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Junaidj

CANADA
Topic initiated on Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  9:47 AM Reply with quote
Muslim, Violence and the West


A Muslim murdered Van Gogh in Holland for his documentary which insulted Islam. As a consequence many mosques and Muslim schools were burnt.

The same parallel was witnessed in Nepal, when as a consequence of Nepalese being killed in Iraq, Muslim mosques and Korans were burnt in Nepal.

True for events in India as in Godhra, as well as in the US post 9/11.

Even Palestine, where suicide bombs are answered by the shelling of tanks on a large scale.

Question: Why do Muslims resort to violence? Contrary to what we observe, does it make them feel any safer?

Question: If Muslims immigrate to the West, do they not realize that such countries have their own laws and liberal environs, in which they can criticise even Jesus. Why go there and create mayhem if one does not gel with that place?

Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:54 AM
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  2:47 PM Reply with quote

You're asking questions that writers/scholars have been going crazy, writing book-sellers on. If you'd like, I could look up some book references for you, and anyone else interested. Of course, everyone has their own theory. Why do you think Muslims have strongly come to be associated with violence (of their own doing)?
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  7:51 PM Reply with quote
>>Why do you think Muslims have strongly come to be associated with violence (of their own doing)?

There now I am careful with the replying :)

My opinion, for whatever it is worth :), is on the widespread belief in unauthentic or perhaps grossly misunderstood Hadith. Please see the forum on 'Tawheen i Risalat' on that.

But my question remains, why go to a place and cause mayhem, when a person knows what he can anticipate?
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  8:50 PM Reply with quote
quote:

>>Why do you think Muslims have strongly come to be associated with violence (of their own doing)?

There now I am careful with the replying :)

My opinion, for whatever it is worth :), is on the widespread belief in unauthentic or perhaps grossly misunderstood Hadith. Please see the forum on 'Tawheen i Risalat' on that.

But my question remains, why go to a place and cause mayhem, when a person knows what he can anticipate?


I think, Junaid, its not so much about causing mayhem where something can be anticipated; rather, its the lack of anticipation - the shock.

I'll give you my personal example. When I got my admission letter from LUMS, I had a fair idea of what the 'environment' would be like, and I knew that it would be in direct contrast to where I came from i.e. my family background. I still decided to go, for education was my purpose (perhaps, for emmigrants to the West too, their cost-benefit analysis rests in favour of more immediate concerns, initially). When I entered, it was a shock, despite what I had anticipated. Getting familiar with dearest KZ only helped highlight the shock, but then, it also helped me discover myself. Its valuable to be fighting against the odds. Its a learning, maturing experience. I reacted at first, and created some controversy in a few ranks at LUMS. Gradually, I started minding my own business and doing things in my own capacity. I was fortunate to get guidance and support. These persons that you're referring to, may not have found that shoulder or that ear.

So, this was an answer empathising with the reactionaries. As for those who don't control themselves, no matter what, its another story - one that Allah knows best.

Wasalaam.

Saadia
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  9:35 PM Reply with quote
Fellow Luminite :) Have we met?

But anyways, I would never empathise with murderers, preachers of hate and bigotry. That does not require faith or education to know, simply some common sense and general decency.

In my opinion, the quest for material progress takes them there and then they become quite religious, start importing fundamentalist Mullahs and go berserk. They end up denouncing the same material progress, they went to acquire there. Its like coming back full circle.

Quite strange was the blend of third generation UK Muslim guys with beards but with spiked up hair, denouncing democracy and wanting Islam. Why not migrate back to their original countries?

What is the point of living in a environ one does not like, criticising it all the time? Shouldn't people grow up?

Edited by: junaidj on Friday, November 19, 2004 12:55 AM
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004  -  7:28 AM Reply with quote
quote:

I would never empathise with murderers, preachers of hate and bigotry. That does not require faith or education to know, simply some common sense and general decency.


Sure. Now, you're coming up with answer! I think, no one in their right mind would support murder, preaching of hatred or bigotry. I was talking for those who find themselves shocked by the expanses of a new culture, and as a result, seek to exercise the power of their speech and pen, to criticise, to influence. I think everyone has that right, no matter whether they are stationed in their homeland or elsewhere, but then again, everything has its limits too. So we need to contain that, short of the three ailments delineated above.

Wasalaam.

Saadia
Junaidj

CANADA
Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004  -  8:38 AM Reply with quote
>>Now, you're coming up with answer!

Just to qualify. An opinion, which may not be the answer.

>>I think, no one in their right mind would support murder, preaching of hatred or bigotry.

Many Muslims in the West do. And people back home think Islam is in danger :) The level of fanaticism I have observed in Canadian mosques is unbelievable. Not only from the first generation but second generation Muslims as well.

I have heard sermons in a Canadian mosque, where mostly University students attend, asking people to teach children that Jews are our enemies.

I have met an educated Engineer, who holds an MSc from Alberta, glorifying murder on Tawheen i Risalat.

I have seen BBC showing young third/fourth generation Muslims in the UK denouncing democracy.

The death threats on Irshad Manji by Western Muslims, or on Muslim stand up comedian woman in the UK, only buttress the above opinion. The recent Van Gogh murder?

>>seek to exercise the power of their speech and pen, to criticise, to influence. I think everyone has that right, no matter whether they are stationed in their homeland or elsewhere...

The point I am trying to make is that rather than Muslims denouncing democracy and liberal values, wailing Islam is in danger, why not migrate to a different place where they feel more comfortable. It is as simple as that.

After all the Amish in the US and the Hutterites in Canada have done that. They have formed their own communities and rather than harping about the decadence of others, they are busy leading productive spiritual lives according to their understanding of their scriptures.

Edited by: junaidj on Friday, November 19, 2004 8:45 AM
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, November 27, 2004  -  10:24 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE OF MADAM SAADIA MALIK (With apology Please)

Although this topic is different but meanings are also different. I can understand the remnants of the disputed topic being discussed in the distant forums in the occult way.

QUOTE: I was talking for those who find themselves shocked by the expanses of a new culture, and as a result, seek to exercise the power of their speech and pen, to criticise, to influence. (November 19, 2004) Forum, “Muslim violence and West”.

As you promised in one of your emails to me, I am feeling free to discuss with you. I respect you in my heart and kindly do not mind, let me free for a while to keep every thing in front of you.

It must be remembered that my exercise of the power of my speech, pen, criticism and influence will feel absolutely NO discrimination among those who say or support something like 2+2=3. I have not joined this web site for spoon feeding me, nodding my head and saying Wah Wah Wah Wah only. I have all the sense to differentiate between black & white and red & white.

I have also come across a mixture of the comments (like quoted above) by you, in some other forums too, like ignoring and putting such people like me into abyss. No doubt the people like me can be ignored but their exercise of the power of their speech, pen, criticism and influence can not be put into abyss which may run parallel in each and every forum till centrifuging only the truth on the surface which the people demand. But I assure that I will do admire the facts. I am not at all as being projected.

I am sorry to say that I am wondered of these words by an Islamic researcher. What does it mean? Is putting such people into the abyss is the aim, success or failure of this website. Is purpose of this website is only to impose the knowledge being a perfect personality, not getting the knowledge from others considering them just stupid. Is it bigotry or bigotraaaa, the offenders of which consider themselves the contractors of Islam and paradise and furthermore consider themselves exempted from the accountability? Is abyss has some special username or password that is not known to the others?

I am now really feeling that “Blood is thicker than water”. Isn’t it? What do you mean please by a new culture? I am sorry to say that, Is Quranic solution being not accepted because it is 1425 years old? Do people want a latest edition, Nauzbe-Allah, according to the new disco, burger family or violin family culture? I am sorry to say that the scholar have failed to define, new culture, old culture and bigotry. If someone is giving the reference of Quran for solution of some problem, Is it bigotry? Or “Blood is thicker than water”. I say, this is bigotry on the part of the scholars whose frustration is creating a fenestration in the foundation of the boat for transportation of the people to paradise.

There must be some solution to satisfy logically such difficult students. Has God born such people to put into abyss? If the teacher has no answer, why does he try to blame the students? Am I wrong? .

If I say about an evidenced based programme according to the national and international format, for the new concept presented, on which I am emphasising then why your research process seem to be paralysed here. Which types of researches do you do in Islam? What are the principles and the parameters? Let the new supposed culture/concept present to the concerned people who will show a huge dustbin; perhaps we do not know the market values and want to throw those into abyss who want to help knowing the principles to help the ailing people on the solid grounds.

I agree with all to solve the problem but “Why is it being wanted to subject the people to an unproven strategy?” This is not the problem of one person but all of us. Suppose I advise this way of the treatment to some patient, what answer will I give to someone who ask me for the reference or ground on which I am standing. This is the only what I mean and want. I am wondered, “Why do people not accept healthy criticism”. “What is the wisdom behind it” Is it a product of the frustration as brother “thinking” from USA said?

Mind that “Homosexuality guilt” is a pure health problem i.e. which is the domain of only health institutions and role of Islamic scholar is only to condemn “Homosexuality” or other related problems for which I will never interfere. Do not take “Homosexuality”, “Homosexuality guilt” and “Confronting the truth on present or past scholars” one and the same problem. These are three different entities. My objection is only on the way of treatment of “Homosexuality guilt” Is there no other option except the only unproven claim. I mean to use it through the proper channel so that it must help not only the patients but also all the undergraduate and postgraduate medical students to write their thesis and dissertations and the reference can be quoted anywhere in the world as a solid witness.That’s all. I hope that being an Islamic researcher you must have understood my point.

As being emphasised in different forums indirectly, if the claims are appealing you, then help Mr. Junaid for his following quotes to convince others and me logically, to bring the truth forward.

Quote1: I have made a claim based on my study and opinion. (November 12, 2004)-H.guilt
Quote2: I have researched on this topic extensively. (November 16, 2004)-H.guilt
Quote3: I am through with unfounded and baseless traditions. (November 12, 2004)-De sex…

The moderator suggested that I need further reading and I admit, as every body is a student throughout the life. Please convince me logically to highlight the results of the studies done, separately for the each as the following headings, to create a base and the foundation of the claim, for the academic purpose to help the needy students.
1. Name and address (mailing & email) of the person (Psychologist/ Psychiatrist)
under the supervision of which the study was conducted………..
2. Type of the study……………………..
3. Material & method of the study……….
4. Locality of the patients………………..
5. Estimated duration of the study……….
6. Actual duration of the study…………..
7. Total number of the patients…………..
8. Mean age of the patients………………
9. Median age of the patients:……………
10. Sex of the patients……………………
11. Race of the patients………………….
12. Religion of the patients……………..
13. Marital status………………………..
14. Etiological factors…………………….
15. Predisposing factors…………………..
16. Symptomology……………………….
17. Concurrent disorders………………….
18. Any addiction………………………..
19. How many did need medical help?….
20. How many were sentenced to jail?……
21. How many were punished?……………
22. True positive cases:……………………
23. False positive cases…………………..
24. True negative cases…………………..
25. False negative cases………………….
26. Sensitivity and specificity……………
27. Incidence…………………………….
28. Prevalence……………………………
29. ‘P’ Value……………………………..
30. Formulae applied…………………….
31. Abstract………………………………
32. Discussions…………………………..
33. Bibliography…………………………
34. Any others……………………………
35. Name of the HEALTH JOURNALS (national or international) where published (with Vol, Year & page No)…….

In health there is no hit and trial method but evidence based. I think, I have been assessed wrongly. I am not a religious fundamentalist but claimed according to the rules and regulations set all over the world regarding health. For example I can never project something on the basis of my own experience unless and until passed through a set process when it can not be denied by any one and is given the status of a text book for open practice. If we can read the medical books of Hindu authors like K. Das, PJ Kumar etc why not those of new Muslim authors.

I MUST BE REMEMBERED THAT MY AIM IS NOT TO CONVINCE THE MODERATOR OR HIS HELPERS BUT TO CREATE THE AWARENESS FOR THE READERS ON THE LOGICAL AND SCIENTIFIC BASIS.

Mind that I am neither a scholar nor a Mullah. The Islamic knowledge I have, must be for a Muslim. My objection is on the basis of my training in the health institution.

According to Allama Iqbal.

Tundi o bade e mukhalif se na ghabraa ay uqaab
Yeh to chaltii hay tujhe unchaa urhaney kay le a

These Urdu words mean, “Do not worry (Eagle) if a fast wind blows in the opposite direction, this is to fly you high”
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, November 28, 2004  -  6:15 PM Reply with quote
surgeonakhlaq, Assalaamu Alaikum.

I was away for a day or so, and now that I am accessing the site again, I come across this post of yours. I have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. If I've corresponded with you over email, please rest assured, I was not aware of your forum ID. That doesn't make a difference to me. Everyone's equal. Also, you're talking as if I indirectly attacked you, or was sarcastic towards something applicable on you. I have no idea of your situation, circumstances, etc. I don't see why you're reading too much into my posts. Whatever I wrote was out of general concern; I had not a single specific person in mind. If anything, I referred to my own circumstances in a post. That's all.

Saadia
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 02, 2004  -  12:55 AM Reply with quote
Dear Madam Saadia Malik, Waalaikum’Assalam

Yes madam, you are right as the time is over. Now the time is to forget the things, as it is useless to take up old quarrels.

In short, what I meant was, “Every one has the right to be satisfied based on the solid evidence only, by one who asserts”. If unable to prove, must not beat about the bushes and a third, fourth and so on, must intervene to solve the problem before the discussion takes the difficult turn to reach some misfortune, otherwise according to me our gathering here seems not to be fruitful. The truth must always be regarded regardless of the religion and person who is speaking or writing. Do not mind please as I am saying in general.

Some people, like me, are very much difficult to be handled by someone with wrinkles on the forehead on one hand but very much easy on the other hand by a smaller piece of pity. It must be remembered that the second way is more powerful and if one is unable to adapt it unintentionally then the other one must do otherwise a third person must do intervene before appearing a critical situation as it is often impossible for the two to overcome the situation at their own. Perhaps we do not know the reward of this deed. Today I also want to remind this teaching of Islam to all the readers.

It must not be forgotten that we Muslims are brothers and sisters and such types of problems, confusions or misunderstandings are not unusual even between the real brothers and sisters but the relationship of brotherhood is never ever broken. I am sorry and apologise as my post hurt you.

So far as your quote “I don't see why you're reading too much into my posts” is concerned, I read all the posts carefully not a single time but sometimes multiple times too, and I have not yet come across such problem with someone anywhere at the site, how much I have gone through, except one whom I am avoiding deliberately and on the other hand it would have had made no difference if I were have had avoided you too. The loss of rest assurance was not primary but secondary to the situation and the circumstances and furthermore perhaps due to increased threshold of our minds, which respond to increased sympathetic nervous impulses. Can you imagine, “How much did I remain disturbed last days?” I needed a smaller piece of pity, which I could not found anywhere, so “a desperate man, all things can” and it can’t be denied by anyone.

Suppose if someone produces multiple vectors (or effects) of difference magnitudes and directions; it then always has a resultant vector, the magnitude and direction of which determines the net effect (I mean, intentions), if can not be understood clearly by someone, God is “Samee & Baseer” and the Hadith “Innamal, Aamalo, Binneyyaat” Can you recall the person forgiven by God, after one hundred murders and why not those be forgiven who can’t even think of this crime? I mean to give this example of the Hadith here, not saying about the persecutory and paranoid delusions, which some people sometimes surely have. We must always have a firm belief and fear of Allah Almighty only and bilateral patience, which is done assured on my part in the future but NO compromise on understanding something without a solid evidence in a generous way by anyone.

May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
saadiamalik

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 02, 2004  -  4:52 AM Reply with quote
quote:

Yes madam, you are right as the time is over. Now the time is to forget the things, as it is useless to take up old quarrels.



I am afraid I really don't understand. What old quarrels? You can go on and doubt my intentions, or you can answer this, because I don't recall communicating with you, least of all, quarrelling.

quote:

So far as your quote “I don't see why you're reading too much into my posts” is concerned, I read all the posts carefully not a single time but sometimes multiple times too, and I have not yet come across such problem with someone anywhere at the site, how much I have gone through, except one whom I am avoiding deliberately and on the other hand it would have had made no difference if I were have had avoided you too.


Again, this is beyond me. I realise that such blame games are wasting people's time here, so either you can answer my confusions, or let's forget about it. Allah Knows Best, and He'll treat us with justice eventually.

Wasalaam.
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Thursday, December 02, 2004  -  8:54 PM Reply with quote
Madam, you are confusing.

I had no quarrel with you at all but saying about those, which you do not know. I am wondered that why you don’t know?”

I am getting help from you and you have some different response. Why????
You need rest.

Wassalam
surgeonakhlaq

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, December 04, 2004  -  9:03 PM Reply with quote
Assalaamu’alaikum, Dear Madam.

This post is just to remove the confusions or misunderstandings in some posts not to discuss further, so far as I am concerned.

1. I used the word quarrels not as quarrels but as a proverb, “Taking up old quarrels” which has some different meanings.

2. “I am wondered that why you didn’t know” was about the problems during the discussions in the “homosexuality guilt” forum. I was phobic/hesitating to mention the name of the forum and the moderator to avoid something new to disturb the peace, because may I be unable to be patient to some remark. But I am sorry even to write these words.

3. “I am getting help from you and you are giving me some different response” was about knowing some thing about the “New culture” that you mentioned in one of your post and about intervention of a third, fourth etc persons before appearing some critical situation between the two persons at some forum, as it is often impossible for the two to overcome the situation at their own. You did not touch these two points, therefore I have to say, “I am getting help from you and you are giving me some different response”

As these three points were not difficult to understand for you by my detailed posts, I said to you that you needed rest, as might be tired due to overwork. This was the all story, which caused we both brother and sister confused. Now we will, Inshaallah, be free of all the confusions and misunderstandings. May Allah help us, Aameen.

This post is only and only to remove to confusions or misunderstandings not to discuss further so far as I am concerned but if something has to be still cleared, you are most welcomed.
tweety

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Tuesday, December 07, 2004  -  10:56 PM Reply with quote
in reply 2 the ORIGINAL question
...
just cuz one or two muslims kill a few important blokes
dnt mean islam is a bad religion
nore does it mean muslims dnt no hw 2 get on with others
and it doesnt mean we promote violence ether
infact
its strictly forbidden in Islam by Allah 4 us 2 attack ne1 unless weve bn attackd
so if u do that
then ur goin agenst allahs rules
therefore ur not a muslim
i mean
luk at sum of the strong faithful christians **il let ur imagination run wild here...**
they go around killin a million and one defensless ppl
but that doesnt mean christianity is a violent religion
ryt?

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