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Asim2

PAKISTAN
Topic initiated on Wednesday, August 10, 2005  -  5:03 PM Reply with quote
1 issue at a time (refuting contradiction claims)


With The Name of ALLAH, The Infinitely Merciful, The Ever Merciful

Moderators, atleast warn us before deleting some irrelevant(to that forum) posts so swiftly. So that we can have a backup of our posts.

I am very busy these days and can't give much time to these forums for now, but since no body started refuting these claims, I just give a hint on how to refute these claims. So you also refute these baseless claims .

Mr. Bhavittre, discuss 1 issue at a time.

Your first claim (completely copied from a web site, each and every word, in fact your complete post is copied from a web site)

quote:

1. EMBRYONIC SEX DETERMINATION

One of the references on human reproduction, which Muslims often quote from the Quran, is verse 53:45-46. This is interpreted as a reference to the determination of sex at the fertilization stage itself. However, elsewhere, the Quran says that the sex of a developing embryo is determined well after the leech-like clot stage!

(53:45-46)
"That He did create the pairs - male and female from a sperm-drop* (nutfah) when lodged (in its place)"

(75:38-39)
"Was he not a drop of sperm emitted (in lowly form)? Then did he become a leech-like clot; then did (Allah) make and fashion (him) in due proportion. And of him He made the sexes, male and female" *

* Note the conspicuous absence of ovum required for fertilization.

** This view is further supported by this Hadith: "When 42 nights have passed over the drop (nutfah), Allah sends an Angel to it, who shapes it and make its ears, eyes, skin, flesh and bones. Then he says, "O Lord, is it male or female?" and your Lord decides what He wishes" (Hadith, Muslim, Book 33, No. 6392)



(53:45-46 translation analysis.

Some reasons to use you head instead of believing everything others tell you.

1. First of all there are obvious alterations in your copy/paste web site’s translation “when lodged (in its place)” is not the meaning of the word. The actual meaning is something like emitted/ejaculated/shed etc…

2. Nutfah doesn’t mean sperm-drop.

75:37 proves this fact.

75:37 “Was he not a Nutfah (drop , drops ) of maniy (semen, sexual discharges) emitted “.
Now if nutfah meant sperm-drop then maniy (semen) would not have been used.)

Now lets have a better translation with atleast no intentional mistakes InshaALLAH !

53:45-46 “And that HE Creates both of a pair, the male and the female from a nutfah(drop/collection of drops)when it is emitted ”

75: 37-39
Was he(/she) not a nutfah (drop/collection of drops) of maniy (semen/sexual discharges) emitted.
Then he(/she) was an alaqa (sticky clot/ a leech like thing/ something which clings)
And HE Created and perfectly shaped.
Then HE made of it both of a pair (/both sexes), male and female.

I haven’t verified the authenticity of the Hadith you have quoted but anyway again you are bringing the Nutfah issue which has been solved.

Sex determination is not discussed. It is simply stated that both the sexes are Created by ALLAH and in their creation these are some forms. These aren’t sex determination Ayaat and are not interpreted as sex determination Ayaat. They simply state the fact that ALLAH Creates both of a pair the male and the female from the Nutfah. The second one gives more details.

A person feels the great Blessings of ALLAH Who created him. What micro phases man has passed through ! . Man should thank ALLAH Almighty for Creating him and giving him countless Blessings yet in this world of trial.

1 issue at a time !

Edited by: asim2 on Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:04 PM
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 11, 2005  -  3:36 PM Reply with quote
you said…….. your first claim (completely copied from a web site, each and every word, in fact your complete post is copied from a web site)

yes I have copied stated alredy in the posts.

You said……..So Nutfah could be a collection of male and female sexual discharges.

please donot beat about the bushes. consult some doc about nature of the discharges.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 11, 2005  -  3:58 PM Reply with quote
Nutfah is drop or collection of drops and that drop can be of any kind

Stay focused on the topic and bring a logical reply and you like consulting doctors so much or have some problem then do consult a doctor soon !

Edited by: asim2 on Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:30 PM
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 11, 2005  -  4:21 PM Reply with quote
Bhavittre you copy/pasted the following claims :
quote:

2. WIDTH OF THE GARDEN

There is a clear discrepancy with reference to the width of the Paradise or Garden in the Quran. Verse 3:133 says that it is all the heavens (Samawath: plural) and the earth combined. Verse 57:21 says that the width is the (lower?) heaven (Sama: singular) and the earth combined.

3:133)
".... a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and the earth, prepared for the righteous,

(57:21)
".... a Garden (of Bliss), the width whereof is as the width of the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who believe in Allah .... "



Lets have a Muslim translation

57:21 Saabiqu (try to go ahead of one another/race with one another) for the Forgiveness of your Rabb (Lord, Creator, Cherisher, Sustainer, Protector, Controller……) and a Garden the width of which is like the width of the heaven and the earth, prepared for those who have iman (real belief) in ALLAH and HIS Messengers That is the Bounty of ALLAH which HE gives to whomsoever HE Wills. And ALLAH is the Lord of Immense Bounty.

See that this is the Jannah (here translated as Garden for now, as I haven’t researched the term) is prepared for those who have iman (real belief) in ALLAH and HIS Messengers. (i.e. this is a necessary requirement stated here for this Garden )

3:133-136 And sari’u (rush/hasten/run/dash/be quick) towards Forgiveness from your Rabb (Lord, Creator, Cherisher, Sustainer, Protector, Controller….) and a Garden as wide as the heavens and the earth, prepared for the muttaqin* (who guard/protect/save themselves) who spend in prosperity and adversity, and are in control of anger, and forgiving to people. And ALLAH loves The Muhsinin** (the excellent/righteous/good). And those who if they do a fahisha (vile deed/grave sin/adultery) or do wrong to themselves, remember ALLAH and ask for forgiveness for their sins-----and who can forgive sins except ALLAH-----and do not persist in what they did and they know. Such people, their reward is forgiveness from their Rabb and gardens with rivers flowing under them, abiding for ever therein. And excellent is the reward of the practicing ones

So this is a necessary requirement for this Garden

The 2 Gardens are different and are meant for different types of people . One is as wide as the “heaven and the earth” and the other is as wide as the “heavens and the earth”. So this is bigger and the necessary requirements are also greater.

The first one is not telling about the first heaven, it just mentions a single heaven, what is the actual scope of a heaven is not known.
The second one is not talking about all the heavens but multiple heavens and again the scope and exact concept is not known.

Only ALLAH Knows the Real Truth

*Muttaqin
**Muhsinin
InshaALLAH more indepth meaning or resource for these 2 words will be mentioned soon.

Edited by: asim2 on Thursday, August 11, 2005 4:39 PM
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, August 20, 2005  -  8:21 PM Reply with quote
Asim2

you said……..Stay focused on the topic and bring a logical reply and you like consulting doctors so much or have some problem then do consult a doctor soon!

what a nonsense reply is…..
i have asked you to consult the doc to support your argument and you are asking me the same. clear it first by bringing the concerrd statement then go ahead… if you are unanswerable donot bounce back the things to me.

You said….Bhavittre you copy/pasted the following claims :

Do not be disonest. You have yourelf said to clear the matter one by one. clear the first of sperm then go ahead.

if nutfa means every kind of drop, how will you translate the following into Arabic

this medicine is used in the form of drops for the eye diseases.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, August 22, 2005  -  7:03 PM Reply with quote
English to Arabic is not what is being discussed, it is Arabic to English (now don't quote this...)

And what you and your friends at those web sites claim to bring are not contradictions in the Qur'an , even if they claim to bring contradictions they can still not call them contradictions in the Qur'an .

Firstly most of those contradiction claims are baseless, secondly even if there is some contradiction then it is in the translation (i.e. human effort to understand the Qur'an, OR orientalists' attempt to manipulate the translation) and not in the original Arabic Qur'an. So none of these are contradictions in the Qur'an, and no one can call them contradictions in the Qur'an, you can call them "possible errors in the translations either deliberate , or due to preconcieved bias, or due to honest mistake, or due to lack of proper understanding of the roots etc... "

So what those web sites try to bring is actually "Contradiction claims in manipulated translations and NOT CONTRADICTIONS IN THE QUR'AN " .

The Qur'an is not like any other religious book, it is the only book of which the original form in the original language is still safe and will be safe for ever."

So you can't bring translations when the original version is safe and sound.

If you really want to find the truth so bad , then you try to understand Qur'anic Arabic language

If any body wants to bring a contradiction claim, then quote the Arabic Ayaat and explain in depth in Arabic why you wrongly think there is a contradiction.

So translation is just to let those who don't know Arabic understand a bit, only as much as the translator understands.

Translations can't be used to discuss the claims of contradictions, when the original version in the original language is still safe and sound.

I am tired of translations , and have decided to study Roots of the words, Arabic, grammer etc...myself to one day directly try to study the original Arabic Qur'an.

Hope you find the truth .

Edited by: asim2 on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 6:10 PM
oosman

USA
Posted - Tuesday, August 23, 2005  -  2:02 PM Reply with quote
Asim2,

I am studying the language too, and in the process I try to put my weekly lessons on line. May be you can benefit from that too:

http://zavaj.com/arabic/

(Use Internet Explorer to view these pages, and you will need Arabic fonts on your computer)
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, August 23, 2005  -  4:24 PM Reply with quote
Jazakallah for the kind offer. You are doing good work. Keep up the good work !

I want to first participate in PRL and PLL for atleast 7 hours per week.

Your help might speed up the project.

Please read :

www.studyquran.co.uk/Projects_page.htm

I am so desperate to work on such projects because the prices of many good Arabic resources are on fire e.g. Lane's Lexicon which is so important for the study of Qur'an is priced at $450, but PLL is started to offer it free to download, free for online access etc...
Similarly PRL is also very important for the study of the Qur'an.

Edited by: asim2 on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 5:56 PM
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 24, 2005  -  12:34 AM Reply with quote
you said………English to Arabic is not what is being discussed, it is Arabic to English (now don't quote this...smiling)

by giving such nonsense quote what do you consider the readers. eg the arabic word ardh is called earth in english. if we trasnlate the vice versa or english word earth into arabic then, will it have not ardh but some else. stop pls if you donot know. donot beat about the bushes.
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 24, 2005  -  1:53 PM Reply with quote
I knew you can't resist quoting something like this that's why I smiled in advance. By the way no harm smiling again !

About the beatiful comments by you. To tell you the truth I am used to seeing such comments in your posts well before you started posting on this issue so I will just ignore them.(words like nonsense/stop pls/donot beat about the bushes etc...)

Ardh might have been translated as earth by some translators but this doesn't mean Ardh only means the "entire planet earth taken as a whole" this is what earth means in English . you should not be so limited in trying to find the truth, i.e., you can't find one word and use it as a basis for your conclusion.

Can you convert each and every word in Arabic to single words in English with exactly the same meaning?
NO


By the way don't worry . Take it easy !

Edited by: asim2 on Thursday, August 25, 2005 6:37 AM
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 24, 2005  -  2:11 PM Reply with quote
The following list has been
taken from

Project Root List

at www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm

PRL is not yet complete and is in progress and information about it is available at

www.studyquran.co.uk/Projects_page.htm


Alif-Ra-Dad

2:11, 2:22, 2:27, 2:29, 2:20, 2:33, 2:36, 2:60, 2:61, 2:71, 2:107, 2:116, 2:117, 2:164, 2:164, 2:164, 2:168, 2:205, 2:251, 2:255, 2:255, 2:267, 2:273, 2:284, 3:5, 3:29, 3:83, 3:91, 3:109, 3:129, 3:133, 3:137, 3:156, 3:180, 3:189, 3:190, 3:191, 4:42, 4:97, 4:97, 4:100, 4:101, 4:126, 4:131, 4:131, 4:132, 4:170, 4:171, 5:17, 5:17, 5:18, 5:21, 5:26, 5:31, 5:32, 5:32, 5:33, 5:33, 5:36, 5:40, 5:64, 5:97, 5:106, 5:120, 6:1, 6:3, 6:6, 6:11, 6:12, 6:14, 6:35, 6:38, 6:59, 6:71, 6:73, 6:75, 6:79, 6:101, 6:116, 6:165, 7:10, 7:24, 7:54, 7:56, 7:73, 7:74, 7:74, 7:85, 7:96, 7:100, 7:110, 7:127, 7:128, 7:129, 7:137, 7:146, 7:158, 7:168, 7:176, 7:185, 7:187, 8:26, 8:63, 8:67, 8:73, 9:2, 9:25, 9:36, 9:38, 9:74, 9:116, 9:118, 10:3, 10:6, 10:14, 10:18, 10:23, 10:24, 10:24, 10:31, 10:54, 10:55, 10:61, 10:66, 10:68, 10:78, 10:83, 10:99, 10:101, 11:6, 11:7, 11:20, 11:44, 11:61, 11:64, 11:85, 11:107, 11:108, 11:116, 11:123, 12:9, 12:21, 12:55, 12:56, 12:73, 12:80, 12:101, 12:105, 12:109, 13:3, 13:4, 13:15, 13:16, 13:17, 13:18, 13:25, 13:31, 13:33, 13:41, 14:2, 14:8, 14:10, 14:13, 14:14, 14:19, 14:26, 14:32, 14:38, 14:48, 14:48, 15:19, 15:39, 15:85, 16:3, 16:13, 16:15, 16:36, 16:45, 16:49, 16:52, 16:65, 16:73, 16:77, 17:4, 17:37, 17:37, 17:44, 17:55, 17:76, 17:90, 17:95, 17:99, 17:102, 17:103, 17:104, 18:7, 18:14, 18:26, 18:45, 18:47, 18:51, 18:84, 18:94, 19:40, 19:65, 19:90, 19:93, 20:4, 20:6, 20:53, 20:57, 20:63, 21:4, 21:16, 21:19, 21:21, 21:30, 21:31, 21:44, 21:56, 21:71, 21:81, 21:105, 22:5, 22:18, 22:41, 22:46, 22:63, 22:64, 22:65, 22:65, 22:70, 23:18, 23:71, 23:79, 23:84, 23:112, 24:35, 24:41, 24:42, 24:55, 24:57, 24:64, 25:2, 25:6, 25:59, 25:63, 26:7, 26:24, 26:35, 26:152, 26:183, 27:25, 27:48, 27:60, 27:61, 27:62, 27:64, 27:65, 27:69, 27:75, 27:82, 27:87, 28:4, 28:5, 28:6, 28:19, 28:39, 28:57, 28:77, 28:81, 28:81, 28:83, 29:20, 29:22, 29:36, 29:39, 29:40, 29:44, 29:52, 29:56, 29:61, 29:63, 30:3, 30:8, 30:9, 30:9, 30:18, 30:19, 30:22, 30:24, 30:25, 30:25, 30:26, 30:27, 30:42, 30:50, 31:10, 31:16, 31:18, 31:20, 31:25, 31:26, 31:27, 31:34, 32:4, 32:5, 32:10, 32:27, 33:27, 33:27, 33:72, 34:1, 34:2, 34:2, 34:9, 34:9, 34:14, 34:22, 34:24, 35:1, 35:3, 35:9, 35:38, 35:39, 35:40, 35:41, 35:43, 35:44, 35:44, 36:33, 36:36, 36:81, 37:5, 38:10, 38:26, 38:27, 38:28, 38:66, 39:5, 39:10, 39:21, 39:38, 39:44, 39:46, 39:47, 39:63, 39:67, 39:68, 39:69, 39:74, 40:21, 40:21, 40:26, 40:29, 40:57, 40:64, 40:75, 40:82, 40:82, 41:9, 41:11, 41:15, 41:39, 42:4, 42:5, 42:11, 42:12, 42:27, 42:29, 42:31, 42:42, 42:49, 42:53, 43:9, 43:10, 43:60, 43:82, 43:84, 43:85, 44:7, 44:29, 44:38, 45:3, 45:5, 45:13, 45:22, 45:27, 45:36, 45:37, 46:3, 46:4, 46:20, 46:23, 46:33, 47:10, 47:22, 48:4, 48:7, 48:14, 49:16, 49:18, 50:4, 50:7, 50:38, 50:44, 51:20, 51:23, 51:48, 52:36, 53:31, 53:32, 54:12, 55:10, 55:29, 55:33, 56:4, 57:1, 57:2, 57:4, 57:4, 57:5, 57:10, 57:17, 57:21, 57:22, 58:7, 59:1, 59:24, 61:1, 62:1, 62:10, 63:7, 64:1, 64:3, 64:4, 65:12, 67:15, 67:16, 67:24, 69:14, 70:14, 71:17, 71:19, 71:26, 72:10, 72:12, 73:14, 73:20, 77:25, 78:6, 78:37, 79:30, 80:26, 84:3, 85:9, 86:12, 88:20, 89:21, 91:6, 99:1, 99:2
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 24, 2005  -  2:14 PM Reply with quote
Now even if you check your own translation that you have available with you, you can see whether this is translated as earth each and every time or not .
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, August 25, 2005  -  8:32 PM Reply with quote
you said……..I knew you can't resist quoting something like this that's why I smiled in advance.

another nonsense statement. you must laugh at yourself to beat about the bushes to prove yourself right. if i am resisting, are you not resisting again and again to hide your lie. If you donot know why are you beating about the bushes and why donot keep quite. why are you resisting after giving the wrong or stupid answer.

you said…….. By the way no harm smiling again !

keep on smiling but no one can see your face or dive into your conscience.

you said…… By the way don't worry . Take it easy !

u are more worried to escape yourself into some dark corner but you are not finding the way anywhere. i ask you to take it easy. donot feel trapped. if you donot know i am not calling you kafir etc though your tricks are like them.

you said……. To tell you the truth I am used to seeing such comments in your posts well before you started posting on this issue so I will just ignore them.(words like nonsense/stop pls/donot beat about the bushes etc...)

if you will continue to beat about the bushes and will not stop your nonsense talk you may come across also many other such words. be ready in advance!
Asim2

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, August 26, 2005  -  2:10 PM Reply with quote
Well looks like, I was wasting my time after all, trying to help you out. I have given enough evidence and if you are really hungry for the truth it can be sufficient for you.

I have refuted all the contradiction claims because All these claims use translations, and translations are not elidgible and can't be used for discussing such claims when the original Qur'an in the original language is still safe and sound.

The purpose of this forum has been achieved and I may not post on this forum any further.

Once again I simply ignore all these comments by you.
Bhavittre

PAKISTAN
Posted - Tuesday, August 30, 2005  -  1:50 AM Reply with quote
you said………….Well looks like, I was wasting my time after all, trying to help you out. I have given enough evidence and if you are really hungry for the truth it can be sufficient for you.

ur understanding of islam or the faith is well unserstood. in the path of allah you are considering wastage of your time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you said………….I have refuted all the contradiction claims because All these claims use translations, and translations are not elidgible and can't be used for discussing such claims when the original Qur'an in the original language is still safe and sound.

bounced back the same!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you said…………The purpose of this forum has been achieved and I may not post on this forum any further.

how acheived when you yrself said to clear one by one while you hav failed badly to prove even your first or the single claim.

you said……. Nutfa may imply to this drop or the bubble.

shit……….another big lie.
oosman

USA
Posted - Saturday, September 03, 2005  -  2:54 PM Reply with quote

http://www.zavaj.com/Views_Picture-Gallery.shtml

Edited by: Ibrahim on Monday, September 05, 2005 5:40 AM

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