revelation sent down to him. It is obvious that the Arabs of Makkah, who were directly addressed by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) did not need any translation of the Qur’ânic text. The Holy Qur’ân was revealed in their own mother tongue. Despite that they were mostly illiterate, they had a command on their language and literature. Their beautiful poetry, their eloquent speeches and their impressive dialogues are the basic sources of richness in the Arabic literature. They needed no one to teach them the literal meaning of the Qur’ânic text. That they understood the textual meaning is beyond any doubt.
It is thus obvious that the explanation entrusted to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was something more than the literal meaning of the Book. It was an explanation of what Allâh Almighty intended, including all the implications involved and the details needed. These details are also received by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) through the unrecited revelation. As discussed earlier, the Holy Qur’ân has clearly said,
Then, it is on Us to explain it. (75:19)
This verse is self-explanatory on the subject. Allâh Almighty has Himself assured the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that He shall explain the Book to him. So, whatever explanation the Holy Prophet (pbuh) gives to the Book is based on the explanation of Allâh Himself. So, his interpretation of the Holy Qur’ân overrides all the possible interpretations. Hence, he is the final authority in the exegesis and interpretation of the Holy Qur’ân. His word is the last word in this behalf. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:28 PM
Quote:-None of the more well-known companions of the Prophet (pbuh) or even his wives seems to have given Hadith the importance that should have obviously been given to a primary source of Islam - as was the case with the Qur'an (or even the Sunnah)
In contrast to the transmission of the Qur'an and that of the Sunnah Hadith has been transmitted by only one or a few persons in each generation.
Let us see how much the Ahadiths were important for Sahabah.Talking yours own without providing any reference have no use.
Anas reported that the Messenger of God said: "I have left among you two things; you will never go astray as long as you hold fast to them: the Book of God and my Sunnah." (Reported by Haakim.) The Companions of the Prophet, peace be upon him, used to hold the commandments given by the Prophet, peace be upon him, in a very high esteem, making no distinctions between them and those given by God. Once 'Abdullah ibn Mas'ood quoted this saying of the Prophet (hadith) while he was delivering a sermon: "May God curse the women who tattoo their bodies and those who pluck their eyebrows; those who separate their teeth to make them look more pretty and those who try to change the creation of God." A woman named Umm Yaqub from the tribe of Banu Asad came to know of these words. She approached Ibn Mas'ood and said: "O Abu 'Abd ar-Rahman! It was reported to me that you have cursed such and such women." He said: "Why should I not curse those whom the Prophet, peace be upon him, cursed and who are cursed in the Book of God as well." She said: "I have read whatever is contained between the two covers (i.e. the whole Qur'an)." Had you been a good reader, you would have discovered it. Did you not read the following verse?
"So take whatever the Messenger gives you and keep away from what he forbids you." (Surah Al-Hashr 59:7) |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:47 PM
Quote:- May God give us wisdom and courage to submit to truth without any fear and speak out loud against something which is so clear.
Quran says Prophet(pbuh) is the one who teaches the wisdom.Thuth is there in Quran not in your own words.Our own words or any thing without the reference of Quran and saying of Prophet(pbuh) can always be misleading.Have a look on the following verse.
Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164) |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 1:23 PM
Quote: So, whatever explanation the Holy Prophet (pbuh) gives to the Book is based on the explanation of Allâh Himself
Reply: Has the Holy Prophet (sws) explained every verse of Quran?
Let me make a little comment in this discussion, The question is on HOW and WHETHER Ahadith (given the uncertainty associated with them) should be used as an additional source to Quran.
The posts by brother Usmani above are trying to establish the position of the Prophet as a Muallim of Islam. The Prophet's status as a Muallim of Islam is undebatable. However that can only be a side comment in answering this question, but it is certainly not the answer to this question. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 8:57 PM
Brother Usmani, I will try to address each and every aspect of your answer one by one.I will try my best to be brief and precise.
I will substantiate my arguments with references insha'Allah as rightly demanded by you.
First of all,I am wondering if you are aware of the famous hadith al-thaqalyn (two weighty things), which the Prophet mentioned in his last pilgrimage. He clearly and specifically said "Qur'an and Ahlul Bait." He NEVER said Qur'an and Sunnah. This hadith present in ONLY ONE book (al-Mustadrak of al-Hakim), has ONLY ONE narrator and is regarded as WEAK by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim. It is NOT present in ANY of the Sihah Sittah. You are welcome to verify this. The "Quran/Ahlul Bait" version is present in 5/6 Sihah Sittah and its tawatur and isnad is not questioned. My question to you is in light of this overwhelming evidence why do you stress on Quran and sunnah and why not Quran&Ahl e Bait.
So,brother Usmani my first question to you is which hadith do you prefer,Quran&sunnah or Quran&Ahle Bait?Which books of hadith do you prefer,Mustadrak or sihah sittah? |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 9:33 PM
Dear Oosman,
Quote:-I do not know where you get these ridiculous statistics. Please be scientific and give some evidence of your statistical data:
All the Imams of four school of thoughts all the scholars of these schools and the all the followers these schools always have this opinion about ahadith.The people of Ahle Hadith also have the same opinion about the ahadith.These are the people who constitute the sunni muslims.
Only a very small manority of them does not have the same opinion.I have never seen any sunni muslim from my own eyes who says so about the ahadith what people here used to say says.It is really shocking for me.
Brother I am sure you have never study the sahabah life properly.For them there was no diffrence in the words of Quran and in the words of Prophet(pbuh) |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 9:55 PM
Brother Mujahid,
Quote:-Brother Usmani, I will try to address each and every aspect of your answer one by one.I will try my best to be brief and precise.
I will substantiate my arguments with references insha'Allah as rightly demanded by you.
Thank you brother for reconizing the importance of Quran and Sunnah while we are saying any thing in the matter of deen.I will be looking farward to it.I am sure every participant here wish to know the true messeger of Our religion and for that this is the best way.
Jazak Allah Khairen. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:14 PM
Three Ahadith
Prophet sws said;Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." (Ahmad and Muslim).Unfortunately i wanted to send the arabic text with it but the page wont accept it.
Zayd Ibn Thabit ra(The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith," (Sunan of Abu-Dawood under Hadith No. 1635 (3640):
Narrated 'Urwa:
Aisha ra said, "Buraira came to me and said, 'I have agreed with my masters to pay them nine Uqiyas (of gold) (in installments) one Uqiya per year; please help me.' I said, 'I am ready to pay the whole amount now provided your masters agree that your Wala will be for me.' So, Buraira went to her masters and told them about that offer but they refused to accept it. She returned, and at that time, Allah's Apostle was sitting (present). Buraira said, 'I told them of the offer but they did not accept it and insisted on having the Wala.'.' The Prophet heard that." 'Aisha narrated the whole story to the Prophet . He said to her, "Buy her and stipulate that her Wala' would be yours as the Wala' is for the manumitted." 'Aisha did so. Then Allah's Apostle stood up in front of the people, and after glorifying Allah he said, "Amma Badu (i.e. then after)! What about the people who impose conditions which are not in Allah's Book (Laws)? Any condition that is not in Allah's Book (Laws) is invalid even if they were one hundred conditions, for Allah's decisions are the right ones and His conditions are the strong ones (firmer) and the Wala' will be for the manumitted(Bukhari).
Brother Usmani the above Ahadith would have made it clear to you the significance of Ahadith in the eyes of prophet sws. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:33 PM
Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said: Whoever changes his Religion, kill him.(Bukahri)
Quran says;whoever among you renounces faith and then dies while he was a rejecter, these are the people whose deeds shall all be lost during the life of this world as well as during the hereafter and these are the people who shall be the inmates of the Hellfire, they shall remain in it forever. (Baqara verse 217)
The same act of apostasy has been mentioned in Al e Imran verse 90,Nissa 137,Nahl 106 and no where death penalty has been mentioned.
Brother Usmani,it is upto you whether you prefer Quranic directives or Hadith directives as there is a glaring contradiction in both.
I am only limiting myself to one reference for the moment and produce more if you ask for it as one should be sufficient to prove my point. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:38 PM
Brother Usmani,i request you to give me reference of just one Hadith where prophet sws said that there is no contradiction in Ahadith and they will be protected by God.On the contrary Quran has very strongly said that God has taken the responsibility to protect it.
Do you not wonder that if the explanation of quran was in the Ahadith Allah would have given the same level of protection to Ahadith which it gave to Quran?
I would be grateful if you could give direct answers and explanations to my concerns. |
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Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 2:06 PM
Brother Usmani,you write;
Brother I am sure you have never study the sahabah life properly.For them there was no difference in the words of Quran and in the words of Prophet(pbuh).
First of all i would admit that i may not be as well versed with the life of sahaba as you seem to be but i can assure you that i am not living in darkness.I have understood religious issues with absolute fairness and rationality by the grace of God.
Regarding your second point that for sahaba there was no difference between Quran and words of prophet Please have a look at the following hadith and think again about your claims;
Fatima bint Qais narrates that her husband Abu umru bin Hafs gave her third divorce while he was in yemen.He also advised his relatives to give her some money as well.The relatives said that we don’t consider Fatima deserving of this wealth unless she is pregnant.When Prophet sws was asked he said there is no money and shelter for her.
When this narration of Fatima reached Umar ra he said that on the report of a lady I cannot leave the obvious directives of Quran.We cannot say for sure whether she remembered the words completely or partially.Umar ra then recited the following verse from Quran;
Turn them(The divorced women) not out of their houses, nor should they [themselves] leave, except in case they are guilty of some open lewdness.(Surah Talaq 65 verse 1).The above hadith is from muslim kitab ul talaq.
Can you see brother how clear sahaba were in their understanding of Deen and in their relation of Quran and hadith.Would you still say that FOR SAHABA THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURAN AND SUNNAH? |
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