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Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  1:14 PM Reply with quote
quote:

This is the opinion of Moiz Amjad from the Understanding Islam web site


it would be more accurate to say that when used in this connotation, the word Dharaba means to 'spread in an encompassing manner'. Nevertheless, because the Qur'an has not specified the limits of this 'spreading', it implies that these limits are to be decided by the individual. Furthermore, it should be kept in mind that the directive of the Qur'an is not merely to 'spread' the Khimar (head-covering) over themselves, but, on the contrary, it is to spread their khimar over their chests. I really do not think that the phrase 'spread the khimar over their chests' can be taken to imply covering ears. The neck, on the other hand, can indeed be included in the scope of this 'spreading'.

Waseem, you and your Gurru MOiz both are WRONG!!!!!!!!!!
oosman

USA
Posted - Friday, November 10, 2006  -  7:04 PM Reply with quote
Dear Marwan,

I would not wish you to leave this forum. Please stay.

quote:

regarding having no problem with All view points, this is not a Qur'anic position.


It depends on what you are talking about. If it is about monotheism, then yes, there is only one view point. But this rule cannot be expanded to everything.

Islam is about tolerance and accepting the right of others to believe how they interpret the Shariah with true intentions, and not with mischief. I do not think any of us have mischief in our minds, alhumdullilah.

If there was only one right way of interpreting, then we would not have the so many schools of Islam with different opinions. What are the famous sunni schools? Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi'i, Hanbali. Do they all agree on everything? No. Then there are the Shia schools also. There is Wahbism, Salafism and so many other isms. Each have their own interpretation. Yet each of them co-exist, and we are all Muslims.

Please do not be soo rigid. Learn to accept that other people have a right to their interpretation, just like we accept your right to your interpretation. Practice the way you feel is the correct interpretation, and I will practice the way I feel is the correct way. I hope Allah will judge us for our intentions and our efforts, and forgive us if we make a mistake in understanding.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  1:20 AM Reply with quote
sister Nida.This is Moiz Amjad's opinion on hijab and etiquettes of gender interaction.

I have stated before that what we must appreciate is what is a definite religious binding and what may be acceptable or likeable. something may be prohibited and another disliked.

At present what I know I find Moiz Amjad's opinion relevant on this matter.However I do not expect everyone to agree with me.

Brother Puppy salaam

Moiz Amjad is not my guru.I agree with his point of view on this matter, there are others that I disagree with him and agree with other scholars. No one scholar can claim to know the entire truth.Allah knows best

The Qur'anic verse which mentions the prescribed etiquette of interaction between males and females gives the following directives:

When entering a place of someone's residence, Muslim men and women should first seek permission for entrance. They should enter the house only if they are granted permission.

When sitting in a mixed gathering, both the Muslim men as well as women should not try to lure someone from the opposite sex with their gazes. In other words, they should avoid staring at each other in a suggestive way.

While in a mixed gathering, both the Muslim men and women should wear dresses that adequately cover their private parts. Any dress that is revealing or that may in any way arouse sexual thoughts in the minds of any member of the opposite sex should be avoided.

While in such a gathering, women should avoid displaying their apparels and ornaments that they normally wear. This directive does not apply to those adornments, which are normally visible. On the contrary, this directive enjoins women to avoid intentionally displaying their adornments and apparels.

As a part of directive c and d, women have specifically been ordained to spread their head-coverings over their neck-lines and their chests so that they are adequately covered. Moreover, as a part of these directives, women are also directed to refrain from catching the attention of those present by the sounds of their bangles and similar other ornaments which they may be wearing on their feet.

Keeping the foregoing explanation in perspective, it is clear that the Qur'anic directive does not expressly direct women to cover their heads and faces. One may, however, be of the opinion that even though the Qur'anic directive as explained in point no. e above, does not expressly direct women to cover their heads, yet it clearly implies the covering of the head. Nevertheless, on the other hand, one may be of the opinion that the referred directive of the Qur'an has only directed women to spread a cloth - which may be a part of their head-covers or a separate sheet of cloth - over their neck-lines and chests. Thus, in short, there can be a difference of opinion as to whether or not 'head-covering' for women is a part of the directives of the Shari`ah relating to the etiquettes of interaction between males and females.

In my opinion, even if there can be a difference of opinion as to whether or not head-covering for women is an essential part of the directives of the Shari`ah related to the interaction between males and females, yet no one can challenge the fact that head-covering for women has remained an integral part of the noble social traditions of in each one of the three Abrahamic traditions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Head-covering has traditionally been considered a symbol of nobility and modesty in all of these traditions. In view of this significance of head-covering, I feel more inclined towards recommending for all Muslim women to adhere to this practice.

In contrast to 'head-covering', which in my opinion, is a part of our social customs and traditions, face-covering is neither a directive of the Shari`ah nor a permanent part of the customs and traditions of the Muslim societies.
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  12:25 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Liberal- my understanding is someone who is tolerant of others beliefs and open minded. The opposite to this is Fascism- Which to me implies bigot, prejudiced, intolerant of others beliefs and views. So those who keep reffering others as liberals, would they then like to be adressed as fascists.
regards

quote:

I agree you are not a liberal. I am happy to call you a fascist. You fit the bill perfectly, opinionated, bigoted, disregard for the facts just your own misguided prejudices and completely closed mind. So I am in full agreement with you and will not refer to you as liberal. At least we agree on something.
regards

What a nonsense and overconfidence is!!!!!!!!! Self defining or setting the criteria and imposing on others. This is called neither Liberal nor Fascism but Chuttuism.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  12:36 PM Reply with quote
So you do not agree with Moiz Amjad, right Brother Waseem? You agree that head-covering is a part of the Sharee'ah?
Puppy

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  12:46 PM Reply with quote
You are correct, Nida!!!!!!!!!!
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  3:33 PM Reply with quote
It would be Shariah if Allah had said it. Since only people have said that, it can only be Fiqh.

Shariah is the word of Allah. And even Marwan admitted Allah never explicitly said to cover the head. From there on he makes logical deduction that head should be covered. Since it is a logical conclusion and human intellect has been used to reach this decision, it cannot be called Shariah, but can be called Fiqh.

Salaam.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 11, 2006  -  4:37 PM Reply with quote
Quote:
And even Marwan admitted Allah never explicitly said to cover the head...

oosman, Brother marwan also admitted that Allah has not explicitly mentioned the covering of the legs or stomach...You get my point right?
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  4:53 AM Reply with quote
Salam sister Nida. My opinion and I stress my very limited and humble opinion on this matter is in agreement with Moiz Amjad as stated below


As a part of directive c and d, women have specifically been ordained to spread their head-coverings over their neck-lines and their chests so that they are adequately covered. Moreover, as a part of these directives, women are also directed to refrain from catching the attention of those present by the sounds of their bangles and similar other ornaments which they may be wearing on their feet.

Keeping the foregoing explanation in perspective, it is clear that the Qur'anic directive does not expressly direct women to cover their heads and faces. One may, however, be of the opinion that even though the Qur'anic directive as explained in point no. e above, does not expressly direct women to cover their heads, yet it clearly implies the covering of the head. Nevertheless, on the other hand, one may be of the opinion that the referred directive of the Qur'an has only directed women to spread a cloth - which may be a part of their head-covers or a separate sheet of cloth - over their neck-lines and chests.

The two other issues are what are the norms of society and culture. Well for a muslim women in my opinion would clearly be to cover the head in a muslim country.

Secondly my personal preferance or choice. If I was a muslim women then what I know about the religion now , I would cover my head but not the face.I feel it gives dignity and respect to women.This is far more impressive then beauty.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  7:38 AM Reply with quote
Quote:
Well for a muslim woman in my opinion it would clearly be to cover the head in a muslim country.

Are you trying to say that a Muslim woman may not cover her head in a non-Muslim country?

And please answer this question directly:
Do you think that it is obligatory for Muslim women to cover their heads?
Yes or no?

Wassalaam.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  8:41 AM Reply with quote
QUOTE: I have already given you example of Hazrat Sakina (daughter of Imam Hussain)…………………. This is found in Tarikh al-Rusul wa al-Muluk or Tarikh al-Tabari, book by Al-Tabari, a famous Muslim historian and Quran Tafsir writer.

Everyone agrees that the age of Hazrat Sakina (daughter of Imam Hussain) was only 4 years old at time of the enouncement between Yazid and Imam Hussain (Ra).

It was Hazrat Zainab (the real sister of Imam Hussain) and she commanded the forces after the Martyrdoms of Imam Hussain. She along with other family members (mostly women and children) and the supporters was imprisoned and presented to Yazid’s court. Because of the circumstances, at that time she had NOTHING to cover her head. So with even bare head she addressed Yazid.

The incidence of Karbala accrued 50 years after the time of death of the prophet (peace be upon him). At the time of death of the prophet (peace be upon him), neither Hazrat Sakina nor perhaps Hazrat Zainab was born. So the better interpretation can be done keeping in mind the life of wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) otherwise the circumstances in which Hazrat Zainab did not cover her head were different.

QUOTE: Regarding the grand daughter of the prophet PBUH, do you know what the circumstances were at that time?

Regarding the circumstances, I think, you are right.

QUOTE: First you need to present evidence of this. IN REPOSE TO “Men are thought to react more to visual-sexual stimuli, their capacity to objectify a woman's body being undeniable”
QUOTE: Present your evidence to contrary. IN REPOSE TO “I have mentioned before that women have just the same sexual impulses as men”

As the subject of the quotes is related to some branch of science, so in scientific terms, what are the criteria of VALIDITY of any evidence or the reference??

*******************

By the way, sorry to say, it is the common observation that females in general are shy, whether they are humans, animals, birds or insects etc. Even in their sexual/estrous period etc the females are naturally reluctant and they do not easily allow the males to come near them. The males have to do a lot of struggle to do the act. Those who have different animals and birds etc in their farms know this fact very well. I think this type of attitude is under influence of the sex hormone. Though both the hormones have the same parent biochemical substance called “CHOLESTROL” but individually have the DIFFERENT biochemical and physiological properties.
waseem

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  8:43 AM Reply with quote
sister salaam

In my personal opinion and I stress personal opinion.Muslim women should cover their head in a muslim and non muslim country.

In my opinion it is not obligatory. By that I mean it is not haraam not to cover the head.The religion implies and encourages to do it.It is part of our social and cultural tradition and would be my personal preferance too.
Loveall

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  9:32 AM Reply with quote
I agree to the logic of brother Waseem.

Wassalaam!
oosman

USA
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  1:49 PM Reply with quote
I agree with waseem also, it is not obligatory, but it is not haram to not do it. You cannot force others to do it, that would be transgression.
Nida_e_Khair

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  4:23 PM Reply with quote
oosman, I agree that you cannot force others to do it, but I totally disagree that it is not part of the Sharee'ah.
oosman

USA
Posted - Sunday, November 12, 2006  -  8:35 PM Reply with quote
to be shariah, it has to be the word of God. Even marwan said that it is not explicitly said in the Quran to cover the head. therefore it is not word of God, but man's interpretation. So it is Fiqh.

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