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atifrafi

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, June 28, 2006  -  7:06 AM 
I accept my mistakes and I should not indulge in such debate. I also apologise for my such behaviour and grateful to brother Junaid for guiding me to the right path. Thanks a lot brother.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, June 28, 2006  -  10:50 AM 
Dear Atif:

There's absolutely nothing to thank.

I don't think you need to apologize but your humble and self-criticizing attitude has inspired me much. This is a rare quality; please do keep it with you. It’s going to help you a lot in your educational research and its practical aspects.

Yours Brother,

Junaid
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, June 29, 2006  -  12:07 PM 
Quote:- I think there’s nothing left in this discussion but mere argue. The viewpoints of both the parties are very clear. Now it should be left upon the readers whom they want to agree with.

Reply:-Brother be patience for a little while only.You are miss reading the discussion.Surely Brother Tariq is not the person who will waste his valueable time in such a discussion.

I will be more carefull in future.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 1, 2006  -  11:53 AM 
Brother Tariq Hashmi
Assalam Alaikum

Quote:-I am sorry i could not understand what you mean by saying this.

Reply: -What I mean that if you have daubt in some sources of religious knowledge (Ahadith), why not you ask Allah to help you on that. I am sure if one is seriously ask help from Allah, He is always there to help us.

Remember the 1st surah of Quran teach us the dua . (Keep us on the right path. The path of those upon whom Thou hast bestowed favors). The blessed peoples used to call Authentic Ahadith their Medhab.

I know you also know this,but to remind another brother just in case.

Quote:-Now it comes to slander. When did anyone here say that they challenge the words of the Prophet (pbuh). I seek refuge of the Almighty from even thinking of that. I would request you brother not to be judgmental if you want any good for others.

Reply:-I never said that you are challenging the words of Prophet (pbuh). Yours openly rejections of Ahadith in this course and in this forum clearly showing your hesitation, actually you are in fact rejecting ahadith {Saying of Prophet (pbuh)} on the basis of your own aqil and research.

All the great scholar of Islam accepting Authentic Ahadith without any hesitation,on the other side you have no trust on the ahadith narators. You are saying that its person to person transmission. Don’t you know that who were those narrators were. The are the greatest personality in the history of Islam.The single narrator is more reliable than thousand of us. I will request you to please ponder over it calmly.

I don’t know what is the actual reasons due to which you are pushing ahadith aside, but mostly people who don’t follow that ahadith the reason behind mainly they thought that the ahadith are providing lots of binding and risk/hurdle in the freedom of their daily life, progress of mankind.

Quote from this course

According to the Muslim ideology, if we want to find out the Sunan, we should
look for them in the traditions and practices of Muslim Ummah and not in the
books of history

What would you call it brother if not hesitation or rejcetion. What we see these days at least in our country that the lies, fraud, theft, corruption, every one is behind money don’t bother which way its coming in, are common practice of majority here. These things are more visible in the practices of our socity. Only a small percentage is following the sunan to an extend. The people who are following sunan are no way due to the traditions and practice of Muslim around them but due the knowledge they got from Quran and Ahadith directly or indirectly.

There are already lots of evils around us and in these darkness you want to take away this light from peoples.

Sister Shira has open few new forum on 27.06.2006.Beside Quran there are many ahadith as well. Have a look and see the light one can get from these ahadith.

If you will call Ahadith book of history and declare them not the basic source of religion so definitely people would not take ahadith seriously they might even not look at them at all.

What we get from Ahadith as per Quran.(Quote from the book of Taqi Usmani Sahib)

Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164)

These are the terms of reference given to the Holy Prophet (pbuh ) which include four distinct functions and the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has been entrusted with all of them:

(1) Recitation of the Verses of Allâh.
(2) Teaching the Book of Allâh.
(3) Teaching the Wisdom.
(4) Making the people pure.
Thus, the Holy Qur’ân leaves no ambiguities in the fact that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is not supposed to merely recite the verses and then leave it to the people to interpret and apply them in whatever manner they like. Instead, he is sent to “teach” the Book. Then, since teaching the Book is not enough, he is also required to teach “Wisdom” which is something additional to the “Book.” Still, this is not enough, therefore the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has also to “make the people pure,” meaning thereby that the theoretical teaching of the Book and the “Wisdom” must be followed by a practical training to enable the people to apply the Book and the Wisdom in the way Allâh requires them to apply.
These verses of the Holy Qur’ân describe the following functions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh):

(a) He is the authority in the way the Holy Book [the Qur’ân] has to be recited.
(b) He has the final word in the interpretation of the Book.
(c) He is the only source at which the wisdom based on divine guidance can be learned.
(d) He is entrusted with the practical training of the people to bring his teachings into practice.

These functions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) can never be carried out unless his teachings, both oral and practical, are held to be authoritative for his followers, and the Muslims who are given under his training are made bound to obey and follow him. The functions (b) and (c), namely, the teaching of the Book and Wisdom require that his sayings should be binding on the followers, while the function (d), the practical training, requires that his acts should be an example for the Ummah, and the Ummah should be bound to follow it.

Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164)

Our creater saying to us that He is surely blessed the believers by raising the Messenger and discribing the four functions. Allah is saying that before they were in open error. The believers will still be living with error if they would not make use of these functions. The only source to find these functions is ahadith.Your defined Sunnah does not cover these functions.

I will give you an example here.

A person can be a mechanic by working in a garage where he learned to repair the motor from the senior mahanics. But this machanic can never be able to design a new car because he doesn’t have the knowledge to do so. Only an automobile engineer can designed it, because he went to the university to accrue required knowledge for that.

Before Islam we knows what Sahabah(RA) used to do. But after accepting Islam and acquiring the knowledge of deen (these functions) directly from the Prophet (pbuh) has changed their personality by 180 degree. Their Eemaan, their commitment with Abadaat, their dealings with peoples and socity, their Ikhlaq was at the very high level. This was the reason people only seeing them used to accept the Islam.The blessing of Allah were with them and what they done and achieved for Islam every one knows.

This the record of history (Ahadith) is the source where we learned these knowledge and improve our life as a Muslim.This is normally a long process and gradually we can felt the change in our self depending how one is commited. Beside all others goods which I mentioned above, the check is praying five times a day, Fast in the month of Ramadhan, spending in way of Allah will not be a burden any longer for us. Once we will fear Allah in a true sense and will make Him happy. Resulting we will have no fear of any one else and to make them happy unnecessary like our bosses in offices and so on and so forth.

Jo aik Sajda Tujay Giran Guzerta Hai
Haasar Sajdoo say Tujeh Delata hai Nejat

Quote:-What I said is that we need to establish the usage of the word in the language of the Qur'an and the classical Arabic language.

Reply: -Best source is ahadtih for this. The Arabic language of that time. The language of Prophet (pbuh) and the peoples who were around Him.

Quote:-I am sorry to say that if the word Sunnah in these narratives refers to sayings or an act of the Prophet (pbuh) (i mean an act done sometime during his life i do not mean practice) then we need to mourn over our understanding of any language at all.

Reply:-It means that you are wrongly understood the usage of the word Sunnah.It was hiding from you until now. Take it easy brother and take your time. I know its not easy to accept the truth if it goes against the understanding of years.

Here I am posting some more ahadith from Sahih Bukhari which puts some more light on the usage of the word Sunnah and the matter describe also very important.

Narrated Al-Bara': The Prophet delivered the Khutba on the day of Nahr ('Id-ul-Adha) and said, "The first thing we should do on this day of ours is to pray and then return and slaughter (our sacrifices). So anyone who does so he acted according to our Sunna; and whoever slaughtered before the prayer then it was just meat that he offered to his family and would not be considered as a sacrifice in any way. my uncle Abu Burda bin Niyyar got up and said, "O, Allah's Apostle! I slaughtered the sacrifice before the prayer but I have a young she-goat which is better than an older sheep." The Prophet said, "Slaughter it in lieu of the first and such a goat will not be considered as a sacrifice for anybody else after you." (Book #15, Hadith #85)

Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)

Narrated Abu Musa: The Prophet said, "My example and the example of what I have been sent with is that of a man who came to some people and said, 'O people! I have seen the enemy's army with my own eyes, and I am the naked warner; so protect yourselves!' Then a group of his people obeyed him and fled at night proceeding stealthily till they were safe, while another group of them disbelieved him and stayed at their places till morning when the army came upon them, and killed and ruined them completely So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)

Narrated Humaid: I heard Muawiya bin Abi Sufyan delivering a sermon. He said, "I heard the Prophet saying, "If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna. I am but a distributor, and Allah is the Giver. The state of this nation will remain good till the Hour is established, or till Allah's Order comes." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #415)

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom (i.e., Qur'an and Sunna) and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (to others i.e., religious knowledge of Qur'an and Sunna (Prophet's Traditions)). " (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

Narrated Sa'id bin 'Ubada Al-Ansari: that he consulted the Prophet about a vow that had been made by his mother who died without fulfilling it. The Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna (i.e. the Prophet's tradition). (Sahih Bukhari Book #78, Hadith #689)

Quote:-Then it definitely contradicts your understanding of what Sunnah is (Sunnah to you covers every act the Prophet (pbuh) did, said or approved of).
May God give us the ability to understand what is truth and grant us the courage to uphold it.

Reply:-When 'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) said that its not the sunnah then its not the Sunnah.

Only the absolute statements of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) are binding, because they are given in his capacity of a prophet on behalf of Allâh Almighty. As for an action or a word spoken by him as a personal need and guess, and not as an absolute statement, it should be duly honoured, but it should not be taken as part of Sunnah.

If this is not the case then you still can see that Muslims are fighting with the weapons and using the horses and camel in the battle filed as Prophet (pbuh) use to do those days.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Monday, July 3, 2006  -  5:37 PM 
Brother Usmani:

Assalamo'alaikum.

I'd like to reflect upon some of your points which, to the best of my understanding, may seriously mislead the reader. Please know that I don't want to argue but learn through this discussion.

You wrote, "The blessed peoples used to call Authentic Ahadith their Medhab."

Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) didn't adopt "rafa-yadain" even if it is evident from the authentic ahadith because he was of the view that doing so was against the established Sunnah. Therefore, the best people didn't call the authentic ahadith their madhab.

You wrote, "The are the greatest personality in the history of Islam.The single narrator is more reliable than thousand of us."

They might be the greatest but Surah-e-Hujrat tells us that even one of such greatest personalities lied to the Holy Prophet (SAW) due to which a war nearly broke out.

You wrote, “Only a small percentage is following the sunan to an extend. The people who are following sunan are no way due to the traditions and practice of Muslim around them but due the knowledge they got from Quran and Ahadith directly or indirectly.”

Majority of the sunan are still being followed. Doesn’t matter how worse of the Muslims we are, we still back five daily prayers, fasting of Ramadan, all rituals of Hajj and Umrah, the rates and ceilings of Zakah, the Eid prayers, the Friday Prayers, the funeral prayers, nikah, circumcision of male children, saying prescribed words in the ears of the newborn, the tradition of burying the dead after bathing and wrapping the dead bodies in coffin cloth, greeting each other with assalamo’alaikum and wa’alaikumassalam, cutting nails, cleaning the mouth, nose and teeth, abstaining from intercourse during menstruation, removing undesired hair and washing after urination, defecation and intercourse. One thing should be kept in mind here that, more or less, all of us follow these sunan (or at least know that these are religious obligations) in spite of the fact that most of us have a little or no knowledge of the Qur’an and Hadith.

Now if anyone calls wearing an imamah or white dress or certain perfume a Sunnah, and then tries to find these acts in the Muslim society, then I’m sorry I can do nothing about it but to mourn over one’s understanding of the Sunnah.

You wrote, “There are already lots of evils around us and in these darkness you want to take away this light from peoples.”

None of the whole team wants to take the light of ahadith away. Ahadith, without any doubt, are a great source of learning for a Muslim. The whole Section IV of the “Introduction to Hadith” course reflects upon the significance of Ahadith in Islam. Please go through that.

You have quoted some ahadith from Sahi of Bukhari (RA). None of these adhadith says that Sunnah do not refer to the acts or are something more than the acts.

The first hadith: “The first thing we should do on this day of ours is to pray and then return and slaughter (our sacrifices). So anyone who does so he acted according to our Sunna.”

Of course, praying and slaughtering both are “the religious acts” and therefore are Sunnah.

The second haidth: “…the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna.”

Of course, people learnt the practical aspect of the Qur’an from the religious actions (Sunnah) of the Prophet (SAW).

The third hadith: “Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty.”

I’m unable to understand of how is it proven from this hadith that the Sunnah are the directives and not the actions? It simply says both the Quran and Sunnah strengthened their honesty and nothing more.

The fourth hadith: “So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought."

Again I wonder what you want to prove from this hadith. Does it say anything like Sunnah are not acts or something?

The fifth hadith: “If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna.”

Nothing is proven, in your favour, from this hadith too. The name of the Sunnah course on this website too is: “Understanding the Sunnah”. What is the problem with it? Understanding means knowing which of the acts are Sunnah and which are not and then practicing accordingly.

I leave out the sixth hadith. I should’ve left the fifth one too as the word Sunnah is not mentioned in any of these two ahadith. It is only written in the brackets.

The seventh hadith: “…the Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna.”

I think fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is a practice which the above hadith is referring to as Sunnah.

You wrote, “Only the absolute statements of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) are binding, because they are given in his capacity of a prophet on behalf of Allâh Almighty.”

You are very right and everyone here agrees with it. But it still doesn’t mean that ahadith are the basic source. If anyone renders them the basic source then one has to admit, consequently, that the Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty of conveying this basic source to us as he didn’t preserve it (like he preserved the Qur’an and Sunnah) in his lifetime. Neither Khulfa-e-Rashideen did so. Sahi Muslim and Sahi Al-Bukhari mostly contain authentic ahadith which we all follow. Still these two books cannot be regarded as exalted as the Holy Qur’an. That is why later muhaddiseen criticized and filtered out some of the ahadith of these two books. Students of hadith also know that the words of ahadith do not often reflect the true words that came from the Prophet’s (SAW) tongue but their meaning as per narrator’s understanding.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Junaid
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, July 5, 2006  -  12:51 PM 
Brother Junaid

Assalam Alaikum.

Quote:-You wrote, "The blessed peoples used to call Authentic Ahadith their Medhab."

Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) didn't adopt "rafa-yadain" even if it is evident from the authentic ahadith because he was of the view that doing so was against the established Sunnah. Therefore, the best people didn't call the authentic ahadith their madhab.

Reply:-Both ways were from Prophet(pbuh),so he only can slect one. But he still believe that the rafa-yadain also from the Prophet (pbuh).

What I said above is actually said by Imam Abu Hanifah himself. Have a look.

Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: "My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic." (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.)

How can you denied some one saying like that.

I wrote, "The are the greatest personality in the history of Islam.The single narrator is more reliable than thousand of us."

You wrote:-They might be the greatest but Surah-e-Hujrat tells us that even one of such greatest personalities lied to the Holy Prophet (SAW) due to which a war nearly broke out.

Reply:-Our father our teachers must have lied in their life some where and some times even its comes to our notice as well. But we still believe in them and listen them what they are saying is true. If we won’t.There is no comparison of Sahabah and them.Have a look on following verses of Quran and sunnah.

All who obey Allah and the apostle are in the company of those on whom is the Grace of Allah,- of the prophets (who teach), the sincere (lovers of Truth), the witnesses (who testify), and the Righteous (who do good): Ah! what a beautiful fellowship! (Al-Quran)

You shall not find a people who believe in Allah and the latter day befriending those who act in opposition to Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their (own) fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their kinsfolk; these are they into whose hearts He has impressed faith, and whom He has strengthened with an inspiration from Him: and He will cause them to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding therein; Allah is well-pleased with them and they are well-pleased with Him these are Allah's party: now surely the party of Allah are the successful ones.(58:22)

Prophet said: "The best of my nation is my generation then those who follow them and then those who follow them." (Saheeh Bukhaaree)

The Prophet said: "Whoever abuses my Companions, upon them is the curse of Allah, the Angles and all the people" (Saheeh, At-Tabaranee)

Allah's praise of the Companions also extends to all those who follow their way. Allah said: {The forerunners those who came first among the Migrators and the Helpers and those who followed them with the best. Allah is pleased with them and they are pleased with Him and Allah has prepared for them gardens beneath which rivers flow therein forever and that is the great success.} At-Taubah: 100

The only protection for this Ummah is to stick to the way of the Companions and the first generations.

Abi Burda reports from his father: "We prayed Maghrib with Allah's Messenger (s.a.w.s) then we said: Why not sit until we pray Isha with him (s.a.w.s)? And so we sat and the Prophet (s.a.w.s) came out to us and said: "Are you still here?" We said: "O Allah's Messenger we prayed Maghrib with you and we decided to sit here until we pray Isha with you." He (s.a.w.s) said: "You have done well." Then, he raised his head toward the heavens - and he used to do that frequently - and said: "The stars are the protection for the sky - when the stars have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to the sky. I am the protection for my Companions - when I have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to my Companions. My Companions are the protection for this Ummah - when they have gone, that which has been forewarned will come to this Ummah." (Muslim)

Do not revile my companions. By (Allah) in Whose Hand my soul is!, if any one of you spends gold (piled up) like (mount) 'Uhud it will not equal a pint of any one of them, nor its half." (al-Bukhari, Muslim, Abu-Dawud, at-Tirmidhi Ibn Majah, Ibn Hanbal

I wrote, “Only a small percentage is following the sunan to an extend. The people who are following sunan are no way due to the traditions and practice of Muslim around them but due the knowledge they got from Quran and Ahadith directly or indirectly.”

Quote:-Majority of the sunan are still being followed. Doesn’t matter how worse of the Muslims we are, we still back five daily prayers, fasting of Ramadan, all rituals of Hajj and Umrah, the rates and ceilings of Zakah, the Eid prayers, the Friday Prayers,

Reply:-These are not sunan rather Fard.

Quote:-the funeral prayers, nikah, circumcision of male children, saying prescribed words in the ears of the newborn, the tradition of burying the dead after bathing and wrapping the dead bodies in coffin cloth, greeting each other with assalamo’alaikum and wa’alaikumassalam, cutting nails, cleaning the mouth, nose and teeth, abstaining from intercourse during menstruation, removing undesired hair and washing after urination, defecation and intercourse.

Reply:-In His 23 years of Prophethood, He just thought these sunan to the companions or there may be few more which you might missed from list of sunan mentioned in this course.Not even two sunan in a year,I don’t know weather I should laugh on you or cry on you gentelman and your understanding of sunan.

Quote:-One thing should be kept in mind here that, more or less, all of us follow these sunan (or at least know that these are religious obligations) in spite of the fact that most of us have a little or no knowledge of the Qur’an and Hadith.

Reply:-Ya very true brother we follow these sunan and that what the writer of this couse thught that this is what the deen is all about.Follow these few sunan and thats it. Along with this sunan with are doing many bad things, which I mentioned earlier. Peoples are praying five times a day and along with that taking bribe, fasting in the month of ramadan and as ramadan ended we again become devil having lots of money but don’t want to feed pure people and so on. We use to attend the janaza of our relations and friends after performing this sunan we don’t take any lesson from it and again start our routine business.

Allah says
Establish regular Prayer: for Prayer restrains from shameful and unjust deeds; and remembrance of Allah is the greatest (thing in life) without doubt. And Allah knows the (deeds) that ye do. (29:45)

Most of peoples who pray regularly but does not stop with shamefull and unjust deeds.Why? because our heart is become very dirty and this dirt can only be removed from the sunnah of peophet(Atuantic ahadith of this kinds).


Quote:-Now if anyone calls wearing an imamah or white dress or certain perfume a Sunnah, and then tries to find these acts in the Muslim society, then I’m sorry I can do nothing about it but to mourn over one’s understanding of the Sunnah.

Reply:-Brother these things are surely the sunnan of our prophet(pbuh) but not are obligatary.Who ever follow these sunan of Prophet (pbuh) surely show his love towards Him.

Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Wear your white garments, for they are among your best garments, and shroud your dead in them.

You wrote, “There are already lots of evils around us and in these darkness you want to take away this light from peoples.”

Quote:-None of the whole team wants to take the light of ahadith away. Ahadith, without any doubt, are a great source of learning for a Muslim. The whole Section IV of the “Introduction to Hadith” course reflects upon the significance of Ahadith in Islam. Please go through that.

Reply:-I have gonethrough it.Still there is a big difference between this team and rest of Muslims(including my self) regarding the understanding of Sunnah.We says that all authantic Ahadith are Sunnah but this team differ from it.They are standing alone one side and on the other side there is a consensus amongs Muslims.

There is a saying of Prophet(pbuh) that my ummah will never unite on the wrong thing.

Qoute:-You have quoted some ahadith from Sahi of Bukhari (RA). None of these adhadith says that Sunnah do not refer to the acts or are something more than the acts.

Hadith-The first hadith: “The first thing we should do on this day of ours is to pray and then return and slaughter (our sacrifices). So anyone who does so he acted according to our Sunna.”

Quote:-Of course, praying and slaughtering both are “the religious acts” and therefore are Sunnah.

Reply:-slaughtering before prayer is not Sunnah.

The second haidth: “…the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna.”

Quote:-Of course, people learnt the practical aspect of the Qur’an from the religious actions (Sunnah) of the Prophet (SAW).

Reply:-This hadith is talking about “Honesty”.How can we learn:Honesty” this from this course provided Sunnah please explain?

The third hadith: “Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty.”

Quote:-I’m unable to understand of how is it proven from this hadith that the Sunnah are the directives and not the actions? It simply says both the Quran and Sunnah strengthened their honesty and nothing more.

Reply:- This also the same hadith

The fourth hadith: “So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought."

Quote:-Again I wonder what you want to prove from this hadith. Does it say anything like Sunnah are not acts or something?

Reply:-This course provided Sunnah is only the established practices.

Quote from this hadith:- 'O people! I have seen the enemy's army with my own eyes, and I am the naked warner; so protect yourselves!'

All this kind of knowledge(Where Prophet warned people of many things) can only be find in Ahadith.

The fifth hadith: “If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna.”

Quote:-Nothing is proven, in your favour, from this hadith too. The name of the Sunnah course on this website too is: “Understanding the Sunnah”. What is the problem with it? Understanding means knowing which of the acts are Sunnah and which are not and then practicing accordingly.

Reply:-Wisdom based knowledge can only be find in ahadith.

Qoute:-I leave out the sixth hadith. I should’ve left the fifth one too as the word Sunnah is not mentioned in any of these two ahadith. It is only written in the brackets.

Reply:-So if any word is in braket mean some thing not real.

The seventh hadith: “…the Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna.”

Qoute:-I think fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is a practice which the above hadith is referring to as Sunnah.

Reply:- Yes you are right.It also showing the wrong undersatnding of the Sunnah in this course.

Quote:- Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty of conveying this basic source to us as he didn’t preserve it (like he preserved the Qur’an and Sunnah) in his lifetime.

Reply:-You know more than Prophet what His duty is.Brother don’t talk like that.Sahaba used to ask him to write his sayings and he gave permission to them.This was one way of preserving the Ahadith.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, July 5, 2006  -  5:35 PM 
Wa’alaikumassalam-Wa-Rehmatullah.

First, I request you to please stay close to the point in discussion. You seem to deviate here and there time and again.

Point No. 1:

You wrote, “Both ways were from Prophet(pbuh),so he only can slect one. But he still believe that the rafa-yadain also from the Prophet (pbuh).”

Further you quoted, “Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: ‘My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic.’ (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.)”

Now please stay to-the-point in your answer: If both the ways are from Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and both confirmed from the authentic ahadith, why did he have to select only one, why not both of them? Is it better to follow one religious way of the Prophet (SAW) or all of them?

In the above quote of the exalted Imam (RA), he is saying: “whatever hadith that is proved to be authentic.” Please note here that the authenticity of a hadith is not objective but subjective to one’s own understanding. One hadith may be authentic to one scholar whereas the same hadith may be weak in the eye of another scholar according to his own research and understanding. If you know the history of hadith, you will find a number of such ahadith which are authentic to one scholar whereas weak in the eye of another.

See Sahi Bukhari: Hadith No. 698, 699, 700, 701 and 702 – all these clearly telling that the Prophet (SAW) did rafa-yadain. This surely contradicts Imam Abu Hanifah’s (RA) above quote “if we consider it in the light of your understanding”.

Point No. 2:

I said, “They might be the greatest but Surah-e-Hujrat tells us that even one of such greatest personalities lied to the Holy Prophet (SAW) due to which a war nearly broke out.”

In its answer, you quoted Quranic verses and ahadith in the praise of the esteemed companions of the Prophet (SAW). I fully respect them too but my point was not that. My simple point is that there is a difference between Prophet (SAW) and any other man however high he may be. Answer in yes or no: Does Surah-e-Hujrat tell us about a companion of the Prophet (SAW) who lied to the Prophet (SAW) and because of this act a war was going to break out? If yes then Surah-e-Hujrat also wants us to research whenever some information reaches us. This is what muhaddaseen have done in the case of ahadith. As the ahadith reached them through person-to-person transmission long after the death of the Prophet (SAW), they (according to their own research and understanding) filtered out authentic ones from those of the weak ones. Note here that none of the narrators or muhaddaseen was a Prophet. It was man’s work and errors are expected in man’s works. An extensive research on Sahi Bukhari and Muslim shows that most of their ahadith are authentic. For every Muslim who hears a hadith of the Prophet (SAW) and then understands that it is true, he must act according to it. Of course, this is the madhab of every Muslim (as hadith explains nothing but the Quran and Sunnah) still the basic sources are only the Qur’an and Sunnah.

You cannot say that the ahadith are not person-to-person transmissions. Without any doubt, they are! Even the so called “mutwatir ahadith” are person-to-person transmissions too. However high the number of narrators of such ahadith may be, they do not even make up quarter of the whole Ummah. Therefore one cannot say that there is a consensus of the Ummah on a particular hadith. Though all of such ahadith are very very authentic in their nature.

I fully agree that the companions of the Prophet (SAW) and some other men (not all) of the first three-hundred years of Islam were the best people, far better than us but still, they were not Prophets and they could make mistakes. One of such mistakes is mentioned in Surah-e-Hujrat. If you want to disagree, please do not tell me of the Quranic verses praising the companions (RA) as I already agree that they are the best people. Please also do not forget that there were hypocrite and sinful people too in the first three hundred years of Islam who used to narrate ahadith. You cannot call them the best people.

Point No. 3:

You wrote, “These are not sunan rather Fard.”

Some sunan are obligatory, still they are sunan.

Point No. 4:

You wrote, “In His 23 years of Prophethood, He just thought these sunan to the companions or there may be few more which you might missed from list of sunan mentioned in this course. Not even two sunan in a year,I don’t know weather I should laugh on you or cry on you gentelman and your understanding of sunan.”

The Religion that Allah T’ala has revealed is very clear to us, alhamdulillah! If you laugh or cry, that’s your opinion – do whatever you like.

If you wish to add upon in the list of sunan then you’re most welcome. Scholastically add to the list and we’ll happily follow you.

Point No. 5:

You wrote, “Ya very true brother we follow these sunan and that what the writer of this couse thught that this is what the deen is all about.Follow these few sunan and thats it. Along with this sunan with are doing many bad things, which I mentioned earlier.”

You have put a severe blame on the writer. Now prove where he has said that follow these sunnah and your religion is complete? What is said is that the Quran and Sunnah are the basic sources and the hadith is their explanation; all these three should be taken and followed. I’m sorry, it is your unfair understanding which is wrong and not the writer.

We have to pay Zakat (according to the rate fixed in the Sunnah) and do not bribe because of the Quranic directives in such matters. However, it must be understood that Zakat is a Sunnah and it was obligatory for Muslims even before the edvent of Isalm.

Point No. 6:

You wrote, “Brother these things are surely the sunnan of our prophet(pbuh) but not are obligatary.Who ever follow these sunan of Prophet (pbuh) surely show his love towards Him.”

I agree that we love our Prophet (SAW) and that’s why try to follow him in every aspect of life. But the word Sunnah only depicts the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) that he asked his Ummah to follow. If you think that other acts are Sunnah too then you surely have a better understanding of the Sunnah than the Mother Ayesha (RA) who referred to a particular act of the Prophet (SAW) and said that it was not Sunnah.

Point No. 7:

“Still there is a big difference between this team and rest of Muslims(including my self) regarding the understanding of Sunnah. You wrote, “We says that all authantic Ahadith are Sunnah but this team differ from it.”

Please speak on your behalf. Rest of all the Muslims do not disagree to the definition of the Sunnah provided in this course. (I’m talking about the literary Muslims.) And there is not a big difference among you and this team if you try to analyze the situation in a little depth. We say that all the authentic ahadith are the explanation of the Qur’an and Sunnah. This seems more correct as the word Sunnah itself depicts the acts and secondly, the authentic ahadith also explain many a directive of the Qur’an instead of explaining the Sunnah alone.

Point No. 8:

“There is a saying of Prophet(pbuh) that my ummah will never unite on the wrong thing.”

Please be careful in quoting the words of ahadith. The above hadith can confuse the reader as most of us are indulged in wrong things today – you said it yourself earlier. The authenticity, explanation and true essence of the above hadith are required.

Point No. 9:

You wrote, “slaughtering before prayer is not Sunnah.”

Fully agreed! Who said that slaughtering before prayer is a sunnah?

Point No. 10:

You wrote, “This hadith is talking about “Honesty”.How can we learn:Honesty” this from this course provided Sunnah please explain?

The third hadith: “Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty.””

Following the Quranic directives and the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) (Sunnah) surely strengthens the level of faith and honesty in a person. “Learning the honesty” is not mentioned in the hadith. What is mentioned is “strengthening”. Please ponder upon it carefully.

Point No. 11:

You wrote, “This course provided Sunnah is only the established practices.”

Yes, Sunnah are only the established (religious) practices of the Ummah. Any hadith contradicting these established practices was not taken by muhaddaseen. If you want, now criticize the rules of muhadaseen that they established in scrutinizing a hadith not the Studying Islam team.

Point No. 12:

You wrote, “All this kind of knowledge(Where Prophet warned people of many things) can only be find in Ahadith.”

You are right. And that is why ahadith are extremely important in understanding the Religion.

Point No. 13:

The fifth hadith: “If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna.”

You wrote in accordance with the above hadith, “Wisdom based knowledge can only be find in ahadith.”

That is your own interpretation that has got nothing to do with the above hadith. However, generally, I understand and respect the interpretation of the Quranic word “hikmah” by Imam Shafi (RA).

Point No. 14:

You wrote, “So if any word is in braket mean some thing not real.”

The words in brackets are not part of the original text but explanation of the original words as understood by the interpreter.

Point No. 15:

I wrote, “I think fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is a practice which the above hadith is referring to as Sunnah.”

You replied, “ Yes you are right.It also showing the wrong undersatnding of the Sunnah in this course.”

Sunnah does not immerge from hadith, in fact, hadith is accepted or rejected (by muhaddaseen) on the basis of the Quran and Sunnah. I said, “which the above hadith is referring to” which means that it is called a Sunnah in the above hadith by the narrator. The narrator said that the verdict became a Sunnah. However only consensus will show if it, in fact, is a Sunnah or not instead of the saying of one narrator alone.

Point No. 16:

I wrote, “If anyone renders them the basic source then one has to admit, consequently, that the Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty of conveying this basic source to us as he didn’t preserve it (like he preserved the Qur’an and Sunnah) in his lifetime.”

You cut the first part of my sentence and presented the rest. That was very unethical. I cannot dare to say that our beloved Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty. Preserving the ahadith was not his duty and that is why he didn’t do so. However, preserving the Quran and Sunnah were his duties that he fulfilled completely without any doubt.

Point No. 17:

I’m raising another point here:

In addition to the six most authentic books of ahadith that ehl-e-sunnah follow, there are four other books (written by extremely pious personalities) that ehl-e-tashee follow. Now if hadith is the basic source, I hope you will take and follow the ahadith from those four books too.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 8, 2006  -  12:55 PM 
Brother Junaid

Assalam Alaikum.

You Write: -First, I request you to please stay close to the point in discussion. You seem to deviate here and there time and again.

Point No. 1:

You wrote, “Both ways were from Prophet (pbuh), so he only can select one. But he still believe that the rafa-yadain also from the Prophet (pbuh).”

Further you quoted, “Imam Abu Hanifah also declared: ‘My way (Arabic: madh-hab) is whatever hadith (saying of the Prophet) that is proved to be authentic.’ (Shami 1:50, Al-Fulani in Iqaz, p. 62.)”

Quote:-Now please stay to-the-point in your answer: If both the ways are from Prophet Muhammad (SAW) and both confirmed from the authentic ahadith, why did he have to select only one, why not both of them? Is it better to follow one religious way of the Prophet (SAW) or all of them?

Reply:-I is having no daubt in my mind that Imam Abu Hanifah knows better than you that what is better. Any way if you think otherwise, you have another there option for you.

There are four established Madahb and all differ little bit in few things and Salat as well. What ever these four great scholars felt better after their deep study they select that one.

Quote:-In the above quote of the exalted Imam (RA), he is saying: “whatever hadith that is proved to be authentic.” Please note here that the authenticity of a hadith is not objective but subjective to one’s own understanding. One hadith may be authentic to one scholar whereas the same hadith may be weak in the eye of another scholar according to his own research and understanding. If you know the history of hadith, you will find a number of such ahadith which are authentic to one scholar whereas weak in the eye of another.

Reply: -Yours way on looking at ahadith (to me) is different and misleading one. Any way then what is the solution of that. Believing that ahadith is important source what should you will do to benefit from them having this in yours mind what you stated above.

Point No. 2:

Quote:-I said, “They might be the greatest but Surah-e-Hujrat tells us that even one of such greatest personalities lied to the Holy Prophet (SAW) due to which a war nearly broke out.”

Reply: -How do you know about this event?this event is not mentioned in Quran nor in yours understood Sunnah neither in ahadith. May be in the history of those days even if this event in mentioned in ahadith how sure you are this is the true event? Any things suit you, you can believe in it and if it does not suits you, you will have many reasons to differ from it.

Point No. 3:

I wrote, “These are not sunan rather Fard.”

You Wrote: -Some sunan are obligatory, still they are sunan.

Reply: -So it means that there no fard in your medhab?

Point No. 4:

I wrote, “In His 23 years of Prophethood, He just thought these sunan to the companions or there may be few more which you might missed from list of sunan mentioned in this course. Not even two sunan in a year, I don’t know weather I should laugh on you or cry on you gentleman and your understanding of sunan.”

You Wrote:-The Religion that Allah T’ala has revealed is very clear to us, alhamdulillah! If you laugh or cry, that’s your opinion – do whatever you like.

If you wish to add upon in the list of sunan then you’re most welcome. Scholastically add to the list and we’ll happily follow you.

Reply:- Brother you made me very sad,what you gays trying to do, redefining that religion?.That’s what hapend when the basic of religion is not clear to any one,so he keep going in the wrong direction while he will be thinking he is on the right way.

Point No. 5:

I wrote, “Ya very true brother we follow these sunan and that what the writer of this course thought that this is what the deen is all about.Follow these few sunan and thats it. Along with this sunan with are doing many bad things, which I mentioned earlier.”

You Write:-You have put a severe blame on the writer. Now prove where he has said that follows these Sunnah and your religion is complete? What is said is that the Quran and Sunnah are the basic sources and the hadith is their explanation; all these three should be taken and followed. I’m sorry, it is your unfair understanding which is wrong and not the writer.

Reply: -Have a look on the following statement, which I copied from this course: -

Quote: -
The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.

Point No. 6:

I wrote, “Brother these things are surely the sunnan of our prophet (pbuh) but not are obligatary. Who ever follow these sunan of Prophet (pbuh) surely show his love towards Him.”

You wrote: -You wrote:-I agrees that we love our Prophet (SAW) and that’s why try to follow him in every aspect of life.
Reply:-Now you got it.Good.
Reply:-But the word Sunnah only depicts the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) that he asked his Ummah to follow.

Reply:-This team has come up with a list of religious acts which they thauught that this is what religion is all about.

Quote from this course:-
The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.

They failed to realised that so many others things which are obligatory for Muslims we find in the sayings of Prophet(pbuh).Have a look on the following verse.

Today the good things have been permitted to you. (5:5)

Here, the “good things” are not explained.

Please show me from this course provided Sunnah the list of permitted things since its not explained in Quran.Which animals and food we can eat.
The detailed list of the lawful “good things” has only been given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) who has described the different kinds of food being not lawful for the Muslims and not falling in the category of “good things.”

This is just one example out of many others.How can you call ahadith not the basic source of religion brother.

You write:- If you think that other acts are Sunnah too then you surely have a better understanding of the Sunnah than the Mother Ayesha (RA) who referred to a particular act of the Prophet (SAW) and said that it was not Sunnah.

Reply:-Brother you are wrongly interpreting that what our Mother Ayesha(RA) has said.This only apply to that particular act of Prophet(pbuh). You can not make a rule from this sayings of Mother (Ayesha (RA). There many saying of prophet which clearly show what Sunnah is. The ahadith I mentioned from sahih Bukari and before that from Sunan Abu daud are good example what Sunnah is.

This is the problem with this team and you that what suits you,you want to follow it and don’t want to accept the Prophet(pbuh) own sayings of Sahih Bukari and Sunan Abu Daud.

Point No. 7:

I wrote:-Still there is a big difference between this team and rest of Muslims(including my self) regarding the understanding of Sunnah. You wrote, “We says that all authantic Ahadith are Sunnah but this team differ from it.”

You wrote:-Please speak on your behalf. Rest of all the Muslims do not disagree to the definition of the Sunnah provided in this course. (I’m talking about the literary Muslims.)

Reply:-Give me the names of those scholars other then this website’s scholars have given the names of eight well known schalors,who explained the understanding of Sunnah as I have mentioned here.

1) Hakim ul Ummat Molana Ashraf Ali Thanvi
2) Molana Maudoodi Sahib
3) Dr.Inees Ahmed
4) Dr.Israr Ahmed
5) Dr.Zakir Naik
6) Yusuf Estes
7) Dr. Farhat Hasmi
8) Mufti Taqi Usmnai

To these eight personalaties I have listen or had read their work as far as understanding the Sunnah is concered.

Point No. 8:

I wrote:-“There is a saying of Prophet(pbuh) that my ummah will never unite on the wrong thing.”

You wrote:-Please be careful in quoting the words of ahadith. The above hadith can confuse the reader as most of us are indulged in wrong things today – you said it yourself earlier. The authenticity, explanation and true essence of the above hadith are required.

Reply:-What I meant that Muslim will never unite in some thing or on some issue which wrongly ascribe to religion by some individual or by some group that this the matter of religion.But acutely it is not.So there will never be the consensus of Muslims at large.I will try to get the actual hadith with its reference.

Point No. 9:

I wrote, “slaughtering before prayer is not Sunnah.”

Fully agreed! Who said that slaughtering before prayer is a sunnah?

Reply:-This can be added to the list of sunan of this course any way.

Point No. 10:

I wrote, “This hadith is talking about “Honesty”.How can we learn:Honesty” this from this course provided Sunnah please explain?

You wrote:-The third hadith: “Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty.””

Following the Quranic directives and the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) (Sunnah) surely strengthens the level of faith and honesty in a person. “Learning the honesty” is not mentioned in the hadith. What is mentioned is “strengthening”. Please ponder upon it carefully.

Reply:-Brother you miss it.See once again carefully.

Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)

Point No. 11:

I wrote, “This course provided Sunnah is only the established practices.”

You wrote:-Yes, Sunnah are only the established (religious) practices of the Ummah. Any hadith contradicting these established practices was not taken by muhaddaseen. If you want, now criticize the rules of muhadaseen that they established in scrutinizing a hadith not the Studying Islam team.

Reply:-What we are discussing is what is Sunnah is in the eyes of Prophet(pbuh).Have look on the hadith once again.

So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought."

The practical acepts of the deen(which Prophet(pbuh) taught us) we follows and the sayings of prophet(pbuh) (Virbal orders)we obey.The truth is what Prophet brought we can more can find in sayings of Prophet(pbuh) (Ahadith).Prophet calling all of these his Sunna.

The true path is very clear for you, now it is entirely up to you,weather you make happy this team or Allah and his Messenger(pbuh).


Point No. 12:

I wrote, “All this kind of knowledge (Where Prophet warned people of many things) can only be find in Ahadith.”

You Wrote:-You are right. And that is why ahadith are extremely important in understanding the Religion.

Reply:-Have a look on the hadith again.

So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)

Prophet(pbuh) calling all these ahadith his Sunna.

The true path is very clear for you, now it is entirely up to you,weather you make happy this team or Allah and his Messenger(pbuh).

Point No. 13:

The fifth hadith: “If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna.”

Quote:-You wrote in accordance with the above hadith, “Wisdom based knowledge can only be find in ahadith.”

That is your own interpretation that has got nothing to do with the above hadith. However, generally, I understand and respect the interpretation of the Quranic word “hikmah” by Imam Shafi (RA).

Reply: -Ahadith are full many kind of knowledge which took us to the straight path and give us knowledge how can we pleased Allah or we find these knowledge in the Quran.So many people read the Quran and Ahadih but only those will be truly benefited from them, to whom Allah bestows His favor.

Point No. 14:

I wrote, “So if any word is in braket mean some thing not real.”

You wrote: -The words in brackets are not part of the original text but explanation of the original words as understood by the interpreter.

Reply:- Have a look on the hadith again.

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom (i.e., Qur'an and Sunna) and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (to others i.e., religious knowledge of Qur'an and Sunna (Prophet's Traditions)). " (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

(And he give his verdicts according to it and teaches it.).This I re write from the hadith to show that Prophet calling religious wisdom to Quran and Ahadith.

On point 13 you said(You wrote in accordance with the above hadith, “Wisdom based knowledge can only be find in ahadith.”)

Now you see how good I was interprating that When I had said that (Wisdom based knowledge can only be find in ahadith.).

Brother you still have tome to wake up still not too late.If you want to understand only on the Day of Judgment,it will be too late.

Point No. 15:

You wrote, “I think fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is a practice which the above hadith is referring to as Sunnah.”

I replied, “ Yes you are right.It also showing the wrong undersatnding of the Sunnah in this course.”

You replied:-Sunnah does not immerge from hadith, in fact, hadith is accepted or rejected (by muhaddaseen) on the basis of the Quran and Sunnah. I said, “which the above hadith is referring to” which means that it is called a Sunnah in the above hadith by the narrator. The narrator said that the verdict became a Sunnah. However only consensus will show if it, in fact, is a Sunnah or not instead of the saying of one narrator alone.

My Reply:-As I said earlier any does not suit you,you accept it.Brother Abullah(RA)is a sahabi,I think you still don’t understand what is a Shabi stand for.Do your investigation first then reject the saying os Sahabi.Do know what kind of people you are.

I tell you here a very key thing free of charge.If you want get the wisdom of Quran and Sunnah, don’t reject the saying of a Sahabi like that.

Point No. 16:

You wrote, “If anyone renders them the basic source then one has to admit, consequently, that the Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty of conveying this basic source to us as he didn’t preserve it (like he preserved the Qur’an and Sunnah) in his lifetime.”

You cut the first part of my sentence and presented the rest. That was very unethical. I cannot dare to say that our beloved Prophet (SAW) didn’t fulfill his duty. Preserving the ahadith was not his duty and that is why he didn’t do so. However, preserving the Quran and Sunnah were his duties that he fulfilled completely without any doubt.

Sorry for my mistake.Have a look on the ahadith as followings

Those present should convey (my sunnah) to those absent [Bukhari].

Convey to others on my behalf, even though it be a single verse [Bukhari].

May Allâh grant vigor to a person who listens to my saying and learns it by heart until he conveys it to others [Tirmidhi, Abu Dâwûd].

You hear (my sayings) and others will hear from you, then others will hear from them [Abu Dâwûd].

A Muslim cannot offer his brother a better benefit than transmitting to him a good hadîth which has reached him [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân of Ibn ‘Abdul Barr].

Whoever is questioned pertaining to such knowledge that he has and thereafter conceals it, will be bridled by a rein of fire [Tirmidhi].

One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:

“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi’ ibn Khadij (pbuh), the famous companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “I said to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied

You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
. Sayyiduna Anas (pbuh) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has said:

Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Âs (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to him: Preserve knowledge.
He asked, “and how should it be preserved?” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, “by writing it.” [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]

I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]

During the conquest of Makkah (8 A.H.), the Holy Prophet (pbuh) delivered a detailed sermon containing a number of Sharî’ah imperatives, including human rights. One Yemenite person from the gathering, namely, Abu Shah, requested the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to provide him the sermon in a written form. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) thereafter ordered his companions as follows:
Write it down for Abu Shah. [Sahîh-ul-Bukhâri]
These directions given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were more than sufficient to induce his companions towards acquiring the knowledge of ahâdîth and to convey them to others

Point No. 17:

I’m raising another point here:

In addition to the six most authentic books of ahadith that ehl-e-sunnah follow, there are four other books (written by extremely pious personalities) that ehl-e-tashee follow. Now if hadith is the basic source, I hope you will take and follow the ahadith from those four books too.

Reply: -Don’t raised new point. Let’s us finished the earlier one first. Then Insha Allah we will talk about it also.

Sincerely,

Sohail Usmani
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 8, 2006  -  9:54 PM 
Dear Brother, Usmani:

Wa’alaikumassalam-wa-Rehmatullah.

I’m so sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings in any way. Please forgive me. I hope we two brothers are not arguing but discussing positively in order to correctly understand Allah’s D’in.

Please make sure that we all believe in hadith and are of the view that it contains jewels of wisdom. Hadith is extremely important in understanding Islam and without it, many a directive of Qur’an are not possible to be understood correctly. You have also mentioned one of such directives in your viewpoint above.

Also, please positively read my viewpoints. I hope we’d develop a consensus soon.

Point No. 1:

You wrote, “There are four established Madahb and all differ little bit in few things and Salat as well. What ever these four great scholars felt better after their deep study they select that one.”

Brother, you haven’t answered my questions regarding this. Great, Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) has ignored fifteen authentic ahadith, including those of Sahi Bukhari, in the matter of rafa-yadain. Note that any directive of the Qur’an cannot be ignored as the Qur’an is the basic source of D’in and any diversion from it is considered to be a diversion from the D’in. However, such strictness is not there in the matter of hadith as one may prefer one hadith over another and even discard a hadith if it appears to contradict the Qur’an and Sunnah or any other established hadith. Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) was a man of literate and he had his reasons for not adopting rafa-yadain. I cannot dare saying that the grand Imam (RA) deviated from D’in; he relied on Hadrat Abdullah-bin-Masood’s (RA) hadith, in this regard, who was against rafa-yadain - preferring his hadith over all the other ahadith (though they were authentic too).

This clearly shows that in spite of the great importance of hadith in the D’in, it is not the basic source that is why it can be deviated from (not in all but) in certain situations, for example, if it contains broken chain of narrators or has hidden defects or contradicts another established hadith or is against the Qur’an etc.

Point No. 2:

You wrote, “Yours way on looking at ahadith (to me) is different and misleading one. Any way then what is the solution of that. Believing that ahadith is important source what should you will do to benefit from them having this in yours mind what you stated above.”

Why is my way a misleading one? Only because it doesn’t match yours? Please don’t be judgmental. However intelligent and wise you may be, it is possible that Allah may have given a better understanding of some matters to someone else as compared to you.

My forefathers are hanafi; they strictly follow the hanafi madhab and are of the opinion that one must follow only one madhab (out of four) at a time. When I saw rafa-yadain ahadith in the Sahi Bukhari, I started doing rafa-yadain in my prayers – in a way that in some prayers I do it and in others, leave it. By doing so, I follow the uswa-e-hasana of the Prophet (SAW) that I have come to know through ahadith. Isn’t it a benefit of the hadith in my life?

Point No. 3:

You wrote, “How do you know about this event?this event is not mentioned in Quran nor in yours understood Sunnah neither in ahadith. May be in the history of those days even if this event in mentioned in ahadith how sure you are this is the true event? Any things suit you, you can believe in it and if it does not suits you, you will have many reasons to differ from it.”

This event is mentioned not only in one but a number of authentic ahadith.

Tibrani (RA) has copied this hadith, on the authority of Hadrat Jabir-bin-Abdullah, from Alqama-bin-Nahia (RA) and Hadrat Ume-Salma (RA).

Ibn-Jarair (RA) has also described this hadith on the authority of Hadrat Ib-e-Abbas (RA).

More so, Ahmad (RA) etc. have also mentioned this hadith on the authority of Hadrat Harris-bin-Zarar (RA).

Believing a thing which suits us and deviating from the things which do not suit us is, once again, a severe blame. Please do not blame us of the things we do not do; for sure Allah is watching us all.

Point No. 4:

You wrote, “So it means that there no fard in your medhab?”

We all follow one and only one D’in that is Islam. Having minor differences does not mean that any one of us has a different madhab.

I think you follow Hanafi school of thought that is why you’re confusing sunan with fard. In hanafi school of thought, the nawafil that the Holy Prophet (SAW) offered are called sunan to highlight their importance. This has got nothing to do with the Islamic law. Because of this differentiation, some people think that fard, sunan and nawafil are the three main differentiations. However, in Shafae, Malaki or Hambli school of thoughts, such differentiation is not present. Either there is nafal or fard.

Of course, there are obligatory or fard things in our D’in. A sunnah can also be fard like five time prayers in a day.

Point No. 5:

You wrote, “Brother you made me very sad,what you gays trying to do, redefining that religion?.That’s what hapend when the basic of religion is not clear to any one,so he keep going in the wrong direction while he will be thinking he is on the right way.”

No one is redefining the Religion, please don’t be judgmental; only present your criticism in a healthy way so that we may correct ourselves if we are wrong somewhere.

Point No. 6:

You wrote, The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'an
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.”

It is true that within these two the whole Islam is preserved. It doesn’t mean that the Hadith is excluded from the D’in. What it means is that the basic directives are in the Qur’an and the basic practices are in the Sunnah. Once again I’d mention here that the Hadith is the “explanation of the Qur’an and Sunnah” which compliments both of these two (and doesn’t say anything in addition to them) that is why it is not included in the basic sources.

Please, Brother, try to understand our viewpoint. If you’ll only be judgmental and critical, you wouldn’t be able to understand us. Even people have criticized the Holy Qur’an, and have gone astray, when they’ve read it only for the sake of criticism.

Point No. 7:

You wrote, “This team has come up with a list of religious acts which they thauught that this is what religion is all about.”

This team has tried to explain what the Sunan are, not the whole D’in (in the Sunnah course). Why do you forget that the very course is only to explain the Sunan? Still Quranic directives are there which are not discussed in this course because it is a Sunnah course which doesn’t deal with the Quranic directives. D’in is comprised of the Quran and Sunnah. Quranic directives without which the D’in cannot be completed in any sense are not discussed in this course.

Point No. 8:

You wrote, “They failed to realised that so many others things which are obligatory for Muslims we find in the sayings of Prophet(pbuh).Have a look on the following verse.

Today the good things have been permitted to you. (5:5)

Here, the “good things” are not explained.”

What a good example. I think the consensus has already been developed here. This is exactly what we say.

Here is the source (the Quranic directive):

Today the good things have been permitted to you. (5:5)

And here is the explanation (Hadith) in reference to the above Quranic directive:

The detailed list of the lawful “good things” has only been given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) who has described the different kinds of food being not lawful for the Muslims and not falling in the category of “good things.”

Again in the above example, the Qur’an is the source and hadith is its explanation.

Point No. 9:

You wrote, “Brother you are wrongly interpreting that what our Mother Ayesha(RA) has said.This only apply to that particular act of Prophet(pbuh). You can not make a rule from this sayings of Mother (Ayesha (RA). There many saying of prophet which clearly show what Sunnah is. The ahadith I mentioned from sahih Bukari and before that from Sunan Abu daud are good example what Sunnah is.”

How can you say that it only applies to one particular act of the Prophet (SAW)? What was that “particular thing” about that particular act which lead it out of the Sunan? It was that the very act wasn’t a religious act. Therefore, we can surely understand from this hadith (if it’s authentic) that only the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) were Sunan.

You added, “This is the problem with this team and you that what suits you,you want to follow it and don’t want to accept the Prophet(pbuh) own sayings of Sahih Bukari and Sunan Abu Daud.”

The hadith in discussion is very clear. Now honestly tell me: is it you changing the clear meaning of the hadith or us?

As I said earlier, Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) has ignored all the ahadith of Sahi Bukhari that come in the favour of rafa-yadain. Refute this claim of mine if you’re truthful in your saying.

Point No. 10:

You wrote, “Give me the names of those scholars other then this website’s scholars have given the names of eight well known schalors,who explained the understanding of Sunnah as I have mentioned here.”

Please also provide the references of the books or talks of the scholars that you have mentioned to have the view that all of the acts of the Prophet (SAW) are sunan. Here is my list:

1. Hadrat Ayesha Saddiqa (RA) (Ref: Hadith already quoted above.)
2. Maulana Syed Abu-al-A’la Maududi (Ikhtalaf-e-Ummat aur Sirat-e-Mustaqeem, Maulana Muhammad Yusuf Ludhayanvi, Page 170)
Please remove this name from your list.
3. Javed Ahmad Ghamidi (Ref: Asol-o-Mubadi, Page:63)
4. Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman (Ref: Geo: Alif, D’in mai Hadith ka Muqam)
5. Prof. Qalb Bashir Khawar (Lectures: UMT 2003-05, Phone:03004733774)

Point No. 11:

You wrote, “This can be added to the list of sunan of this course any way.”

This already is presented in the list of the Sunan. See: Understanding the Sunnah, Module 2, Page 4, Point 24. which says: “Sacrificing animals on Eid-ul-Adha.” The explanation of this Sunnah is mentioned in the hadith that you quoted.

Point No. 12:

You quoted a hadith, “Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)”

I have already said that the practical teachings of the Qur’an are, of course, learnt from the Sunnah. And by practically acting upon the Sunnah of the Prophet (SAW), the honesty of a believer strengthens. What is so difficult to understand about this hadith?

Earlier I said, ““Learning the honesty” is not mentioned in the hadith. What is mentioned is “strengthening”.” Because you used the words: “How can we learn:Honesty…”

Point No. 13:

You wrote, “.The truth is what Prophet brought we can more can find in sayings of Prophet(pbuh) (Ahadith).Prophet calling all of these his Sunna.”

Astaghfir-ullah! Please, my dear Brother, I beg you not to say this now. This is purely your own interpretation and understanding of the above hadith. For Allah’s sake do not ascribe your own understanding to the Holy Prophet (SAW). When did he call hadith his sunnah in the above hadith?

In any way, I have already made it very clear that once a hadith is proven to be rightly ascribed to the Prophet (SAW), no Muslim can dare to do against it. I feel it is obligatory for me to act according to the authentic ahadith whether they are in Sahi Bukhari, Sahi Muslim or Tirmizi etc.

The hadith is like this:

“…So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)”

Where has he called the Hadith the Sunnah in this hadith?

Point No. 14:

You wrote, “Ahadith are full many kind of knowledge which took us to the straight path and give us knowledge how can we pleased Allah or we find these knowledge in the Quran.So many people read the Quran and Ahadih but only those will be truly benefited from them, to whom Allah bestows His favor.”

I totally agree!

But the point was that your explanation and the very hadith in discussion had no match that is why I said, “That is your own interpretation which has got nothing to do with the above hadith. However, generally, I understand and respect the interpretation of the Quranic word “hikmah” by Imam Shafi (RA).”

Though I agreed with your point even before still I highlighted that the hadith you quoted and the thing you were describing were not in harmony with each other.

Point No. 15:

You wrote, “And he give his verdicts according to it and teaches it.).This I re write from the hadith to show that Prophet calling religious wisdom to Quran and Ahadith.”

Here is the hadith without any brackets:

Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

Where in the world in this hadith the Prophet (SAW) called any hadith a sunnah? This is a serious offence to ascribe anything to the Holy Prophet (SAW) which he hasn’t said. I wonder why you’re doing this. For Allah’s sake, stop it!

“Hikma” refers to hadith. This is Imam Shafai’s (RA) interpretation of the Quranic word. Not all scholars agree to it. I hope you will not ascribe it to the Holy Prophet (SAW) again.

Point No. 16:

You wrote, “As I said earlier any does not suit you,you accept it.Brother Abullah(RA)is a sahabi,I think you still don’t understand what is a Shabi stand for.Do your investigation first then reject the saying os Sahabi.Do know what kind of people you are.”

Now what should I say? You even don’t know that ahadith are not directly narrated by the esteemed companions of the Prophet (SAW) but there is a long chain of narrators in between until they reach a particular muhaddis. If a hadith had any shortcoming, muhaddiseen used to take it as the viewpoint of the last narrator. I say: “the last narrator” not the companion from whose authority the hadith was coming.

In any case, fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is an act.

Point No. 17:

You have mentioned various ahadith which do not answer my basic point. “It was that the Holy Prophet (SAW) didn’t preserve the ahadith as he did in the case of the Qur’an and Sunnah.”

1st hadith: Those present should convey to those absent [Bukhari].

I don’t know to whom and in which circumstances the Prophet (SAW) said this therefore I cannot say anything about it. However, I know that the Qur’an and Sunnah are conveyed to us through the word-of-mouth and practice of the ummah respectively.

2nd hadith: Convey to others on my behalf, even though it be a single verse [Bukhari].

3rd hadith: May Allâh grant vigor to a person who listens to my saying and learns it by heart until he conveys it to others [Tirmidhi, Abu Dâwûd].

4th hadith: You hear (my sayings) and others will hear from you, then others will hear from them [Abu Dâwûd].

Again, I don’t know the circumstances and addresses of the above ahadith but it appears that the Prophet (SAW) is clearly referring to the hadith in all of the above ahadith.

All the words of the Prophet (SAW) that are conveyed to us in an authentic way – we can never dare to deny them. So our viewpoint is quite clear in this regard.

5th hadith: One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:

“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]

6th hadith: Râfi’ ibn Khadij (pbuh), the famous companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “I said to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied

You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]

7th hadith: I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]

5th and 6th ahadith show that it was not an order but either a way out (of forgetting) or a casual permission respectively.

However, in the 7th hadith, it seems as if it is an order. I do not know how authentic this hadith is, what were the circumstances and who were the addresses but I do know that the ahadith were not comprehensively written down in the lifetime of the Prophet (SAW), neither Hadrat Abu Bakr or Umar (RA) took any interest in compiling them. However, some companions had written down some ahadith out of their own interest. This is a historical truth. I wonder if the Holy Prophet (SAW) really ordered his sayings to be written down, it is out of my understanding of why it was not done.

Please look into the following hadith as well:

“I’m a human being after all, when I order you something about your D’in, take it, and when I tell you something out of my own opinion, my status is not more than this that I am a human being… I told you something out of guess. Do not accuse me of such things which are based on guess and personal opinion. Though when I say something from Allah then take it because I will never ascribe falsehood to Allah… You know your worldly deeds better.”

(Muslim, 2263, 2361, 3262)

Therefore the Prophet (SAW) ordered us to take from him what was religious. Because of this, we differ in what is sunnah and what not.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, July 9, 2006  -  2:10 AM 
Quote:-Now if anyone calls wearing an imamah or white dress or certain perfume a Sunnah, and then tries to find these acts in the Muslim society, then I’m sorry I can do nothing about it but to mourn over one’s understanding of the Sunnah.

Reply:-Brother these things are surely the sunnan of our prophet(pbuh) but not are obligatary.Who ever follow these sunan of Prophet (pbuh) surely show his love towards Him.

If these things are sunnan then walking on sand,doing rafa-hajat out of one's house ,eating the foods the prophet(pbuh) ate ,eiding on caamels,etc... are sunnan ?
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Sunday, July 9, 2006  -  10:32 PM 
Dear Shaan:

Assalamo'alaikum & welcome to this discussion.

Literally, Sunnah in Arabic means "well trodden path". However as a religious term, its definition is as follows:

Sunnah is the set of traditions of Prophet Abraham (SAW) (Sunan-e-Ibrahimi) which the Holy Prophet Muhammad (SAW) revived, and after corrections and additions, instituted in his followers as an integral part of their faith (the D'in).

Here is the notion of the above definition in the Holy Qur'an:

"And then We revealed unto you (the command) to follow the religion of Abraham, who was steadfast and was not one of the polytheists." (16:123)

In the light of the above definition, all the unreligious matters like walking on sand, riding on camels, covering the head, using specific Arab perfumes etc. are out of the boundary of the Sunnah.

Hope I’ve answered your question. However, this is my understanding and opinion; you may disagree if you find any fault in the definition above.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan

(Ref: Understanding the Sunnah, Module 1, Page: 5, www.studying-islam.org)
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 10, 2006  -  10:53 AM 
How is it judged that wether something is religious in nature or not ?

Some people think that using miswak for cleaning teeths is sunnah and using sword for wars and camel for riding is not because the prophet (pbuh) told the benefits of using miswak whereas he didn't say anything of such about the sword and camel.

I have read the 7 conditions before something is declared sunnah in Javed Ahmed Ghamidi's Mezan.

Why are men understanding what lies in the body of sunnah and what not ? Why haven't the Quran and Ahadith provided any information on this ?
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Monday, July 10, 2006  -  6:20 PM 
Some scholars think that all the actions of the Holy Prophet (SAW) are Sunnah and they have categorized the Sunnah as follows:

1. Obligatory Sunnah
2. Non-Obligatory Sunnah

They think that the religious acts of the Holy Prophet (SAW) are obligatory to follow whereas the non-religious acts such as covering the head, wearing specific dress and perfume that the Prophet (SAW) used are not necessary to follow but a Muslim should try to follow these acts too out of the love of the Prophet (SAW).

One of such scholars is Maulana Muhammad Yusuf Ludhyanavi – this, of course, is a big name in the sub-continent.

Some other scholars, however, think that the Sunnah only refers to the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW). All other actions of him are not obligatory, at all, for any Muslim to follow (and therefore are out of the boundary of the Sunnah) because neither Allah T’ala nor the Prophet (SAW) ordered anyone to follow such kind of actions.

One of the scholars from this school of thought is Imam Hamid-ud-D’in Farahi – this too is a great name in the Islamic history.

All the scholars build their viewpoints on the basis of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Of course, in some matters, there may be a difference of opinion among them. This doesn’t mean that one of them is wrong and other right as they only say what they understand out of their own research work in the Islamic sciences. It is not obligatory for anyone to follow any particular scholar; a layman can follow the viewpoint of any of the scholars whom he thinks is better explanting a matter in the light of the Qur’an and Hadith.

In the matter of Sunnah, I personally feel that Farahi’s (RA) interpretation is better that is why I follow him, however, one has a right to differ from him.

I think it is not difficult to judge what a religious act is and what not. Five time prayers, cleaning mouth (by any mean like miswak or toothpaste), circumcision, hajj & umrah etc. are the religious acts because Allah T’ala and the Prophet (SAW) have declared these acts as the essential part of a Muslim’s life. Whereas the acts like walking on the sand, wearing a particular Arab dress or liking a specific food are non-religious acts as neither Allah T’ala nor the Prophet (SAW) declared such acts (of the Prophet (SAW)) as an essential part of a Muslim’s life.

I hope this would’ve been of help to you.

Thank you for your time.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan

Edited by: JunaidHasan on Monday, July 10, 2006 7:00 PM
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, July 11, 2006  -  4:41 AM 
The Sunnah course on this website has said that eating with right hand is sunnah.What about using your right hand for all noble matters and left hand for lowly matters ? Aren't these sunnah too ?

Sayyida `A’isha (Allah be pleased with her) related that, “The Messenger of Allah loved using the right in wearing his shoes, combing his hair, purification, and in all his matters.” [Bukhari and Muslim]


She also related that, “The Messenger of Allah’s hand (blessings and peace be upon him) was for his purification and eating, and his left for the toilet and anything lowly.” [Abu Dawud; Nawawi declared it rigorously authentic in his Majmu`]


Anas (Allah be pleased with him) said, “It is from the sunna that you enter the mosque with your right leg, and leave with your left leg. [Hakim]

Ibn Daqiq explained that this is a general recommendation from which certain particulars have been excepted, such as entering the washroom, cleaning one’s private parts, leaving the mosque, and the like, for the sunna in these is to use the left. [Sharh Umdat al-Ahkam]

The scholars deduced from the hadiths related to right and left that the general principle is:

1. To prefer the right [hand or foot] for all noble matters, such as:

Wudu

Entering the mosque

Wearing clothes

Praying to the right of the imam if the lines are even [otherwise, evening the lines is superior]

Giving salams to the right first in prayer

Turning one’s head to the right first in the adhan when saying ‘Hayya `ala al-Salah’

Brushing the right side of one’s teeth first

Starting to cut one’s hair from the right side first

Serving food or water to those on one’s right first

Sleeping on one’s right side

Shaking hands

Eating and drinking with one’s right

Giving and taking things

Brushing one’s hair.

2. To prefer the left for all lowly or less desirable matters, such as:

* Going from a more noble to a less noble place:

o Going out of the house

o Going out of the mosque

o Entering the toilet

* Cleaning one’s private parts or filth

Ref:[http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=1686&CATE=111]
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, July 12, 2006  -  12:53 PM 
Dear Brother Junaid Hasan

Assalam Alikum

You wrote:-I’m so sorry if I’ve hurt your feelings in any way. Please forgive me. I hope we two brothers are not arguing but discussing positively in order to correctly understand Allah’s D’in.

Reply:-No brother you never hurt me.I 2nd to you what you have said afterward.


You wrote:-Also, please positively read my viewpoints. I hope we’d develop a consensus soon.

Reply:- Insha Allah
Point 1

You wrote:-Brother, you haven’t answered my questions regarding this. Great, Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) has ignored fifteen authentic ahadith, including those of Sahi Bukhari, in the matter of rafa-yadain.

Reply:-Prophet (pbuh) used to do rafa-yadain but latter due to the some reason He stops doing it. Afterward He used to pray without raga-yadain. This might be the reason that he did not select it.

You wrote:-Note that any directive of the Qur’an cannot be ignored as the Qur’an is the basic source of D’in and any diversion from it is considered to be a diversion from the D’in. However, such strictness is not there in the matter of hadith as one may prefer one hadith over another and even discard a hadith if it appears to contradict the Qur’an and Sunnah or any other established hadith.

Reply:-Due to the rafa-yadain not taken by Imam(RA), you can not say that(such stickness is not there in the hadith).If we find two or more than two way of doing things from the action or sayings of our Prophet(pbuh),so we have more choises only.By adopting one way it won’t be considered that we are rejecting (Nauzobillah others).If we have a single order from of a obligatory nature so the order will be equally important to any direct order of Quran and every one bound to follow it.

Quote:-This clearly shows that in spite of the great importance of hadith in the D’in, it is not the basic source that is why it can be deviated from (not in all but) in certain situations, for example, if it contains broken chain of narrators or has hidden defects or contradicts another established hadith or is against the Qur’an etc.

Reply:-The reason for not adopting the rafa-yadain I ready told you according to my study.If we have a single order from of a obligatary nature so the order will be equally important to any direct order of Quran and every one bound to follow it.If you still think that ahadith are not the basic source so what I would say that it blindly following this team.I have said earlier also that this team is creating doubts for ahadith.The result are coming very fast.

Point 2

You wrote:- Why is my way a misleading one? Only because it doesn’t match yours? Please don’t be judgmental.

Reply:-Yours un-nesaccary doubts on them,yous hesitation to accept the truth if a hadith quoted to you,Your not accepting ahadith as a basic sorce etc.tec.

You wrote:- I started doing rafa-yadain in my prayers – in a way that in some prayers I do it and in others, leave it. By doing so, I follow the uswa-e-hasana of the Prophet (SAW) that I have come to know through ahadith. Isn’t it a benefit of the hadith in my life?

Reply:-Why not you ask some one about yours this action.To the best of my knowledge,a person must stick to any Madahb he is following.This is not good thing to do to follow some part of this and some other Madhab.


You wrote:-Of course, there are obligatory or fard things in our D’in. A sunnah can also be fard like five time prayers in a day.

Reply:-Yes I follow Hanafi Madhab,To my undersatnding like in the case of daily salat 2+4+4+3+4 are fard .This what the direct order of Allah for every muslim.On top of that Prophet(pbuh) also used to pray additional prayer which along with these fard which is not due to the order of Allah.So these prayers were adopted Prophet(pbuh) by his own and called his Sunnah.Any thing could be obligatory if Prophet said that it obligatory and we don’t have to look it in Quran.

Any way we don’t have any dispute here.

Point 3

Quote:-No one is redefining the Religion, please don’t be judgmental; only present your criticism in a healthy way so that we may correct ourselves if we are wrong somewhere.

Reply:-That’s what I am doing here.I can not follow blindly to any one even the scholars to whom I have trust.

But I really appreciate the peoples of this website for they have given me all the opportunity to refute them.They surely have the Big Heart.Thats Include Brother Tariq Hashmi and Brother Ibrahim.I salute them for that.

I wrote, The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'an
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.”

You wrote:-It is true that within these two the whole Islam is preserved. It doesn’t mean that the Hadith is excluded from the D’in. What it means is that the basic directives are in the Qur’an and the basic practices are in the Sunnah. Once again I’d mention here that the Hadith is the “explanation of the Qur’an and Sunnah” which compliments both of these two (and doesn’t say anything in addition to them) that is why it is not included in the basic sources.

Reply:-Don’t try to defend a clear statement brother,This is what they are teching here.

Quote of Brother Tariq:- Without the hadith nothing falls short in my religion.

I am unable to understand why you are defending them.Yours explanation for defending to their statements have no wieght.Its only showing that how blindly you are following them.

You are keep asking me that I am judgmental,I only judge things what you write here.What I am feeling from your reply I am telling you.If any thing wronly judge by me,you always can clear it.It is good to be gudgemental rather than blindly following others.

Up there no will company you,You will be alone to answer of yours every deeds.If you will be caught for blindly following some one,so you will have double regret there.

Point 4

I wrote, “They failed to realized that so many others things which are obligatory for Muslims we find in the sayings of Prophet(pbuh).Have a look on the following verse.

Today the good things have been permitted to you. (5:5)

Here, the “good things” are not explained.”

You wrote:-What a good example. I think the consensus has already been developed here. This is exactly what we say.

Again in the above example, the Qur’an is the source and hadith is its explanation.

Reply:- Read the Point 3,you will know that we are still quite far from the consensus pray to Allah for a early consensus.

Point No. 5

You wrote:-How can you say that it only applies to one particular act of the Prophet (SAW)? What was that “particular thing” about that particular act which lead it out of the Sunan? It was that the very act wasn’t a religious act. Therefore, we can surely understand from this hadith (if it’s authentic) that only the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) were Sunan.

Reply:-I think you have rightly said the reason of this acts of Prophet(pbuh) was not taken as Sunnah.But you thought that on the basis of your aqil wearing white cloth is also is not the religious act.Remember the hadith I showed you on wearing the white cloth.Who are we are to decide whats acts are religious and what not.Going into the washroom with left feet first also a religious act as prophet(pbuh) used to do.

You wrote:-As I said earlier, Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) has ignored all the ahadith of Sahi Bukhari that come in the favour of rafa-yadain. Refute this claim of mine if you’re truthful in your saying.

Reply:-See Point No.1 for that.

Point No. 6:

I wrote, “Give me the names of those scholars other then this website’s scholars have given the names of eight well known schalors,who explained the understanding of Sunnah as I have mentioned here.”

You wrote:-Please also provide the references of the books or talks of the scholars that you have mentioned to have the view that all of the acts of the Prophet (SAW) are sunan. Here is my list:

1. Hadrat Ayesha Saddiqa (RA) (Ref: Hadith already quoted above.)
2. Maulana Syed Abu-al-A’la Maududi (Ikhtalaf-e-Ummat aur Sirat-e-Mustaqeem, Maulana Muhammad Yusuf Ludhayanvi, Page 170)
Please remove this name from your list.
3. Javed Ahmad Ghamidi (Ref: Asol-o-Mubadi, Page:63)
4. Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman (Ref: Geo: Alif, D’in mai Hadith ka Muqam)
5. Prof. Qalb Bashir Khawar (Lectures: UMT 2003-05, Phone:03004733774)

Reply:-If you don’t like Molana Maududi or any one else don’t like him why so I should removed his nam.He was the one of the leading schalor of the world of his time.Any way if you like Molana Yusuf Ludhayanvi,read his work regarding Sunnah I am sure that there will be no diffrece his understaning and Molana Maudoodi understanding as far as Sunnah is concerned.

One name can only be accepted that of Mufti Muneeb-ur-Reman.Javed Ahmad Ghamidi are the schalor of the web site so I won’t count it.The Prof.Bashir ,I don’t think he is a Scholar or may be not well known,Never heard of him.

See book of Molana Maudoodi:-Sunnat Ki Aaeni Haiseyat.Page 30 to 37

Dr.Farhat Hashmi (Listen the first part of it)

http://is.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=2023&TitleName=Farhat_Hashmi(Listen

Yusuf Estes(Listen to-Just a Sunnah)

http://is.aswatalislam.net/DisplayFilesP.aspx?TitleID=2112&TitleName=Yusuf_Estes

Molana Taqi Usmani sahib work I already presented here.

For Hakim-ul-Ummat I have read his book on that but now not remember that name.I will try to findout for you.

Dr.Inees,Dr.Israr and Dr.Naik I Had listen to them in TV or viedio.

Point No. 7

hadith, “Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)”

Earlier I said, ““Learning the honesty” is not mentioned in the hadith. What is mentioned is “strengthening”.” Because you used the words: “How can we learn:Honesty…”

Reply:-Brother see carefully once again (and also learnt it from the Sunna).
Have you seen now its mentioned in the hadith.

I don’t know why you avioding it again and again.Quran is the book surely from that we learn the honesty.The other thing are the sayings of Prophet(pbuh)(Which only be founded in ahadith) and specially with regards to the honesty there are many sayings and actions of Prophet which emphasis on the honesty a lot.It is a very vast subject.

Prophet(pbuh) (saying that we also learnt it from Sunna) in this hadith.If we wish to learned it so for that we have refer to ahadith beside Quran.So ahadith are Sunna in the eye of our Prophet(pbuh).If you still want to give prefreness to this course which all are based on their own words(only mentioned a single hadith only) as far as the understanding of Sunnah is concerned.You must realize that what actually you are doing.I can not help you more than that brother.

Point No. 8

I wrote, “.The truth is what Prophet brought we can more can find in sayings of Prophet(pbuh) (Ahadith).Prophet calling all of these his Sunna.”

You wrote:-Astaghfir-ullah! Please, my dear Brother, I beg you not to say this now. This is purely your own interpretation and understanding of the above hadith.

Reply:-Please show me where I am wrong on this hadith.

Hadith:-So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)

You wrote:-Where has he called the Hadith the Sunnah in this hadith?

Reply:-You did not ponder into it, othervise you can easily find it.

( person who obeys me and follows what I have brought).That what the Prophet(pbuh) said in that hadith.

What Prophet(pbuh) have brought,the answer is Quran and Sunnah.Now we have Quran with us in the book form we can read it and then obey and follow it.
Prophet also talking about Sunnah for that.How can we obey and follow the Sunnah as prophet(pbuh) as mentioned in this hadith.

Is there any thing other than ahadith which can be followed and obeyed?how can we obey and follow Sunnah if not to obey and follow the ahadith.(The authanic one).

You wrote:- Where has he called the Hadith the Sunnah in this hadith?

Did you got it .If you think I am still presenting the hadith in discussion wrongly then please tell me where I am wring.


Point No. 9

Hadith:-If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna. I am but a distributor, and Allah is the Giver.

Brother if the word Sunna mentioned in this hadith is not stand for the record of sayings and actions of Prophet(pbuh)(Ahadith),then please you tell me for what the word Sunna is stand for in this hadith.

Point No. 10

Hadith:- Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

Why you removed the contents in the brakets.Have you seen the orignal hadith in Sahih Bukhari?

The person who used to give verdicts,is always a person who must have very good knowledge of Quran and Ahaith.That what he teaches to others as well.From where else one can get religious wisdom if not from Quran and Ahadith.


Point No. 11:

I wrote:- “As I said earlier any does not suit you,you won’t accept it.Brother Abullah(RA)is a sahabi,I think you still don’t understand what is a Sahabi stand for.Do your investigation first then reject the saying os Sahabi.

You wrote:-Now what should I say? You even don’t know that ahadith are not directly narrated by the esteemed companions of the Prophet (SAW) but there is a long chain of narrators in between until they reach a particular muhaddis. If a hadith had any shortcoming, muhaddiseen used to take it as the viewpoint of the last narrator. I say: “the last narrator” not the companion from whose authority the hadith was coming.

In any case, fulfilling a vow on mother’s behalf is an act.

Reply:-According to your reserch on this perticuler hadith in discussion,if you have find any short coming then please share with also.But if you haven’t done any reserch then you have no right to say this what you have said above and in earlier post regarding this hadith.This only showing your unwillingness to accept the truth.Not to forget that this hadith is from Sahih Bukhari.

Hadith:-Narrated Sa'id bin 'Ubada Al-Ansari: that he consulted the Prophet about a vow that had been made by his mother who died without fulfilling it. The Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna (i.e. the Prophet's tradition). (Sahih Bukhari Book #78, Hadith #689)

The truth is that the Sa'id bin 'Ubada(RA) siad that (The verdict became Sunna).
Now point here to ponder into it is that, according to a Shabi, a verdict from the Prophet(pbuh) is a Sunnah.This team actually challenging the understanding of a Sahabi as far as Sunnah is concerned.

If this is not the reality then only thing what I can say that the writer of this course is not capable to write such a course.He don’t have enough knowledge which required for that.

On the basis of above ,I will request the writer to acknowledge this in this forum and repent from it.So others who are misguided from this course,can also repent too as well.


Point No. 12

7th hadith: I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]

5th and 6th ahadith show that it was not an order but either a way out (of forgetting) or a casual permission respectively.

You wrote-However, in the 7th hadith, it seems as if it is an order. I do not know how authentic this hadith is, what were the circumstances and who were the addresses .

Reply:-You never said some thing like that when ever you quoted the ahadith, why brother like that,do you thinck it is fair to do like that.That’s why I have said that if any thing goes according to your thought you will accept it and if it goes agaisnt you will come up with so many things on it.

You wrote:-Please look into the following hadith as well:

“I’m a human being after all, when I order you something about your D’in, take it, and when I tell you something out of my own opinion, my status is not more than this that I am a human being… I told you something out of guess. Do not accuse me of such things which are based on guess and personal opinion. Though when I say something from Allah then take it because I will never ascribe falsehood to Allah… You know your worldly deeds better.”

(Muslim, 2263, 2361, 3262)

Reply:- Why you don’t have any such(I do not know how authentic this hadith is, what were the circumstances and who were the addresses .) problem with this hadith?


You write:-Therefore the Prophet (SAW) ordered us to take from him what was religious. Because of this, we differ in what is sunnah and what not.

Reply:-How many ahadith I have quoted here which are not religious?why you quoting this.What for? We are not discussing this issue right now.


Thank you.


Sincerely,

Sohail Usmani
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Wednesday, July 12, 2006  -  10:16 PM 
Dear Brother Usmani:

Wa’alaikumassalam.

Point No. 1: (Please note that these point numbers are not in harmony with the previous postings but are only presented in each posting to differentiate the different points in discussion.)

Please stop personal attacks. This really is not acceptable. I respect your opinion about the Sunnah because many scholars have had the same opinion but a number of scholars have differed too and are exactly of the view that I have presented. I have a right to hold my Religious viewpoints and I have sound reasons for them. I wonder why you want everyone to follow and believe your viewpoint. For God sake, leave this attitude that has grown nothing but hatred among Ummah.

Imam Hamid-ud-Din Farahi and Maulana Amin Ehsan Islahi have differentiated between Hadith and Sunnah.

Dr. Israr Ahmad, that you mentioned above in your list, stated that a Bukhari Sharif’s Hadith may be questioned. (Aaj TV, Program: Aaj Islam, Islami Rayasat)

What is questioned, we all know that, it cannot be the basic source of the D’in. I am not trying to say here that, on the basis of this point, all the Ahadith of Sahi Bukhari and Muslim etc. are fruitless. No doubt, they have a great importance and all the authentic ones are necessary to follow, however, they are purely the explanation of the Qur’an and Sunnah and do not add to the contents of these two basic sources.

How can something be a basic source whose authenticity may be questioned? Whether it is Hadith or Torah or Injil, we have to match all of these sources with the Qur’an before accepting anything from them because Allah T’ala has declared the Qur’an as a Furqan – something that differentiates between right and wrong. Great Imam Bukhari (RA) and Imam Muslim (RA), in addition to the other muhaddaseen, have already collected the Ahadith in their books after matching them with the Qur’an. That is why most of the Ahadith of Bukhari and Muslim are authentic, however, any scholar may scholastically criticize a Hadith of these two exalted books.

Point No. 2:

You wrote, “Prophet (pbuh) used to do rafa-yadain but latter due to the some reason He stops doing it. Afterward He used to pray without raga-yadain. This might be the reason that he did not select it.”

I have already presented the basic reason why Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) did not adopt rafa-yadain. You still have not answered my basic question: Didn’t Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) ignore all the authentic Ahadith of Sahi Bukhari in the matter of rafa-yadain and give more importance to the Hadith of Hadrat Ibn-e-Masood (RA)? Whatsoever the reason may be, say yes or no.

Point No. 3:

You wrote, “Due to the rafa-yadain not taken by Imam(RA), you can not say that(such stickness is not there in the Hadith).If we find two or more than two way of doing things from the action or sayings of our Prophet(pbuh),so we have more choises only.By adopting one way it won’t be considered that we are rejecting (Nauzobillah others). If we have a single order from of a obligatory nature so the order will be equally important to any direct order of Quran and every one bound to follow it.”

Rafa-yadain is rejected in Hanafi school of thought. You cannot challenge such a great reality of time.

The orders of obligatory nature are all presented in the Qur’an and Sunnah. Hadith only explains those orders. If a Hadith is authentic, yes it should be considered equal to the Quranic directive in everyday practice of a Muslim because Allah T’ala used to speak through the tongue of the Prophet (SAW) in the Religious matters.

Point No. 4:

You wrote, “If you still think that Ahadith are not the basic source so what I would say that it blindly following this team.I have said earlier also that this team is creating doubts for Ahadith.The result are coming very fast.”

I wonder what you mean by “blind following”? I have not even blindly followed Allah T’ala, how would I do such a thing in the case of this team? I have been presenting a number of reasons why I differentiate between Hadith and Sunnah and you have put it all in a dustbin saying that I am a blind follower. Well, if this is your opinion about me, I do respect it but you are surely held responsible for saying this in Allah’s court.

What you are ascribing purely to this team, a number of scholars have had the very same opinion, some of the names I have already mentioned above.

Point No. 5:

You referred to, “I wrote, The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'an
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the above statement, I already explained why.

You also referred to, “Quote of Brother Tariq:- Without the Hadith nothing falls short in my religion.”

I already have criticized Brother Hashmi for such a sentence in the following words:

“But, at the same time, I think one should completely avoid such sentences (as they seem to convey dual meaning) or they should be explained thoroughly: "Without the Hadith nothing falls short in my religion."

Point No. 6:

You wrote, “Why not you ask some one about yours this action.”

I have understood the authentic Ahadith in this regard and am convinced that rafa-yadain is from the uswa-e-hasana of the Holy Prophet (SAW). I am not ready to leave it, at the moment (until someone scholastically convinces me otherwise), even if Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) rejects it a million times because I am not answerable for following the verdicts of any Imam but the Qur’an and Hadith.

You further wrote, “To the best of my knowledge,a person must stick to any Madahb he is following.This is not good thing to do to follow some part of this and some other Madhab.”

This is purely the definition of “blind following” (what you have been ascribing to me). One school of thought cannot be correct in understanding all parts of the D’in. In some matters, for instance, Imam Abu Hanifa (RA) would be more close to the Quran and Hadith whereas in some others Imam Malik (RA). D’in belongs to Allah T’ala. These scholars only present their own interpretation of Allah’s Din; it is not obligatory for any Muslim to follow any one of these scholars in all aspects of the D’in.

Abn Al-Barr and Ibn Taymiya (RA) say:

“When a Hadith of the Prophet (SAW) is proved true and correct then there is no place left for the sayings of others. It is necessary to act according to the Hadith of the Prophet (SAW). Followers of Madahib must not give preference to the words of their Imams, Instead Hadith should be given priority. The Quranic text and Ahadith are above all. Carnal and rational suppositions are insignificant and baseless when brought against the Quran and Hadith. Bigots try to defend their religious leaders with flimsy arguments. For example, they say, ‘there must be some very strong arguments, that is why their Imam left this Hadith and did not act according to it.’ Or ‘he might have discovered fault, and for this reason he left this Hadith.’ These arguments cannot be called arguments at all. Bigots talk such absurdities and blind followers play yes men.”

(Should A Muslim Follow A Particular Madhab, Sheikh Muhammad Sultan Al-Masoomi, P. 37)

Point No. 7:

You wrote, “So these prayers were adopted Prophet(pbuh) by his own and called his Sunnah.”

Imam Malik, Imam Shafa’e and Imam Ahmad-bin-Hambal (RA) call these additional prayers of the Prophet (SAW) “nawafil” or “supererogatory acts”.

Point No. 8:

You wrote, “I can not follow blindly to any one even the scholars to whom I have trust.”

But with due respect, you mentioned, “To the best of my knowledge,a person must stick to any Madahb he is following.” and “Yes I follow Hanafi Madhab…”

Point No. 9:

You wrote, “Read the Point 3,you will know that we are still quite far from the consensus pray to Allah for a early consensus.”

Consensus is not necessary. I respect your viewpoints and have no objection whatsoever you believe. I am only presenting the reasons in favour of my viewpoint because, time and again, you have been calling it “wrong”.

Point No. 10:

You wrote, “See Point No.1 for that.”

My claim still stands true as a historical fact. It is not refuted by your Point No. 1.

Point No. 11:

You wrote, “If you don’t like Molana Maududi or any one else don’t like him why so I should removed his nam.He was the one of the leading schalor of the world of his time.Any way if you like Molana Yusuf Ludhayanvi,read his work regarding Sunnah I am sure that there will be no diffrece his understaning and Molana Maudoodi understanding as far as Sunnah is concerned.”

Oh my goodness! When did I say that I do not like Maulana Maududi (RA)? I mentioned his name in my list because he differentiates between the Hadith and Sunnah and, therefore, belongs to the school of thought that I follow in this regard.

Maulana Yusuf Ludhayanvi (RA) is of the view that you hold. And he has strongly criticized Maulana Maududi (RA) in his book: Ikhtalaf-e-Ummat Aur Sirat-e-Mustaqeem. Please see it.

You further wrote, “One name can only be accepted that of Mufti Muneeb-ur-Reman.Javed Ahmad Ghamidi are the schalor of the web site so I won’t count it.The Prof.Bashir ,I don’t think he is a Scholar or may be not well known,Never heard of him.”

Respected: Javed Ahmad Ghamidi is wisdom personified. All his viewpoints are strongly intact with the Qur’an and Hadith.
You do not know Prof. Khawar Butt, it does not mean that his research in the D’in cannot be accepted. I present my list once again:

1. Hadrat-e-Ayesha (RA)
2. Imam Hamid-ud-Din Farahi (RA)
3. Maulana Amin Ehsan Islahi (RA)
4. Maulana Maududi (RA)
5. Javed Ahmad Ghamidi
6. Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman
7. Prof. Khawar Butt

These are the scholars that I individually know; there would be a number of others with the same viewpoint.

Point No. 12:

You further wrote, “So Ahadith are Sunna in the eye of our Prophet(pbuh).”

This is not acceptable now! Do not ascribe things to the Prophet (SAW) which he has not believed in.

Here is the Hadith:

“Narrated Hudhaifa: Allah's Apostle said to us, "Honesty descended from the Heavens and settled in the roots of the hearts of men (faithful believers), and then the Quran was revealed and the people read the Quran, (and learnt it from it) and also learnt it from the Sunna." Both Quran and Sunna strengthened their (the faithful believers') honesty. (See Hadith No. 208) (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #381)”

First, I removed the brackets as the text in the brackets is not originally from the author but the one who interprets a Hadith.

Even if I agree with your interpretation of the above Hadith i.e., “Learning the honesty” is mentioned there, it does not nullify any of my claims. Tell me why honesty cannot be learnt from the Sunnah? Each sunnah is a masterpiece of honesty towards Allah, by seeing and adopting it, one should learn the true meaning of honesty.

For example, you can learn driving by watching a driver as well as practically doing how he does. I mean, why do you believe that things cannot be learnt by the practical matters?

Now, look at the very Hadith as it is mentioned in the Sahi Bukhari:

“Ali-bin-Abdullah narrated to me, to whom Sufyaan narrated that he asked from Eimash then he narrated from Zaid-bin-Wahb that he listened from Huzaifa (RA) that the Holy Prophet (SAW) said that “al-amanah” descended from the heaven upon the roots of some people’s hearts and when the Holy Quran revealed, they read the Holy Quran and acquired the knowledge of the Sunnah.” (Para No. 29, Kitab-al-E’itisam, Hadith No. 2)

I think there is much difference the way you quoted this Hadith and the way it is presented in the Sahi Bukhari. I am very sad to see this difference.

Point No. 13:

You wrote, “how can we obey and follow Sunnah if not to obey and follow the Ahadith.”

You do not even know our basic point regarding the Sunnah. We can learn, obey and follow all the Sunan (from the circumcision to the offering of Hajj) through the practical consensus and continuity of the Ummah. However, once again I would mention that it does not mean that the Hadith has no importance.

Earlier you quoted this Hadith under the same point, “So this is the example of that person who obeys me and follows what I have brought (the Quran and the Sunna), and the example of the one who disobeys me and disbelieves the truth I have brought." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #387)”

First, please note that the Prophet (SAW) did not bring Sunnah. Sunan-e-Ibrahimi were already there that the Prophet (SAW) revived in their true sense.

Second, I still say that the word “Hadith” or “the sayings of the Holy Prophet (SAW)” that you are referring to is not mentioned in the above narrative. It is your own interpretation. Do not ascribe your own interpretation to the Prophet (SAW); this surely is a great sin.

Point No. 14:

You wrote, “Hadith:-If Allah wants to do a favor to somebody, He bestows on him, the gift of understanding the Quran and Sunna. I am but a distributor, and Allah is the Giver.

Brother if the word Sunna mentioned in this Hadith is not stand for the record of sayings and actions of Prophet(pbuh)(Ahadith),then please you tell me for what the word Sunna is stand for in this Hadith.”

To the best of my understanding, it is there to depict the religious acts of the Holy Prophet (SAW). The word Sunnah in Arabic is not used for the written record. How many times do we have to repeat this? If you still want to disagree, refute our claim and prove that the word Sunnah is used for the written material in Arabic.

Point No. 15:

You mentioned, “Hadith:- Narrated 'Abdullah: Allah's Apostle said, "Do not wish to be like anybody except in two cases: The case of a man whom Allah has given wealth and he spends it in the right way, and that of a man whom Allah has given religious wisdom and he gives his verdicts according to it and teaches it." (Sahih Bukhari Book #92, Hadith #419)

Why you removed the contents in the brakets.Have you seen the orignal Hadith in Sahih Bukhari?

The person who used to give verdicts,is always a person who must have very good knowledge of Quran and Ahaith.That what he teaches to others as well.From where else one can get religious wisdom if not from Quran and Ahadith.”

Remember, the text in the brackets is not the part of the original text but an interpretation of it.

Imam Shafa’e (RA) is of the view that “hikma” refers to the Ahadith. However not all the scholars believe in it as they think that “hikma” itself is present in the Qur’an.

Even if I agree that the religious wisdom refers to Ahadith, as you say, it neither tells that the Ahadith are the Sunnah or basic source of the D’in. I wonder why you are wriggling the meaning of Ahadith to turn them in your favour.

Point No. 16:

You wrote, “According to your reserch on this perticuler Hadith in discussion,if you have find any short coming then please share with also.But if you haven’t done any reserch then you have no right to say this what you have said above and in earlier post regarding this Hadith.This only showing your unwillingness to accept the truth.Not to forget that this Hadith is from Sahih Bukhari.”

Then you quoted a Hadith, “Narrated Sa'id bin 'Ubada Al-Ansari: that he consulted the Prophet about a vow that had been made by his mother who died without fulfilling it. The Prophet gave his verdict that he should fulfill it on her behalf. The verdict became Sunna (i.e. the Prophet's tradition). (Sahih Bukhari Book #78, Hadith #689)”

I am very sorry to say that the 78th book of Sahi Bukhari is “Kitab-al-Adab” and I could not find the above Hadith in whole of Kitab-al-Adab. Please give me the correct reference.

Point No. 17:

You wrote, “You never said some thing like that when ever you quoted the Ahadith, why brother like that,do you thinck it is fair to do like that.That’s why I have said that if any thing goes according to your thought you will accept it and if it goes agaisnt you will come up with so many things on it.”

I have surely said something like that when I quoted a Hadith in my favour. Look at this:

I wrote, “Therefore, we can surely understand from this Hadith (if it’s authentic) that only the religious acts of the Prophet (SAW) were Sunan.”

I used the words “if it’s authentic” even when the above Hadith was clearly favouring my point.

Point No. 18:

You quoted a Hadith, “I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]”

Then you wrote, “You never said some thing like that when ever you quoted the Ahadith, why brother like that,do you thinck it is fair to do like that.That’s why I have said that if any thing goes according to your thought you will accept it and if it goes agaisnt you will come up with so many things on it.”

I wrote in regard to the above Hadith, “However, in the 7th Hadith, it seems as if it is an order. I do not know how authentic this Hadith is, what were the circumstances and who were the addresses.”

I still stand firm on my words. I said so because it is a historical fact that the sayings of the Holy Prophet (SAW) were largely collected and compiled long after the death of the Holy Prophet (SAW). I wonder if the Prophet (SAW) ordered so, why his sayings were not recorded in his lifetime as the Holy Qur’an was recorded?

Secondly, now I would doubt each and every Hadith that you would quote as I have found that a Hadith that you presented from Hadrat Huzaifa (RA), its words were quite different from the one present in Sahi Bukhari. And the other Hadith that you referred to “Kitab-al-Adab”, it is not there in it. If I am wrong, please correct me.

Point No. 19:

I quoted this Hadith in one of my postings, “I’m a human being after all, when I order you something about your D’in, take it, and when I tell you something out of my own opinion, my status is not more than this that I am a human being… I told you something out of guess. Do not accuse me of such things which are based on guess and personal opinion. Though when I say something from Allah then take it because I will never ascribe falsehood to Allah… You know your worldly deeds better.” (Muslim, 2263, 2361, 3262)

You wrote in regard to the above Hadith, “Why you don’t have any such(I do not know how authentic this Hadith is, what were the circumstances and who were the addresses .) problem with this Hadith?”

That is purely because I am sure about the state of the above Hadith. In spite of it being in Sahi Muslim, my trustworthy teacher, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, researched over it and presented it in his book: Asul-o-Mubadi. I have heard it a several times that this hadith is also present in Sahi Bukhari.
You further wrote, “How many Ahadith I have quoted here which are not religious?why you quoting this.What for? We are not discussing this issue right now.”

When did I say that you quoted unreligious Ahadith? I have quoted the above Hadith to tell you that the Holy Prophet (SAW) emphasized on and held himself responsible for the Religious orders, nothing more. You hold the viewpoint that all the actions of the Prophet (SAW) are Sunan and every Muslim should try to follow them out of love of the Prophet (SAW). The Holy Prophet (SAW), however, is only emphasizing to take the Religious guidance from him in the above narrative.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

Junaid Hassan

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