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tweety

UNITED KINGDOM
Topic initiated on Tuesday, March 29, 2005  -  8:36 PM Reply with quote
a...string- of unforunate events


many people are seriously beginning to wonder why the asia south east border has become a site for tsunamis
with another one just hittin thailand and indonisia this morning...and 2000 dead...what could be the reason?
those of u with religous values would think...God is angry with them
but y?
again...ud say
oh- popular tourist attractions...drinking-partying...the lot
thats wat i thought at first
but when the second one hit...it struck me that there might be a deeper reason behind this
i mean
ppl drink and go clubbing everywhere ... even in countries with muslims in them...turkey being a prime example
so wat made thailand and the other asian countries stand out?
i gess we were all meant to learn about this disturbing fact sooner or later...its a shame it took 2 disasters for the world to realise it:

CHILD PROSTITUTION

Safeguarding the welfare of Thai women and children is a national priority for the Government of Thailand.

Of particular concern to the Royal Thai Government is the exploitation of children for the purpose of commercial sex. Young girls and boys too often are lured or forced into working in brothels and other sexually oriented establishments by profiteers.

While child prostitution is hardly unique to Thailand, its existence is repugnant to the Thai people. Thai society and culture are based on close family ties and religious values that are in direct conflict with the forced exploitation of individuals-- particularly children--for sexual or any other purpose.

A GROWING PROBLEM

Child prostitution is a growing problem worldwide. In Asia alone, according to experts on the subject, more than one million young boys and girls are engaged in commercial sexual activity. And indications are that in every part of the world the number of children being harmed in this way is growing. Child prostitutes are found in virtually every country, including the United States, France, United Kingdom, Germany and Japan. There is an apparent increasing demand, globally; part of it fed by the fear of AIDS and the naive belief that younger sex partners are free of disease.


(does the punishment and crimes of the people of Lut spring to mind?)

i hope u guys think about wat a disgusting thing this is

and realise that the people who run these agencies made a right business after the 1st tsunami...with so many orphans and no parents to watch over them....

think about how these kids feel now

and how they will grow up

their mental states

their dreams and lives shattered

and their kids too....some as young as 4

i hope u guys look up some decent charities that are working against this kinda stuff and support them with every ounce of ... well... support- u can spare

a good one would be amnesty international http://www.amnesty.org/

thanks for your time
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Wednesday, March 30, 2005  -  4:32 AM Reply with quote
The answer to this is horribly simple, and it has nothing to do with God.

This is due to global warnming and the fact that there are more natural disasters these days. South East Asia is just unlucky to be at the wrong part of the globe at the wrong time.

This is a natural disaster, has nothing to do with God imo. There are bad people all over the world and they are living far more comfortably than other good people. And vice-versa.

Natural causes are ones which can be explained through scientific analysis and reproduced through experiments. If you can somehow prove that this was not caused by nature, and that there was something supernatural behind it...then i'd beleive that God caused the tsunami and whatever other natural disasters you want.

The story of Lot claims that God had directly influenced the disaster and it far from natural. This on the other hand is proven to be natural and due to nature. Hence this cannot be compared to the story of Lot.

If you want to talk about child prostitution, then the problem is FAR worse in Russia and the ex-Soviet countries (east europe). I'm sure there are organizations contributing to the cause over there, which you could look up.

Anyways, keep donating. Once i get some profits from my first business i'll start sending money over as well.
tweety

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, March 30, 2005  -  11:14 PM Reply with quote
Natural causes are ones which can be explained through scientific analysis and reproduced through experiments. If you can somehow prove that this was not caused by nature, and that there was something supernatural behind it...then i'd beleive that God caused the tsunami and whatever other natural disasters you want.

dear....mr hu ever
em i acknowledge wat ur saying
and i also know why and how tsunamis are caused
i no theres a scientific reason for everything bla bla
im not denying that
on the contrary
i dno how much u know about islam but...u seem to be taking an active participation in the site so i hope u'll get to grips with this concept pretty soon:
almost every aspect of islam is based on science and logic
there is a scientific reason for the tsunami
but like i said...ppl that DO tend to think beyond the superficial meaning of things RELIGIOUSLY will recognise...from whatever religion they are ... that we should take a lesson from every thing..gud or bad that happens in our daily lives
whether its sumthing that influences our lives, our town-our country...or in this case the whole world
we as muslims believe theres a lesson and a sign behind everything
u can contridict that im sure- cuz u probably dont believe in that...but thats our point of view *shrugs*
however
wat u said is half true
that south eastern strip is a hot spot for tsunamis...being right next to the place where the continental and oceanic plates overlapped- so obviously they would be affected
and after shocks would take place
but atleast things like this can be piked out from such disasters- now that media attention has finally been brought to that area
and u can probably acknowledge how important media attention is right?
thanx for the reply...i totally forgot to add the 'scientific side' of things... and im glad to see uve taken this thing seriously and decided to do sumthing about it! ^_^

Edited by: tweety on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 11:16 PM
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  9:30 AM Reply with quote
Salamz ^_^

wether the events have a scientific explanation or not, there's no denying that if Allah did not allow this to happen, it would never have happened this is why heaven and hell exist.

people who are 'well off' in this life because they deal drugs or earn Hara'am money, they will get their reward for what they did in the afterlife: the eternal reward of Hell

and for those who suffered in tsunamis thanks to global warming **caused by westeners puffing on little shaytan sticks i.e cigarets and other such things** will go to Heaven Insha'Allah for their struggle. now, science has explained what happened but unfortunately it is not down to humans to explain why Allah allowed this to happen. we can only say: "It's a test from Allah, head down, start praying" to either bring comfort, take grief or fill the ever growing void that these disasters have left behind.

and we are lucky that Allah has His might hands behind all that is done and said: without Allah's judgment we would all be dead by now. ITS TRUE!!! A TSUNAMI COULD HAVE HIT ENGLAND/ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WICH IT DIDN'T HIT!!!

so really ^_^ its not Allah's fault. its all that little rule of cause and consequence: we couldn't stop polluting so Allah allowed the consequences to take place. The people of Moses (A.S) needed to be taught a lesson. The people of Noah (A.S)needed to be taught a lesson...

and now

its our turn.

stop polluting and kill all smokers before they kill themselves **its a joke people you can laugh...**


-xXx- Salamz -xXx-
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  3:05 PM Reply with quote
quote:

**its a joke people you can laugh...**


-xXx- Salamz -xXx-



I'm glad you weren't serious..."the devil's stick" LOL.

So now we have "the devil's stick" and "the devil's box." I'll be sure to keep track of the devil's inventions and their respective names .
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Thursday, March 31, 2005  -  3:13 PM Reply with quote
quote:

thanx for the reply...i totally forgot to add the 'scientific side' of things... and im glad to see uve taken this thing seriously and decided to do sumthing about it! ^_^


Hey,

I'm sorry if i tend to take the magical aspect of God's existance out of our everyday life, but i don't really beleive that God directly interferes in our daily lives, rather than they are a product of nature, and nature is a product of the big bang, and the big bang is a product of God. So technically, God is behind it, but i just don't really accept God being directly behind any of the things which happen in our lives. I'm more into the metaphorical interpretation of these parts of the Quran because they just make more sense.

But then this doesn't mean that God is not part of our lives or that he doesn't know and see what we do and help us constantly. I beleive that everything that happens is inherently good, no matter how bad it seems to be. If it were not good for us, God would not allow it. A tsunami may seem devastating and horribly bad, but this is only how we see it. This is the best which could have happened, because if the tsunami didn't happen, something so much worse could have, or it could have happened in order to avoid something else or make something good happen.

The above theory/philosophy took me a while to figure out, but once i started looking at things that way, it was nothing more than easy to accept anything bad, nomatter how bad it seemed. I can always make decisions and go on with my life being confident that this is the best way and that all i have to do is do my best and leave the rest to God. Though i don't like using the theory which you use, because that leads to a lot of questioning and doubt, because you actually beleive that God was behind this horrible event, and that he let it happen even though he could have stopped it. Thoughts like these lead a lot of people into athiesm.

Edited by: amrbassiouny on Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:15 PM
tweety

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Saturday, April 02, 2005  -  2:36 PM Reply with quote
'I'm more into the metaphorical interpretation of these parts of the Quran because they just make more sense.'

hi,
sorry but i jst wana get this clear in my head before i say anything else...
r u a muslim by any chance or ...? sorry...i jst wanted 2 make sure so i could reply accordingly...
but i didnt really mean to say that god is behind everything horrible-
but there an ayah in the quran that says everything good and bad comes from God
and anything that lets happen he lets it happen because of the deads of the people
he has made this world dependant on resources and given man authority and sense, inate guidance and revalutionary guidance to use these resources in the right way
think about it like this...
if u wanted to bake a cake
but u used the ingrediants incorrectly or in the wrong proportion
ur not really gonna get the right cake are u?
u need to use the right resources in the right proportions
and if u dnt
things like this will happen
and God lets them happen becuz it was our fault for acting like that in the first place
i hope this clears stuff up
^_^
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, April 04, 2005  -  7:33 PM Reply with quote
athiests dont really have enough patience to deal with the fact that God will test us, not wrong us **and that's why they revert to non belief sometimes**

being tested and being wronged are two totally different things: being wronged is when you steal something and get your hands chopped off, being wronged is when you deal with someone that you KNOW is dishonest and end up with about half the amount of money and respect you started off with. Allah will never do this to us **i shall explain this momentarily**

being tested is going to prison for something you didnt do, being tested is being put through rascism, being tested is being put under a crisis like a tsunami. Allah WILL test us.

Mr Person From Honkong, your new perspective is how i've spent the past half year of my life looking at stuff, and if a person who has been put through a trial or test and comes out of it thinking like that then, Insha'Allah, they have passed their test and learnt how to be PRO POSITIVITY!!!!

BUT! if they come out of a test thinking: oh God didnt help me, i wont believe in Him, this means that they have failed their test and come out of a bad experience without learning anything.

so you see, if you've been wronged, you've wronged yourself. Allah has said that He has made it Hara'am for Himself to wrong us **He loves us so much Alhamdulillah ^_^** but if we do something bad like...kill someone and then go to jail and blame God, duh we're being stoopid. and if we sit there and think: why did God let this happen?? if we have any rationality we'll remember that WE strayed from God and therefore WE bought this upon ourself. it's not a punishment its a lesson! and if we ever get out of a life sentence in prison we shalt make sure to never sin like that again. correct?

and so, becos i made a lot of points just there, im gonna scrap the conclusion :) i do hope that answered any unwritten questions/gave everyone something to think about hehe

Salamz.xXx.


Edited by: xxbasxx on Monday, April 04, 2005 7:45 PM
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Tuesday, April 05, 2005  -  6:21 PM Reply with quote
quote:

hi,
sorry but i jst wana get this clear in my head before i say anything else...
r u a muslim by any chance or ...? sorry...i jst wanted 2 make sure so i could reply accordingly...
but i didnt really mean to say that god is behind everything horrible-
but there an ayah in the quran that says everything good and bad comes from God
and anything that lets happen he lets it happen because of the deads of the people
he has made this world dependant on resources and given man authority and sense, inate guidance and revalutionary guidance to use these resources in the right way
think about it like this...
if u wanted to bake a cake
but u used the ingrediants incorrectly or in the wrong proportion
ur not really gonna get the right cake are u?
u need to use the right resources in the right proportions
and if u dnt
things like this will happen
and God lets them happen becuz it was our fault for acting like that in the first place
i hope this clears stuff up
^_^


Yes i'm a Muslim, one with very strong faith as well. But evidence proves that the Quran should not be taken literally, and that the literal interpretation of certain parts of the Quran could end in more harm than good. One example is the assassination of Anwar Il Sadat, where the fundamentalists confused Mythos with Logos, and ended up depending on God's promise to help them, where he never did because they didn't understand that it sholdn't be taken literally.

Have you ever tried to study/understand the concepts of Mythos and Logos? They are interesting. Pick up a book called "The Battle for God" by Karen Armstrong. It should widen your view on what i am talking about.

Let me quote part of that book which explains how i see things:

"Myth was regarded as primary; it was concerned with what was thought to be timeless and constant in our existence. Myth looked back at the origins of life, to the foundations of culture, and ot the deepest levels of the human mind. Myth was not concerned with practical matters, but with meaning. Unless we find some signifcance in our lives, we mortal men and women fall easily into despair. The mythos of a society provided people with a context that made sense of their day-to-day lives; it directed thier attention to the eternal and universal. It was also rooted in what we call the unconcious mind. The various mythological sotires, which were not intended to be taken literally, were an ancient form of psychology. when people told stories about heroes which descended into the underworld, struggled though labyrinths, or fhought with monsters, they were bringing to light the obscure regions of the subconcious realm, which is not accessible to purely rational investigation, but which as a profound effect upon our experience and behavior."

This is merely a part of the explanation, be sure to buy the book and give it a good read, as it is truly eye-opening when it comes to religion.
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, April 05, 2005  -  6:56 PM Reply with quote
no one comments on what i say...oh well i'll talk to myself!!

Wassalam
**from the Attention Seeker :)**
.xXx.


Edited by: xxbasxx on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 6:56 PM
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Wednesday, April 06, 2005  -  10:23 AM Reply with quote
quote:

no one comments on what i say...oh well i'll talk to myself!!

Wassalam
**from the Attention Seeker :)**
.xXx.


Edited by: xxbasxx on Tuesday, April 05, 2005 6:56 PM


I'm sorry for not replying to your promptly, i didn't realize your post was directed at me till i read it just now.

As for your point, I disagree with you here:

"BUT! if they come out of a test thinking: oh God didnt help me, i wont believe in Him, this means that they have failed their test and come out of a bad experience without learning anything."

The only way for you to prove this is to either have gone through it yourself, or know somebody else who has gone through this. It sounds nice when written, but in reality it doesn't really work that way.

As for my experience with this way of thought, is very positive, and it always brings me closer to God. It makes me patient because i KNOW it is good for me nomatter how bad it seems. But the test means that it IS bad, and that i am actually going through harm, which makes me much less optimistic and i am much less patient.

The whole test thing, just doesn't work for me. Bad things happen to good people and bad people alike, and it is more about chance than it is about God testing you. I put the "test" along with the metaphorical parts of the Quran, i don't take it literally. Maybe it works for other people, like yourself, but it doesn't work for me. And my way of doing things isn't any less hallal than your own, in fact i can argue it is better.

The people who died in the tsunami weren't being tested for anything, and they weren't all bad people. Between them were good and bad, all killed together because of a natural disaster. And since God created the universe and is in control of its order and basic natural physics (He could've created it so that it is impossible for tsunamis to hit that area), then this was a good thing, not a bad one. These people died not because they were bad or because they were being tested, but because this is the best that could have happened. Maybe if the tsunami had not killed them, then this would have been the first place for Islam to be corrupted, and then it would spread. True? We don't know. So our only way to make sense of this is to accept it as being good, not bad, in my opinion.

Most people aren't convinced by the "test" theory you present. This one makes much more sense to the people who i've talked to, especially the non-Muslims.

Edited by: amrbassiouny on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 10:28 AM
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 06, 2005  -  7:25 PM Reply with quote
Salamz and Peace ^_^

thank you for replying to my post :D


so you're basically disagreeing with every person who has ever said: this is life is a test, including God?

In Surah Mulk it says:


Who created death and life that He may try you to see which of you is best in deeds.

and in Surah Baqarah it says:


We will surely put you to trial by involving you in fear and hunger, loss of property, life and earnings. And give good tidings to those who remain steadfast in these trials: when a misfortune comes to them they say, "We are Allah's and we shall return to Him." Their Lord will bestow great blessings and mercy upon them; such are the people who are rightly guided.


i can sympathise with your decision to take some of the Qura'an metaphorically but how much of it ARE you going to take metaphorically? hopefully not all of it...?


and about the non Muslims being convinced by your way of looking at things...well a lot of non hindus think that reincarnation doesnt happen but that doesnt really effect the hindus belief in reincarnation, does it? so the fact that these non muslims agree with ... 'your' way of looking at things doesnt really affect what Islam says about life being a test. lets not worry about what they think just yet, we're still arguing upon the matter ourselves, remember?


ok so if an event not a test, its bad/good luck? or just a bad/good event? or nature's scientific experiment, aka natural phenomenon? well isnt that way of thought more depressing than thinking: God only tests those that He loves, and if I'm being tested Allah loves me?


and like the messengers of Allah were tested too.


i mean, you can say that bad things happen and that they arent neceraly tests and stuff **like a bird pooping on your head** but you can't just deny the existance of tests so bluntly.


and chances in real life don't exist. if its sunny one day, theres gonna be some form of rain the next or after a few days because of evaporation and condensation, not 'bad luck'.


o and i have a question...

are the Prophet's lives metaphors too? cos...they were tested, not handed bad luck...

.xXx. Salamz .xXx.


Edited by: xxbasxx on Wednesday, April 06, 2005 9:22 PM
AmrBassiouny

HONG KONG
Posted - Wednesday, April 06, 2005  -  8:53 PM Reply with quote
First of all, i don't disagree with anything. I just take a different approach when looking at things. I beleive they are tests as well, but i prefer to think of them in a different way, as i feel it gives me more faith and brings me closer to God.

How much should i take as metaphorical? That goes back to the principles of Mythos and Logos. It's not hard to distinguish.

As for your last question, i beleive that some of the stories of some prophets, such as Noah for example, are not accurate representations of history. The point of the stories is to convey a certain message, not to talk about something which actually happened. This also goes back to the principles of Mythos and Logos, and a lot of theological theories.

And i'm not a prophet, so i shouldn't compare myself with the prophets on being tested or not.
xxbasxx

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 06, 2005  -  9:29 PM Reply with quote
quote:

And i'm not a prophet, so i shouldn't compare myself with the prophets on being tested or not.


...what does that mean? o.O

quote:

First of all, i don't disagree with anything. I just take a different approach when looking at things. I beleive they are tests as well, but i prefer to think of them in a different way, as i feel it gives me more faith and brings me closer to God.


you should have said that from the start! you had me under a completely different cloud of thought ^_^ hee hee

quote:

How much should i take as metaphorical? That goes back to the principles of Mythos and Logos. It's not hard to distinguish.


it is for a kiddy like me.... rubbing my age in my face... =_=


what does mythos and logos mean...? im sorry, you must remember that you're talking to a 14 year old air head...

.xXx. Salamz .xXx.
Hischam khan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, April 07, 2005  -  12:48 PM Reply with quote
Assalam-u-Alaikum,

quote:

“Most people aren't convinced by the "test" theory you present. This one makes much more sense to the people who i've talked to, especially the non-Muslims.”
I think that this is merely a matter of opinion. I feel that when I only search within my soul and then glance at the environment around me, I eventually am lead to conclude that there is real purpose in all this. It does not feel as though God created everything and thenceforth sat Himself back to let it do its own bidding. Indeed, the Qur’an declares in the most beautiful manner:

He it is who created the heavens and the earth in six periods, and He is firm in power; He knows that which goes deep down into the earth and that which comes forth out of it, and that which comes down from the heaven and that which goes up into it, and He is with you wherever you are; and Allah sees what you do. (Surah Al Hadid 57:4)

quote:

“The whole test thing, just doesn't work for me. Bad things happen to good people and bad people alike, and it is more about chance than it is about God testing you.”
If bad things happen to good and bad people alike, then this precisely makes sense of the “test thing” (if you’re on about the verses in the Qur’an which state that life on earth is a test e.g. Surah Al Hud 11:7 and Al Mulk 67:2). Everyone will be recompensed in full in the hereafter. Thus, there will be no injustice as “they will not be wronged” (Surah Az-Zumar 39:69). It is those people who do not believe in an afterlife, that believe injustice is being done to them on a large scale and that therefore there cannot be a God. Think about it, on the end of the day, whether we ascribe to your view or ours, God could have stopped bad things from happening. For sure, this does not mean that when some evil happens (e.g. murder) that God wanted it to happen but rather that He allowed it for the purpose of the test on earth. After all, what would be the purpose of the test if God interefered everytime something bad happened? This is what we mean.

quote:

“I put the "test" along with the metaphorical parts of the Quran, i don't take it literally. Maybe it works for other people, like yourself, but it doesn't work for me. And my way of doing things isn't any less hallal than your own, in fact i can argue it is better.”
It is not a pick and choose thing. When there is a metaphor in a piece of literature, it would be clearly indicated, right? From the very usage and context of the words we would see that there is a metaphorical usage. Take the example of when Allah, the Exalted says that “It is He, Who causes you to die at night” (Surah Al Anam 6:60). Here it appears quite clearly as a metaphor. The similarity between death and sleep is wisely used. Hence, sleep is equated with death. I have no idea how we could possibly see the verses that state that life on earth is a test as metaphorical. Actually, I would say it only makes sense when taken literally.

quote:

“The people who died in the tsunami weren't being tested for anything, and they weren't all bad people. Between them were good and bad, all killed together because of a natural disaster. And since God created the universe and is in control of its order and basic natural physics (He could've created it so that it is impossible for tsunamis to hit that area), then this was a good thing, not a bad one. These people died not because they were bad or because they were being tested, but because this is the best that could have happened. Maybe if the tsunami had not killed them, then this would have been the first place for Islam to be corrupted, and then it would spread. True? We don't know. So our only way to make sense of this is to accept it as being good, not bad, in my opinion.”
I see a contradiction in the above words of yours. While on the one hand you agree that we cannot know why the Tsunami happened, when as you stated, God could have made things in such a way that they never happen, on the other hand you state they did not die because they were being tested or because they were bad. It could be the case that all the above hold true. Thus, God would be testing some, punishing others who were evil and even bringing about good through it too.

Lastly, your view sounds very much like that of some famous scientists (i.e. that God created everything but then became careless about it). No, that is not what you are saying, yet there is a similarity. What you must understand is that when we say that God is behind certain phenomena of nature, we are not denying the natural processes that occur which bring about these natural phenomena. We are only saying that it is God Who does this. Had He pleased these things would never have happened. Hey, are we actually in agreement here perhaps, it almost sounds like it, come to think of it. Anyway, while we may say that God is doing a certain thing, it is beyond us to know “how” He does it. So, when God says that He is responsible for bringing rain from the sky, God knows how He does it and however He does do it, it does not negate the processes that enable rain drops to fall.

regards
Hischam khan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Thursday, April 07, 2005  -  1:27 PM Reply with quote
Like the colourful posts, Bas! How about you try and add all colours of the rainbow next time, eh?

Salaam

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